tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post114021334301201547..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Speaking of books that will mess you up—Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140455752103033812006-02-20T09:15:00.000-08:002006-02-20T09:15:00.000-08:00doxoblogist wrote: What we must remember is that R...doxoblogist wrote: <I>What we must remember is that Regeneration is completely monergistic. All calvinists will agree on that. <BR/>But then I have encountered some resistance when I have said that from that point on everything is synergistic until our final Glorification, which is again a monergistic work of God.</I><BR/><BR/>Hmmm. Nope. Not buyin'.<BR/><BR/>In the end we may be arguing semantics here, but salvation is monergistic from start to finish. It is all a work of God.<BR/><BR/>And I am an active participant in my salvation, by God's grace, until the day I stand on the other side of Jordan.<BR/><BR/>Nevertheless, it <B>is</B> all of God.Momohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04292177473341691525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140409391029633862006-02-19T20:23:00.000-08:002006-02-19T20:23:00.000-08:00Scott "Fide-O": "I have been not trying all my lif...<B>Scott "Fide-O"</B>: "I have been not trying all my life, and I still have gained victory of sin."<BR/><BR/>Huh?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140402305145976402006-02-19T18:25:00.000-08:002006-02-19T18:25:00.000-08:00Bunyan was describing himself before true regenera...<I>Bunyan was describing himself before true regeneration. </I><BR/><BR/>We could call it the standard description of an unregenerate religion. Human effort based on a set of rules.<BR/><BR/>It also describes what Paul rebuked the Galatians for - continuing on in the flesh having begun in the Spirit. That was my point.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06734845463331170748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140392407171790532006-02-19T15:40:00.000-08:002006-02-19T15:40:00.000-08:00Bunyan was describing himself before true regenera...Bunyan was describing himself before true regeneration.4givenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604421713579961024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140385045098768082006-02-19T13:37:00.000-08:002006-02-19T13:37:00.000-08:00Jabbok,If what I was suggesting was that the peopl...Jabbok,<BR/><BR/>If what I was suggesting was that the people "secret" (and therefore extra biblical) information, then I what I was teaching, while not historical gnosticism, would certainly fit the shoe.<BR/><BR/>You are correct at least in this - I -am- suggesting, in fact I am outright saying (as opposed to merely suggesting it) that some people don't understand what it means to be crucified with Christ. <BR/><BR/>Every Christian --is-- crucified with Christ, whether they reckon it or not. I am not suggesting that some are, and some are not crucified. What I saying is that until one reckons this particular truth, it is of profit to him experientially speaking.<BR/><BR/>4given rightly identifies that what I am suggesting is well described by bunyun (see her post).<BR/><BR/>I am not speaking of "special" knowledge - as though obeying the Holy Spirit was some big secret. I am saying that most people will do everything "BUT" obey the Holy Spirit, and that is why they are always learning, but never growing - their seed lacks moisture.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06734845463331170748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140382179785625392006-02-19T12:49:00.000-08:002006-02-19T12:49:00.000-08:00"The Scriptures teach nothing more clearly than th..."The Scriptures teach nothing more clearly than that God's design in showing us mercy is to make us holy people: 'For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age' (Titus 2:11-12) ....<BR/> Your flesh will whisper to you that strictness and anxious care about obedience are LEGALISM--the gospel came to deliver you from such things! And besides, if you really do commit a sin, you can be forgiven later." -Kris Lundgaard, The Enemy Within.<BR/><BR/>Some further good words for the Christian heart to ponder I would think, from a fine book on the subject of sin and holiness, which is gleaned from John Owen's teachings.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140373823730270932006-02-19T10:30:00.000-08:002006-02-19T10:30:00.000-08:00I have been not trying all my life, and I still ha...I have been not trying all my life, and I still have gained victory of sin.Scott Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11141352576274672374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140364263918240232006-02-19T07:51:00.000-08:002006-02-19T07:51:00.000-08:00Daniel, John Bunyan says it best: "I set the comma...Daniel, John Bunyan says it best: "I set the commandments before me for my way to heaven; which commandments I strove to keep, and, as I thought, did keep pretty well sometimes. I continued to live so a year, though I knew not Christ, nor grace, nor faith, nor love; and I was nothing but a poor painted hypocrite." <BR/>(We have snow and ice out here and therefore church had to be canceled for safety purposes if you are wondering why I am posting when I am supposed to be in church.)4givenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604421713579961024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140356882112786522006-02-19T05:48:00.000-08:002006-02-19T05:48:00.000-08:00One thing that modern Christianity is in danger of...One thing that modern Christianity is in danger of is in becoming a "form." That is we imagine that if a church teaches us to read our bible, to pray, and to minister to the lost (evangelize) and the saved (encouragement, etc) - we imagine that we have found a good church. Certainly we have found a <I>rare</I> church, :-), but that criteria only desribes what a good church <I>looks like</I>, and not whether or not the church is actually right with God. The believers may well be doing everything that good believers ought to do but that only describes the outside of their cup...<BR/><BR/>Jesus, we will recall, came to clean the <I>inside</I> of the cup. There are two ways, or so Jesus describes, to make the outside clean - by cleaning the outside (external religion) or cleaning the inside (genuine religion).<BR/><BR/>A man who reads the bible and tries to keep what he finds in it is not unlike a good Jew. When he does particularly well, we like to say that it isn't really his rightouesness, but "Christ is being rightoues in him" (thus avoiding stealing God's glory) - even though the man's righteousness comes entirely from his own effort to obey the outward form, or mould (scripture) that he has been pressing himself into. Yes, he is certainly taking on the form of the mould, but not because he has changed one whit - rather because he knows what clean looks like, and is behaving <I>as if he were actually clean.</I> <BR/><BR/>This charade is hotly pursued in many churches today - and is being touted in those churches as all there is to Christianity - you grit your teeth, obey as best you can - and then give God the glory for everything you have done in your own strength. They don't stop to ponder that even an unsaved person could do it in their own strength, or even if a buddhist or muslim, or wiccan could do the same in the strength of their own "faiths" - yet because a person is a "Christian" they must give the "glory" to God for all that their own hands have wrought. It is a poison, and I suspect it isn't just a local problem up here in the north.<BR/><BR/>In a word, obeying the rules, real or imagined, produces an external change, and not an internal one.<BR/><BR/>I can't tell you how many Christians I know - even seasoned, well-churched Christians from bible believing assemblies - who don't know the first thing about genuine obedience! Surely they imagine it is the Holy Spirit who is giving them the chutzpah to grit their teeth and do it. But deep down, it is not love but fear that drives them. Fear that they are not <I>genuine enough</I>. Their obedience becomes their assurance - they imagine that by gritting their teeth and affecting some change in their life that the change affected gives testimony to their salvation. They know better in their head - but they still do it.<BR/><BR/>The problem is they never come to the cross - that is, they never really understand what it means to be crucified with Christ - the words are just a limerick that they use, and not a reality that they're living. They know that they are supposed to reckon themselves dead indeed - but they don't, and frankly they think it is some mental trick you play with yourself. In fact, their whole religion is about trying to <I>be</I> a good Christian by acting like one. They are deceived, having a zeal for a form of religion - and telling themselves that they in fact have a proper and biblical Christianity.<BR/><BR/>The believer is supposed to obey the Spirit of life and not the law - having been set free from the law (as a means to righteousness.) Sanctification happens progressively as the believer submits to the Spirit. It isn't rocket science, but it also isn't well understood. <BR/><BR/>Too many Christians have a wimpy definition of sin - so that when they read "homolegeo" (confession) in 1 John 1:9 they reason that since it means "saying the same thing as" that confession means that they must agree with God that something was sinful.<BR/><BR/>That is a good start, but it falls woefully short of agreeing with God about the sin. God sent that particular sin to the cross - and failing to agree with God about it belonging there (that is, failing to reckon it there for those of you who are following) is not saying the same thing about the sin that God says. If I say with my mouth that a thing is sin, but I refuse to reckon it on the cross - I am --not-- agreeing with God about it. God says it belongs on the cross, and I say we can skip that part. It isn't "homolegeo" until I say the same thing as God says. God doesn't simply say "that is sin" God says, "the wages of sin is death" - a true confession reckons the sin on the cross, anything else is lipservice, and a lie - a walk in darkness rather than light; a walk that doesn't produce genuine righteousness in the believer, but rather produces a hardness of heart. <BR/><BR/>Unless we deal with sin the way God has provided and prescribed, and stop skipping over the cross we become religionists, and our "sanctification" is entirely outward, through our own effort.<BR/><BR/>Yet for all that many Christians will readily parrot how Christ died to save them from the penalty of sin (past), the power of sin(present) and the presence of sin (future) - but if you ask them how they are being saved from sin's power they haven't got a clue, because in reality they are -not- experiencing any salvation at all from sin's power - not because Christ doesn't offer it - but because they don't understand how to be crucified with Christ.<BR/><BR/>Sorry for the rant, if I were better able to express myself, brevity would certainly rule. ;-)Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06734845463331170748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140330567201157262006-02-18T22:29:00.000-08:002006-02-18T22:29:00.000-08:00Phil,For once I am glad to have finished a related...Phil,<BR/><BR/>For once I am glad to have finished a related post before you, so that it couldn't be said I just stole your high points here for my own fodder.<BR/><BR/>This is truly an outstanding post and a great illustration at addressing the deeper concern.<BR/><BR/>BradBrad Hustonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13034379100231079992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140314938711289032006-02-18T18:08:00.000-08:002006-02-18T18:08:00.000-08:00I say he and his fellow deeper-life aficionados ar...<I>I say he and his fellow deeper-life aficionados are the ones peddling a counterfeit.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes.<BR/><BR/>So many who think that they are going after holiness are simply going after a "holiness" that is nothing more than what they suppose holiness to be. For example, I do not think that anyone should smoke but it is <I>not</I> a <B>salvation</B> issue. And such is a counterfiet religion.<BR/><BR/>I'm not "up to speed" like so many who comment here but I am really appreciating this and wanted to say so.<BR/><BR/>AnneAnne H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00085909601196123610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140299360011891192006-02-18T13:49:00.000-08:002006-02-18T13:49:00.000-08:00"you can not try and trust at the same time."I lik..."you can not try and trust at the same time."<BR/><BR/>I like what 1 Cor. 15:10 says in regard to this false teaching.<BR/>Many other Bible passages do the same of course. <BR/>It's a difficult teaching for us to grasp, but it is without a doubt a quite clear teaching(1 Cor. 15:10), and it refutes this false doctrine without exception in my thinking.<BR/>Thanks for another post that encourages us to go to the Word.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140293082862603392006-02-18T12:04:00.000-08:002006-02-18T12:04:00.000-08:00Phil, your little description of the "'alreadies' ...Phil, your little description of the "'alreadies' and the 'not yets'" regarding the so-called 'carnal' and 'spiritual' Christians is priceless! It really gets to the heart of the error! <BR/><BR/>TerryTerryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16042532951722883487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140286974902619472006-02-18T10:22:00.000-08:002006-02-18T10:22:00.000-08:00Some time ago I read something Jerry Bridges said ...Some time ago I read something Jerry Bridges said about the different ways Christians view sanctification. I have modified what he said a little in a illustration I use to teach others. <BR/><BR/>Imagine sanctification is like moving a log up a hill. The fleshly view supposes we pick up the log and move it ourselves. The passive (Keswick) view supposes God picks up the log while we sit and watch. A synergistic view (still Arminian in my mind) suggests we get on one end, God gets on the other end and we cooperate in getting it up the hill. The proper monergistic view (Phil. 2:12-13) suggests we move the log up the hill while God moves us (via power of the Holy Spirit). Perhaps overly simplistic, but it has been helpful to me.MSChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05419145542442539462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140280317831452612006-02-18T08:31:00.000-08:002006-02-18T08:31:00.000-08:00Hello Phil. I agree with your assessment of the ke...Hello Phil. I agree with your assessment of the keswick teaching, even if at latest count one billion Chinese could care less. I'll just ignore them and ponder a moment on the thoughts. Don't you think that the the keswick movement glove fits the American cultural desire for an experience, measuring spirituality by the seismic meter instead of by clear scriptural criteria? Reinacting some version of Pentecost repeatedly as an outworking of second blessing?<BR/><BR/>This same thirst for tangible feelings fuels the contrived and choreographed worship, directly birthed out of this wrong view of sanctification and equally perverting genuine spirituality. The music perverts the doctrine of pneumatology in confusing the participants and listeners about the true nature of genuine worship. They feel something and think that it must be the Holy Spirit when it was manufactured only by the rhythm and sensuality. Classic existentialism. While teachers harangue the perversion of the mother keswick theology, they embrace her evil stepdaughter, the worship (music). Those in search for an experience can get their daily or weekly fix with either the theology or the music. How can we say the latter is not at least equally dangerous than the former?Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140277023617790802006-02-18T07:37:00.000-08:002006-02-18T07:37:00.000-08:00Mr. Whitesel, your comments, "it has been the atta...Mr. Whitesel, your comments, "it has been the attacks from those that call themselves "believers" that have been the most vicious."<BR/><BR/>So sad... so true.4givenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604421713579961024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140274989749768112006-02-18T07:03:00.000-08:002006-02-18T07:03:00.000-08:00Thanks for sharing that. You gave me a lot to thin...Thanks for sharing that. You gave me a lot to think about.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16151988844185350316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140274628561426042006-02-18T06:57:00.000-08:002006-02-18T06:57:00.000-08:00Heretical Worldly Spew comes to mind as I have per...Heretical Worldly Spew comes to mind as I have personally encountered such chunderous error... yes, CHUNDER being vomit.4givenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604421713579961024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140266965002925262006-02-18T04:49:00.000-08:002006-02-18T04:49:00.000-08:00I too look forward to other topics on the Keswick ...I too look forward to other topics on the Keswick movement. While posting on progressive sanctification on Christianthotsataglance.blogspot,com/ I mentioned the Keswik doctrinal fallacy. IF you agree I would like to link to or quote this aricle on my blog and any future discussions on this topic. Thanks for bringing this forward.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17793343069322960517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140246625454600602006-02-17T23:10:00.000-08:002006-02-17T23:10:00.000-08:00Is this Keswick teaching associated with R.A. Torr...Is this Keswick teaching associated with R.A. Torrey's teaching on the Baptism of the Spirit? It seems that his emphasis was on Christians having a great experience of the Spirit (usually) subsequent to their initial conversion, which would be the point in which the experience the filling of the Spirit. It seems that after this initial experience they become part of the 2nd tier/higher class Christians that Keswick teaching talks about.<BR/><BR/>This whole idea leads to dangerous and misleading thinking (as several commentors above mention). In an IFB college we were basically taught to seek this second experience--especially since the pastor and other "great men of God" had such an experience. This contributes blatantly to an undue "worshipping" of the clergy and other 2nd tier Christians. And it all contributes to a general fogginess concerning how to pursue sanctification in the normal Biblical way (which obviously has detrimental effects on the spiritual lives of all affected).Bob Haytonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05176224396073767674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140243281594733442006-02-17T22:14:00.000-08:002006-02-17T22:14:00.000-08:00moo zuba & rick potter: I second, third & fourth t...<STRONG>moo zuba</STRONG> & <STRONG>rick potter</STRONG>: I second, third & fourth those emotions...<BR/><BR/>Being formerly of the <EM><STRONG>Classicalist Pentacostical Percussion</EM></STRONG> I, too, eagerly await what This Esteemed Shepherd (<EM>privy pot!</EM>) has forthcoming on the topic.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for <EM>going there</EM>, <STRONG>Phil</STRONG>!<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.ibcarlos.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow">¡sbgtfa!</A>IB Dubbyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14110161040854928853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140226720149094002006-02-17T17:38:00.000-08:002006-02-17T17:38:00.000-08:00I think an error many Calvinists fall into has to ...I think an error many Calvinists fall into has to do with sanctification.<BR/>What we must remember is that Regeneration is completely monergistic. All calvinists will agree on that. <BR/>But then I have encountered some resistance when I have said that from that point on everything is synergistic until our final Glorification, which is again a monergistic work of God.Jeremy Weaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02552780649310262425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140221754855470042006-02-17T16:15:00.000-08:002006-02-17T16:15:00.000-08:00Don't forget Hanna Whittal Smith's "The Christian'...Don't forget Hanna Whittal Smith's "The Christian's Secret for a Happy Life." (And people think Joel Osteen is something new!)<BR/><BR/>At one point in the book, she answers the question, if sanctification is all God's work, why did He give us the Bible and all of its commands and exhortations? The answer: so that we can see things in the Bible which are already happening in our lives, and therefore recognize that God really is working in us.<BR/><BR/>I guess giving us the ability to recognize Himself is the one thing God left out of sanctification.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00781523237313565560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140220125471930322006-02-17T15:48:00.000-08:002006-02-17T15:48:00.000-08:00I'm looking forward to hearing more about this.I'm looking forward to hearing more about this.Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02288648996304246570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1140216465678219292006-02-17T14:47:00.000-08:002006-02-17T14:47:00.000-08:00I tried to stop trying, once.I tried to stop trying, once.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.com