tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post114745015370864459..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: On proper attire for churchPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74116335105988242042008-11-08T06:15:00.000-08:002008-11-08T06:15:00.000-08:00I believe when a person steps into the church on t...I believe when a person steps into the church on the Sabbath Day, they should be wearing clothing that is appropriate for the occasion. <BR/><BR/>What is appropriate for being in the presence of God? Of course, if a homeless tramp suddenly awakens under the highway overpass one Sabbath morning, and he feels an urgent call within himself to find a church to attend and get his life straightened out, that God would welcome him with 'open arms.' even if he were half naked. <BR/><BR/>Now, imagine that the Pope, or the President of the United states were to, out of the blue, invite you to the Vatican or White-house, for an important reason, that is not revealed.<BR/><BR/>Who, in their right mind would go half dressed, as is seen on every stree, on every day, in every city, nearly everywhere on our earth today? <BR/><BR/>Even the very poor would do their very best to find something appropiate for the Honorable occasion, something modest. <BR/><BR/>Shouldn't every church goer if at all possible, at least, dress for Church on the Sabbath Day appropriate for the 'ROYAL' occasion of being in the PRESENCE OF GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT?The Realisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00984183892626746473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-31002140724838949312008-08-06T11:36:00.000-07:002008-08-06T11:36:00.000-07:00I have read what everybody is saying, what I don't...I have read what everybody is saying, what I don't see in your debate is what God has said. The question is, What attitude should I exhibit in worship to God, in particularly in my dress. Some say that we need to wear our "Best". Is not God worthy of our best in dress, our best in singing, our best in worship, our best in examples to others. God is our Lord, our King, our Saviour. <BR/><BR/>It was stated by a young lady to a brother in Christ, who had inquired about the way she was dressed, "I can worship God in a mini dress as well as you can in long pants." Question: Is there any mutual relation between how a brother or sister dress and their attitude toward the worship of God? Does it really matter, or is it just No Big Deal.<BR/><BR/>From the beginning God has shown an interest in how we dress. In the garden of Eden Adam and Eve dressed in fig leaves. That was inappropriate in Gods eyes, and he clothed them in coats of skin. Gen. 3:21. If God did not care about how we dress, why was there a dress code under the law of Moses? Deut. 22:5, "the women whall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God."<BR/><BR/>Do you not think, that clothing reflects the mood and mental disposition of the wearer? Mourners vs. Wedding participant; You would not dress the same way? In our culture we dress for the occasion. It would be disrespectful for us to show up for a funeral or wake dressed in shorts and flip-flops. Simlarly, it would be disrespectful for us to dress the same for worship.<BR/><BR/>The Bible is staightfoward in that a garment is a mark of office. The writer of Rev. in Chapter one beginning in verse 12 says, And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle". 2Kings 2:8 speaks about Elijah and Elisha wore the mantle characteristic of a prohpet of God. Zechariah 13: 4 gives us a warning of deception. Not to dress to make one think they are a prophet of God. 1 Kings 22:10 speaks of the King in his robes, and even the virgins of teh Kings were dressed special, 2Sam 13:18.<BR/><BR/>So, if God places emphasis on those that hold office what about those leading the worship services. Those that lead in prayer, in singing, in the Lord Supper, and preaching. I Peter 2:9 the writer says, that we (Christians) are a chosen generation, a royal prieshood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into ths marvellous light." Should we not dress modestly, soberly, and proper?<BR/><BR/>The manner in which one is dressed sends signals to others. Think about the person dress in leather with silver studs or and other designs and writings. We would automatically classify him as gang related. No doubt is into drugs and drinking. A person wearing his "colors" is thought of as a gang member. Probably violent. Hair style can send different signals as well. Do we dress and make up ourselves in this way to draw attention to ourselves. If we dress casual, slobby and inappropriately in the worship service, would it draw attention to you and thus distract others tfrom worshiping God?<BR/><BR/>What are the reasons for our dress? Is it because we are lazy, self willed, want to be comfortable, or just don't care.<BR/>In 1 Sam 13:4 the writer said God seeks those after his own heart.<BR/>Are we seeking God's own heart.<BR/><BR/>And finaaly, if we are dressing for comfort, what about our Saviour. I'm sure that it was not comfortable hanging on that cruel cross of calvery. Surely, he could have told the Father, Just let me come back home in heaven and skip this hideous sacrifice.<BR/><BR/>It is not what we wear, its why are we wearing it.Sheltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17480980966007858467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89236691318272205532008-08-05T18:53:00.000-07:002008-08-05T18:53:00.000-07:00Thank you, thank you, Phil. You don't know me but...Thank you, thank you, Phil. You don't know me but I just posted on my struggle with the whole casual church attire thing this week on my blog http://sweethomeschool.blogspot.com/2008/08/church-isnt-like-church-anymore.html<BR/> I was looking for others opinons on this matter and just came across your post. Your comment about what it says about our attitude hit it on the head for me.Joannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01316187825317672781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1167770671811732722007-01-02T12:44:00.000-08:002007-01-02T12:44:00.000-08:00Father Brown, Garet,A Worship Service IS a Wedding...Father Brown, Garet,<BR/><BR/>A Worship Service IS a Wedding.<BR/>It is the marriage of Christ to his bride, the Church.<BR/><BR/>Don Sands,<BR/><BR/>I believed in the principle of headcovering for women for almost 20 years, but recently have changed my position based on this exegesis by Eric Svendsen:<BR/><BR/>http://www.patriarch.com/content/view/81/50/<BR/><BR/>It doesn't use the tired excuse of cultural relativity, as so many people use to justify all their actions.<BR/><BR/>The Bible transcends culture.Lance Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11275043953229783836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149025254228046142006-05-30T14:40:00.000-07:002006-05-30T14:40:00.000-07:00I'm not so certain the analogy of meeting a human ...I'm not so certain the analogy of meeting a human dignatary breaksdown exactly like as has been suggested.<BR/><BR/>Is it possible, even conceivable, for us to approach worship without reference to culture and being bound by those cultural meanings and significance? What language could we possibly offer praise in that is not shaped by human experience? Can we really speak the language of heaven that is not subject to human dictionaries and human meanings? <BR/><BR/>I see no reason to think words are any less an expression of culture than dress is.<BR/><BR/>If we ignore dictionaries and try to invent some "heavenly language" that only reaveals our "pure intentions and heart" are we not denying the biblical doctrine of Creation and our creatureliness? It is true we might mean well by speaking babble (culture-less words), but would this really be an expression of true and godly motives? Would not this kind of "culture-less" babble be appropriate in private worship than in an assembly with others who wouldn't know what we are talking/dressing about?Timothy G. Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08863658596736199617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1147812666852148302006-05-16T13:51:00.000-07:002006-05-16T13:51:00.000-07:00Interestingly a young lady who tends to informal w...Interestingly a young lady who tends to informal wear at church expects her father to wear a grey suit for her wedding (I think I've got away with the yellow shirt tho')MartinYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09940147665981991452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1147805617359869292006-05-16T11:53:00.000-07:002006-05-16T11:53:00.000-07:00I watched the slide show of the "clown eucharist."...I watched the slide show of the "clown eucharist." It made me curse.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05006685610827238652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1147798927274531092006-05-16T10:02:00.000-07:002006-05-16T10:02:00.000-07:00What a very well thought out post! The right thing...What a very well thought out post! The right thing for the right setting, and always with a attitude recognizing God. I appreciate the balance given to the question, because the idea of "dressing up" is very often misunderstood when considered. <BR/><BR/>When people ask me about it, I consider the widows's pennies: if all you have is 5 t-shirts and 5 pair of jeans, and only one shirt and one pair of jeans are without holes, then to wear that set when meeting with God would show an attitude of wanting to give Him your best. <BR/><BR/>People often think I mean a 3 piece suit when I say one should dress as if going to see the King, but I don't. He knows our hearts very well, and if we are casual in spirit, he knows that very well too.~Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01819856178499938127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1147708025175089622006-05-15T08:47:00.000-07:002006-05-15T08:47:00.000-07:00Caleb: What does not make sense to me is how peopl...<B>Caleb</B>: <I>What does not make sense to me is how people can view church as less important than a wedding event or even a funeral service.</I><BR/><BR/>This is an improper correlation between how one dresses and the importance one places on a given event. (The following is for illustrative purposes only, but is applicable.) I'd wear a suit to my cousin's sham wedding that is only taking place because the guy she's been living with for the last 2 years got her pregnant. And I'd wear a ratty t-shirt and shorts while working in the yard of the widow at my church. I'd consider the latter much more important.<BR/><BR/><B>Steve</B>: <I>[At church], we are presenting ourselves to Him.</I><BR/><BR/>To whom are we presenting ourselves the other 166 hours each week?<BR/><BR/><B>Sharon</B>, I think it is quite a stretch to go from flip-flops to bad theology in music. There may be some <I>commonality</I>, but there's not a <I>correlation</I>. On the other hand, statements such as yours can be (and are) taken one step further to the over-simplistic "old good, new bad" mentality. (I'm not attributing this to you, but you are dangerously close to the precipice.) Rejection of this mentaility can often result in new stuff being generated, and if the creators are not careful, it can be bad.<BR/><BR/><B>Father Brown</B>, you took the words out of my mouth on several occasions.<BR/><BR/><B>Ransom</B>, I started to ask if you were the guy from the Ray Blackston novels, but I can't see him wearing business casual anywhere. ;-)<BR/><BR/><B>Me:</B> One of the ways in which we offend someone is to distract them from God. This can be done just as easily (if not moreso, in today's culture) by dressing too formally.Brendthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10887039889675340441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1147618600797687492006-05-14T07:56:00.000-07:002006-05-14T07:56:00.000-07:00Centurion:If our purpose in coming to church is to...<B>Centurion:</B><I>If our purpose in coming to church is to glorify God, we should be dressed to glorify God -- which is neither casual or formal but purposeful.</I><BR/><BR/>I can't believe I failed to notice this on my first read of your post. I think we need a post from you explaining how the only remaining bastion of protestantism to hold out on the "purpose driven" philosophy has now gone over the edge. I do understand you as advocating a purpose driven dress code, right?Chris Freelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02959685692971056289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1147545146696100312006-05-13T11:32:00.000-07:002006-05-13T11:32:00.000-07:00Thank You Phil (and AMEN!!!)Thank You Phil (and AMEN!!!)Reneehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08098978736719699724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1147533001876514712006-05-13T08:10:00.000-07:002006-05-13T08:10:00.000-07:00Nice post and great comments to read.It seems to m...Nice post and great comments to read.<BR/>It seems to me that cultural modesty is where it's at.<BR/> What immodesty dress consists of should be taught to the church through the elders/pastors, and through one another as well, the older women helping the younger women and so on.<BR/>There's my nickle's worth.<BR/>I belong to an informal church, and we have quite an array of dress among us.<BR/><BR/>Have one Scripture question. 1 Cor. 11:4-13 Covered or uncovered, that is the question.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1147523983741696692006-05-13T05:39:00.000-07:002006-05-13T05:39:00.000-07:00Centurion:I hate it when people are able to say in...<B>Centurion:</B><BR/><BR/>I hate it when people are able to say in one post what I've attempted to say in five. Nice work.Chris Freelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02959685692971056289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1147513114156070322006-05-13T02:38:00.000-07:002006-05-13T02:38:00.000-07:00Humorous story Phil...When I went to the London Sc...Humorous story Phil...<BR/><BR/>When I went to the London School of Theology last year at the Met Tab, I went down with a friend. Imagine us both. University students in our summer holidays having great fun in our capital city in the nice weather.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, on entering the Met Tab for the first meeting, we were without doubt the worst dressed people in the building... I mean we weren't badly dressed... We just weren't wearing a suite and clutching the hugest leather bible with a cover made from a whole cow.<BR/>We tried to sneak a seat as best as you can when you're wearing shorts and t-shirts in the Met Tab. It was like a pair of Mexicans trying to get into Texas...<BR/><BR/>Well, the long and short of it, Peter Masters MCed the meeting (and I think you spoke) but when he sat down, we were directly in his line of sight... It was horrific... A whole meeting squirming. The worst thing was, we only had brought shorts and t-shirts with us so the next 3 days were spent in embarassment.<BR/><BR/>Good times!Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04051242488196178369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1147498775780949032006-05-12T22:39:00.000-07:002006-05-12T22:39:00.000-07:00From personal experience I can say I have saw a to...From personal experience I can say I have saw a total change in the church attendance/participation and dress.<BR/><BR/>I have been in a whole gamete of churches, and what I experienced is that churches that took a formal approach on dress were also had more members involved and more serious as to church and also may I dare say the holiness of God. Churches with less formal wear also showed decrease loyalty to church attendance and to service of God.DaCatsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08940576017929388330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1147496430075830962006-05-12T22:00:00.000-07:002006-05-12T22:00:00.000-07:00I wish when we discuss issues like this we could t...I wish when we discuss issues like this we could talk about it terms of wisdom and not law. It's not about abusing grace or honoring God with our attire, it's about not being a fool. The question is not: am I free to wear this? It's: am I wise enough not to?isaiah543https://www.blogger.com/profile/07677722035176971126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1147494520194112382006-05-12T21:28:00.000-07:002006-05-12T21:28:00.000-07:00A little more seriously, Doug Wilson had a thing a...A little more seriously, Doug Wilson had a thing at his blog a coupla months ago about about what to wear to church.<BR/><BR/>While paraphrasing him will butcher his eloquent prose, his thoughts when something like this: you'd look like a dork if you showed up on a farm wearing a tux to bail hay, and you'd look like a dork if you showed up at a wedding in overalls. The reason: form follows function.<BR/><BR/>If our purpose in coming to church is to glorify God, we should be dressed to glorify God -- which is neither casual or formal but <I>purposeful.</I> If you ask me, we shouldn't be wearing any of our day-to-day uniforms -- which range from teenagers who are dressed in the strict conformity of alleged non-conformity to the New Business Causal to the pomo JavaJoe look -- and put on something that is intended explicitly to detract from who we think we are in public and highlight who we are in the presence of the Lord.<BR/><BR/>"so cent," you ask wisely, "what does that leave us?"<BR/><BR/>Honestly: I have no idea, but I am sure that whatever the answer is, it doesn't look like a Catholic school uniform catalog. That is to say, the right answer for my beautiful wife is not the same answer for me. Have some liberty in grace, but don't abuse it.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1147493700356044942006-05-12T21:15:00.000-07:002006-05-12T21:15:00.000-07:00Hey: zoot suit?zoot suit.Wha'd I do to get accused...Hey: zoot suit?<BR/><BR/>zoot suit.<BR/><BR/>Wha'd I do to get accused of "zoot suit"?<BR/><BR/>Most people think I'd be more prone to wearing my underwear on the outside rather than being that flashy a dresser.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1147492350628633402006-05-12T20:52:00.000-07:002006-05-12T20:52:00.000-07:00Phil: We'll have to agree to agree then.Father Bro...<B>Phil:</B> We'll have to agree to agree then.<BR/><BR/><B>Father Brown:</B> Yes, I quoted Chesterton. I may be the only Reformed English teacher in America who teaches <I>The Man Who Was Thursday</I> to ninth graders. Oh, BTW , thanks for supplying an answer to Sharon's statement on reverence in sandals. You took the words right out of my mind. I wonder if Jesus was able to feel reverent in his sandals? <BR/><BR/><B>Chris F.:</B> Funny and true.Garet Pahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10020410796859479059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1147491915862817092006-05-12T20:45:00.000-07:002006-05-12T20:45:00.000-07:00That was two hours before my honeymoon began. I ha...That was two hours before my honeymoon began. I had other things on my mind.Chris Freelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02959685692971056289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1147490690791105242006-05-12T20:24:00.000-07:002006-05-12T20:24:00.000-07:00Chris: "And Phil ... don't many of us look at a pe...<B>Chris:</B> <I>"And Phil ... don't many of us look at a person in a nice suit and gawk about how spiritual he must be?"</I><BR/><BR/>Not me. I've seen you in a suit, and I never thought it made you look spiritual.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1147489666500139972006-05-12T20:07:00.000-07:002006-05-12T20:07:00.000-07:00While some may well have a good heart motivation i...<I>While some may well have a good heart motivation in some of these informal practices, there is a large dollop of "what makes ME comfortable" under the guise of being spiritual.</I><BR/><BR/>I guess I look at this from the other vantage point. Many people I know are so "comfortable" with the formal attire they grew up in church with that they're completely certain there's a dress code apparent in the original Greek. <BR/><BR/>I spent several years serving on a church staff at a church where I was required to wear a suit every week. When I dressed up, it wasn't to bring God glory - it was to make sure I didn't offend some of the people in my church who thought God couldn't be glorified in anything less than a suit and tie. <BR/><BR/>My biggest beef in this discussion is the people who offer a hearty "amen" to those who say God's focus is the heart rather than the outward appearance, but scoff out of the other corner of their mouth at people who would have the audacity to show up to worship in blue jeans. <BR/><BR/>My point, and maybe it's been lost in the argument, is that there is absolutely no way to gauge the authenticity or depth of one's worship by the clothes they wear to service. <BR/><BR/>And Phil, I'm glad you mentioned the partiality verse from James. Is that not what we're often guilty of doing when it comes to this very issue? We may not offer a nicely dressed man a better seat in the auditorium, but don't many of us look at a person in a nice suit and gawk about how spiritual he must be, while we assume the man in cutoffs and a t-shirt only showed up for a handout?Chris Freelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02959685692971056289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1147488757851977022006-05-12T19:52:00.000-07:002006-05-12T19:52:00.000-07:00Tom Jones sings a mean "Tennessee Waltz"Tom Jones sings a mean "Tennessee Waltz"Neilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16625691560372353977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1147488369371261742006-05-12T19:46:00.000-07:002006-05-12T19:46:00.000-07:00Egad. I can confidently say that whatever latent h...Egad. I can confidently say that whatever latent homosexual tendencies I might have had in the past have been cured forever by that picture of Tom Jones.<BR/><BR/>I recall reading a firsthand account a few years ago online, by a guy who wanted to make a point about "giving God our best," so he wore his tuxedo to church one Sunday to send a message to his fellow congregants. I'm sure he sent a message, all right: <I>This nut thinks he's at a hockey banquet.</I> (I didn't ask whether he went all out with white tie, or if he just wore the black one, the compromiser.)<BR/><BR/>One of the reasons I finally settled on adopting "business casual" for regular churchgoing was because modesty goes both ways: it's possible to be immodest not only by wearing too little, but too much. Casual or dress pants and a collared shirt cover everything that ought to be covered, on the one hand, but on the other, you don't stand out by being too ostentatious.Scott McClarehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16860823837991898060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1147486722982730702006-05-12T19:18:00.000-07:002006-05-12T19:18:00.000-07:00Phil:If "The Green, Green Grass of Home" is about ...Phil:<BR/><BR/>If "The Green, Green Grass of Home" is about home schooling, I shudder to think of what "My Delilah" was all about.Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02288648996304246570noreply@blogger.com