tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post113908497710912268..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: How J. Gresham Machen helped (and revolutionized) a young convertPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16863765987227640762007-09-09T17:17:00.000-07:002007-09-09T17:17:00.000-07:00I just started "What is Faith?" a few days ago, an...I just started "What is Faith?" a few days ago, and the introduction alone seems like it was written just a couple hours ago in respect to how he he speaks of the unashamed bashing of the intellect from the modernists and pragmatists of his day. I highly recommend the introduction! (I'll have to get back to you on the rest of the book, but from what I've read and heard of his other works, I don't expect this one to be much different in regard to quality. A man of faith doesn't commit apostacy when he is controlled by the Spirit.)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03233692229059442432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139758771778578212006-02-12T07:39:00.000-08:002006-02-12T07:39:00.000-08:00I appreciate the more congenial tone and the broad...I appreciate the more congenial tone and the broader perspective. Still can't agree with your criticisms, however.<BR/><BR/><B>First</B>, I daresay that whatever is good about dispensationalism, comes not so much <I>from</I> the Reformed, as <I>from the same place</I> as the Reformed: that is, from the Bible.<BR/><BR/><B>Second</B>, as I've said, one of the greatest Reformation changes was the embrace of grammatico-historical exegesis. The other Reformed doctrines arise out of its implementation on Paul's letters. It could be argued that dispensationalism's core and distinctive doctrines arise from its implementation on prophetic scriptures. <BR/><BR/><B>Third</B>, I've run into the attitude among some Reformed that Calvin, Luther, Owen, Edwards and the gang mined all the gold out of the hills. That leaves us to read stories about those grand old days when there was still gold to be mined, and to reminisce, and admire those miners, who stripped the hills bare. That sort of attitude makes a kind of sense in Roman Catholicism. It doesn't, among Biblically-oriented Christians.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139697186841059442006-02-11T14:33:00.000-08:002006-02-11T14:33:00.000-08:00To clarify, dispensationalism is just an example o...To clarify, dispensationalism is just an example of the tendency, I repeat tendency, toward anti-intellectualism. I know many dispensationalists are very intelligent men, and very staunch on the essentials of Christianity, and that anti-intellectualism isn't their invention, but they're just another example of the inherent anti-intellectualism that creeps up in all of us when we are suspicious of God's use of the means of the church's teaching office to illuminate Scripture (not that I affirm implicit faith in the church's teaching office, that's the Roman extreme--prove all things, hold fast to the accurate, reject the erroneous). <BR/><BR/>Dispensationalism became the favored eschatological option of those fundamentalists who were so burned by the liberals' tendency to explain away the Faith by their "intellectualism," causing the fundamentalist overreaction to distort the faith in some ways, such as dispensationalism, among other things, like the simplistic manner of teaching opted by so many, which touches all of their doctrine, to varying degrees. Notice, there is a difference between simple (making the complex understandable) and simplistic (denying complexity in the complex and presenting it in a cartoonish version of itself). <BR/><BR/>It's just interesting to me that everything that's right about dispensationalism, they got from their orthodox Reformed forefathers, and every change I've seen them make does nothing but bring them back into closer proximity to the position of those orthodox Reformed forefathers. Which raises the question: why bother to divert from the faith handed down to them in the first place, if they keep having to make such corrections?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139340447062001242006-02-07T11:27:00.000-08:002006-02-07T11:27:00.000-08:00djp - I'm sure he loved many dispensationalists, b...djp - I'm sure he loved many dispensationalists, but yes, indubitably he wasn't a fan of dispensationalis<B>m</B> ;-) <BR/><BR/>tulipgirl - my Dad, first name John, almost got second name Machen (see the connection above) but my Grandmother won that argument and he ended up without a second name. In Norn Ireland it could amount to child abuse to call a boy Machen. No doubt it'd work better in the US though :Détrangèrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02802871565840479439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139330272539941042006-02-07T08:37:00.000-08:002006-02-07T08:37:00.000-08:00Sorry to double post... but you're right. My avata...Sorry to double post... but you're right. My avatar gives that almost disapproving look to everyone....<BR/><BR/>It's awesome...Darelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06253863496769360853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139330209345262122006-02-07T08:36:00.000-08:002006-02-07T08:36:00.000-08:00Just checkin'... ;)Just checkin'... ;)Darelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06253863496769360853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139323997092620742006-02-07T06:53:00.000-08:002006-02-07T06:53:00.000-08:00No.No.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139321661063383642006-02-07T06:14:00.000-08:002006-02-07T06:14:00.000-08:00Out of curiosity, would you say that you were insp...Out of curiosity, would you say that you were inspired by God through the words of Machen?Darelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06253863496769360853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139286854101130932006-02-06T20:34:00.000-08:002006-02-06T20:34:00.000-08:00(If Blogger doesn't crash and lose my bee-yooty-fu...(If Blogger doesn't crash and lose my bee-yooty-full post again!)<BR/><BR/><B>étrangère</B> -- thanks for your delightful and gracious response, and for the good suggestion. And you're related to a real-live bona fide author-of-a-book-I've-seen; that's very cool. (I'm guessing Grandpa didn't love dispensationalists, either.)<BR/><BR/><B>tulipgirl</B> -- so, what are the other four named? If you're naming #5 "Machen" because of this essay -- good thing I didn't write about Theophylact of Mopsuestia... or <A HREF="http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/O/Oecolamp.asp" REL="nofollow">Oecolampadius</A>! (c;<BR/><BR/><B>James</B>, thanks for the encouragement.<BR/><BR/>Thanks, <B>Carlos</B>. I think your picture's grown a little backwards, too!DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139277281616499222006-02-06T17:54:00.000-08:002006-02-06T17:54:00.000-08:00capt. headknowledge -- yes, you do seem to have so...<B>capt. headknowledge</B> -- yes, you do seem to have some issues with what you see as dispensationalism. But to try to stay with the subject, as I demonstrated, you can't lay denigration of teaching, doctrine, study, or Bible teaching at the doorstep of dispensationalism. You may not like its doctrines, but it has always emphasized (and grew out of) Bible study, teaching, and preaching.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139263381847667852006-02-06T14:03:00.000-08:002006-02-06T14:03:00.000-08:00Dan: Thanks so much for the post; informative & he...Dan: Thanks so much for the post; informative & helpful! Perhaps you and the pyros can include/post a list of books very much worth reading here on the blog.<BR/><BR/>FYI ~ I, too, am formerly of the classical pentacostal/charismatic bent which means that...<BR/><BR/>ian: oops, I guess I'm stumbling backwards, then...<BR/>¡SBGTFA!IB Dubbyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14110161040854928853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139239811590956592006-02-06T07:30:00.000-08:002006-02-06T07:30:00.000-08:00Yes,that's true, moonlight -- but Machen did flirt...Yes,that's true, <B>moonlight</B> -- but Machen did flirt with liberalism. Machen was immensely impressed with Wilhelm Herrmann, who was basically a total liberal. As Piper quotes Machen writing his mother during this period:<BR/><BR/>"I have been thrown all into confusion by what he says —so much deeper is his devotion to Christ than anything I have known in myself during the past few years ... Herrmann affirms very little of that which I have been accustomed to regard as essential to Christianity; yet there is no doubt in my mind but that he is a Christian, and a Christian of a peculiarly earnest type. He is a Christian not because he follows Christ as a moral teacher; but because his trust in Christ is (practically, if anything even more truly than theoretically) unbounded ..."<BR/><BR/>These were the stormy times that honed his understanding, and fit him for the service by which he'd make his lasting mark.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139239561688095762006-02-06T07:26:00.000-08:002006-02-06T07:26:00.000-08:00djp, this is an excellent post. The weaving in of...djp, this is an excellent post. The weaving in of your personal testimony and theological journey with the encouragements to connect with Machen show how vital it is that we who are alive now make the effort to learn from our spiritual ancestors and in that way show a unity of God's people on essential doctrine throughout history.<BR/><BR/>Good stuff.Momohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04292177473341691525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139238740058912342006-02-06T07:12:00.000-08:002006-02-06T07:12:00.000-08:00Many of the Christians I came to know were Charism...<EM>Many of the Christians I came to know were Charismatics whose attitude towards study and doctrine ranged from suspicion to open hostility. It was "carnal" to study too hard. Doctrine and "head-knowledge" was "of the flesh," not of the Spirit. Study made one proud, boastful, unspiritual.</EM><BR/><BR/>Sounds like Baptists to me.Momohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04292177473341691525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139236500369972072006-02-06T06:35:00.000-08:002006-02-06T06:35:00.000-08:00My major is historical theology, and my main teach...My major is historical theology, and my main teacher these past four years introduced me to Machen. In fact, his doctoral dissertation was on Machen's early education in Germany. His approach to history and education was mindblowing to me. The fact that he came out of places like Marburg without being a flaming liberal is a testimony to God's faithfulness. You should read the book. It's called "Toward a Sure Faith: J. Gresham Machen and the Dilemma of Biblical Criticism, 1881-1915" by Terry A. Chrisope.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00778739900054130935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139199169497600482006-02-05T20:12:00.000-08:002006-02-05T20:12:00.000-08:00DJP,I would even go as far to say if someone has a...DJP,<BR/><BR/>I would even go as far to say if someone has a healthy attitude toward studying and doctrine becoming a pentecostal is unavoidable. <BR/><BR/>IanIanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13858057932102156264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139198007667705692006-02-05T19:53:00.000-08:002006-02-05T19:53:00.000-08:00Of interest: http://www.theopedia.comOf interest: <BR/><BR/>http://www.theopedia.comAaron Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03385127979306952044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139178048130198712006-02-05T14:20:00.000-08:002006-02-05T14:20:00.000-08:00djp - I would apologise for making you say a Frenc...djp - I would apologise for making you say a French word... except that I'm not apologetic ;-) - how bout this: when you find yourself reading or saying(!) a French word, pray for the French-speaking church in Europe :) <BR/><BR/>Yes I do thank God for a rich heritage. Unfortunately I didn't know my grandfather so he didn't tell me himself - he saw me once and died soon after, although they assure me the two weren't causally connected. I'm gradually trying to form a fuller idea of him and reading Machen helped a lot! He studied under Machen at Princeton which prepared him for objecting to the modernist heresy he found on his return to his denomination's Theological College in N.Ireland. My copy of C&L is his, complete with notes etc. :) <A HREF="http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/item_detail.php?4367" REL="nofollow">He wrote himself</A> actually (yeah, shameless & sentimental plug). Anyway, back to Machen :D ...étrangèrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02802871565840479439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139177553538927572006-02-05T14:12:00.000-08:002006-02-05T14:12:00.000-08:00A few examples of Dispensationalism's unwarranted ...A few examples of Dispensationalism's unwarranted divisions:<BR/><BR/>Israel and the Church; <BR/><BR/>Receiving Christ as Savior and receiving Him as Lord; <BR/><BR/>Repentance, namely, confessing one's sins and turning from one's sins; <BR/><BR/>faith and faithfulness; <BR/><BR/>Old Testament and New Testament;<BR/><BR/>Law and Grace . . . <BR/><BR/>I know some Dispensationalists have returned to recognizing the inviolable unity of at least some of these doctrines. Yet it is a testimony to the questionable origin of that tradition which featured many, if not all, of these and other errors before they were exposed to the light of day and pressured into returning to orthodoxy. <BR/><BR/>Sorry for diverting the topic into a hermeneutics debate, but from my perspective it's the source of so many biblical things being divided--chief among these, headknowledge and heartknowledge! <BR/><BR/>Just why is it that so many preachers cannot extol the virtues of the power of the Spirit in leading us into all truth while at the same time upholding the value of the ministry of God's gifts to the church, namely, the gifts of pastors and teachers? To them, you either rely on the Spirit, or you rely on "the wisdom of men;" they just can't bring themselves to admit that God uses the means of godly, albeit, uninspired (hence the nobility of the Bereans) teachers to pass on the torch of truth from one generation of the church to next, while utilizing those very means themselves? They seem to assume we understand this, if they understand it at all themselves, yet the ferocity with which they preach against it leads the uninformed to fear Christian scholarship, opting for the subjectivity of their own misunderstanding of Scripture, assuming that the variant conclusions to which they come must be the product of the Holy Spirit rather than their own ignorance.<BR/><BR/>Again, headknowledge and heartknowledge is not an either/or proposition, but a both/and proposition. I mean this in the sense of the classic Protestant definition of faith as 1)knowledge of the Law and Gospel, 2)assent to the truth of the Law and Gospel, and 3)trust in the God of the Law and the Gospel. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for reminding me to read Machen, I haven't personally read enough of him, but have always intended to get to him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139177448062779912006-02-05T14:10:00.000-08:002006-02-05T14:10:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139152850037397382006-02-05T07:20:00.000-08:002006-02-05T07:20:00.000-08:00ian, sorry, didn't mean anything by skipping you. ...<B>ian</B>, sorry, didn't mean anything by skipping you. You're saying that you're a "pentecostal with a healthy attitude toward studying and doctrine"? Praise God for the latter part! I know such do exist -- though I still do find, in conversation, that they are the minority, and still looked on with suspicion by their peers. Stay in the Word, grow in your appreciation of its richness and sufficiency.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139151264981806412006-02-05T06:54:00.000-08:002006-02-05T06:54:00.000-08:00Student of History, thanks for that link; it's def...<B>Student of History</B>, thanks for that link; it's definitely a point worth making.<BR/><BR/><B>Screaming Pirate </B> -- it's a sign from God! He's telling you, "Read Machen, Screamer." (I hope you know I'm kidding. Except for the "read Machen" part.)<BR/><BR/><B> Impacted Wisdom Truth</B> -- I don't know Winslow. Care to say a brief word about him? Unless he's, you know, eeevil?<BR/><BR/><B>"Capt. HeadKnowledge"</B> -- people who don't agree with us will raise an eyebrow at someone with your screenie commending my article! [grin] Thanks for the encouragement. You ask, wrt dividing what shouldn't, "Is this the product of Dispensationalism?" The short answer is, No. Leading dispensationalists have stressed and/or modelled the teaching, preaching, and study of the Word (Maclain, Ryrie, Swindoll, MacArthur, etc.). If dispensationalism is to be faulted, it can't be on that account.<BR/><BR/><B>étrangère</B> [agh! you made me say a French word!] -- That's a neat connection. Did he tell you about hearing Machen? It sounds as if you have a rich family legacy. Thanks for the book-tip; I'll have to read GT. After <I>What Is Faith?</I>, I got every book of his I could find and ate them up.<BR/><BR/>And finally thanks for the kind words, <B>Steve</B>.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139143843091060792006-02-05T04:50:00.000-08:002006-02-05T04:50:00.000-08:00Thanks for this post. My Grandfather was lectured...Thanks for this post. My Grandfather was lectured by Machen and was then in a similar situation to him in N.Ireland, also ending up (being forced into) forming a new denomination, which, as with Machen, wasn't his intention. I've been discovering more of Machen recently - Christianity and Liberalism is indeed a brilliant book. There is also of course his 'God Transcendent'.étrangèrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02802871565840479439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139142832363436842006-02-05T04:33:00.000-08:002006-02-05T04:33:00.000-08:00Dear Dan,Thank you very much for your wonderful te...Dear Dan,<BR/><BR/>Thank you very much for your wonderful testimony of the link between "headknowledge" and true faith. I shall refer this post to many of my friends and readers. <BR/><BR/>Oh, how we all need to learn how our objective theological education and our subjective experience of communion or, as it is commonly called today,"relationship," with our triune Lord should go hand in hand. <BR/><BR/>Modern evangelicals are great at dividing so many things that should never be separated. Is this the product of Dispensationalism, among whose chief values is "rightly dividing the word of truth"? The Christian Faith and Life (notice, they go together, aka, Doctrine and Practice, Belief and Behavior, or as Rick Warren's now splitting it up, "Creeds and Deeds")is not an "Either/Or" proposition, but a "Both/And" proposition. <BR/><BR/>Onward, Christian Soldier!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1139133558508882012006-02-05T01:59:00.000-08:002006-02-05T01:59:00.000-08:00Well said. An author that has influenced my faith...Well said. An author that has influenced my faith to a similar extent is Octavius Winslow; I highly recommend his book The Work of the Holy Spirit.Away From The Brinkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01437744242086239050noreply@blogger.com