tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post114965643439854681..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: For those who still don't get it. . .Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1150253638742759902006-06-13T19:53:00.000-07:002006-06-13T19:53:00.000-07:00RC, do you know that they have booths at 'porn con...<I>RC, do you know that they have booths at 'porn conventions'? [...why not meet the porn people outside of the convention center?]</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, I did know that. I guess they meet people inside because that's where the people are, not outside.<BR/>It is one of the things I would probably do differently though.<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>Do you know that the 'attention getter' for their ministry is a 20 foot tall inflatable male organ? [...why not have a 20 foot tall inflatable cross?]</I><BR/>Nope, I had no idea. Just been looking over their site and can't see anything about it.<BR/><BR/><I>Are you aware that this 'church' will not allow attendants under the age of 18 into their services? [I don't ever recall this restriction being recorded in Scripture...Did Paul give the Gospel in Rated XXX terms?]</I><BR/>I imagine they keep under 18s out because they are talking about stuff that isn't appropriate for kids.<BR/><BR/><I>Just like the thousands of unknown conversions from 'successful' church marketing, I'd have to say I don't remember hearing about the hundreds of 'porn stars' being converted to salvation in Christ, after such a fantastically blessed convention. But I'll keep an ear out, brother! </I><BR/>I've heard of at least one converted porn star (directly through their ministry anyway). I think for that one lady it is worth doing what they do.<BR/><BR/><I>Peace!</I><BR/>Right back at you.<BR/><BR/>I'm not going to defend everything those guys do - I don't approve of some of it myself, BUT - I think they are telling people who would normally never hear it about Christ. And I think that is important.<BR/><BR/>It's not a ministry I would ever want to be involved in, but someone needs to do it. Have you heard of the monk Vitalis? If not, I'd suggest going an investigating him.<BR/><BR/>He has a fantastic story.<BR/><BR/>God Bless.RodeoClownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14132852669233755447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1150154203208767662006-06-12T16:16:00.000-07:002006-06-12T16:16:00.000-07:00FreedfromBondage - are you actually aware of what ...FreedfromBondage - are you actually aware of what xxxChurch is?<BR/><BR/>They are anti-porn, very much so. Providing accountability software for people who struggle with internet pornography.<BR/><BR/>They witness to workers in the porn industry, giving them bibles and the like.<BR/><BR/>While I think the way they market themselves is probably not the best, it gets people in that industry to stop and listen, and then those people may hear the gospel.<BR/><BR/>They are very much NOT the pornographers you make them out to be.RodeoClownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14132852669233755447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1150044449447817802006-06-11T09:47:00.000-07:002006-06-11T09:47:00.000-07:00Kevin,Perhaps I should apologize for the "onomato...Kevin,<BR/><BR/>Perhaps I should apologize for the "onomatopoetic" comment. (NOUN: The formation or use of words such as buzz or murmur that imitate the sounds associated with the objects or actions they refer to. onomatopoeic, onomatopoetic (-p-tk) , onomatopoeically, onomatopoetically)<BR/>I have always wanted to be a sound engineer but the Lord had different plans. It was Friday, I had a light day and I suppose I needed to echo with the rest of the comments. But I mean no personal disrespect, its just that folks around here and myself are real sensitive to the ways of the world merging with the church. There really should be a distinct demarcation between the world and church and most definitely no signs of the world in the church less one becomes guilty of spiritual adultery. Although Marshall McLuhan did say the medium is the message, someone also said that perception is everything. And just so that you will know, the word "emerging" or the likes thereof make discernment alarms go off very loudly and this blog is an excellent place to hear and troubleshoot those alarms. <BR/><BR/>Romans 10:17 Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of Godphilnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04393311811604119321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149971126434617742006-06-10T13:25:00.000-07:002006-06-10T13:25:00.000-07:00Kevin,1. I think the "Bam, Smack, Pow, and Thuds" ...Kevin,<BR/><BR/>1. I think the "Bam, Smack, Pow, and Thuds" were references to how decisively the links I posted refuted your claim that "that nothing will distract from the message."<BR/><BR/>2. For the record, I'm not usually a big fan of onomatopoetic comments, and I did nothing to encourage them here. But like you, I couldn't help noticing how many commenters in this particuar thread instinctively responded with similar detonations. That surely means <I>something.</I><BR/><BR/>3. If I'm right about the meaning of all those noises, you really ought to think again about the point I'm making.<BR/><BR/>4. If <I>you're</I> right and the walloping noises signified that the commenters who left them thought that I was merely "insulting" you, <I>let them say so,</I> and I will apologize. I promise.<BR/><BR/>5. This statement from you: <I>"Most churches know what their message is. That's not the problem"</I> epitomizes why I think your whole approach is 180 degrees wrong. I could hardly disagree with you more strongly.<BR/><BR/>6. Though I might also disagree with a lot of <A HREF="http://www.marshallmcluhan.com/poster.html" REL="nofollow">what Marshall McLuhan said,</A> he made several good points, and <A HREF="http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/mcluhan.html" REL="nofollow">his most famous aphorism</A> distilled an important idea I think you would do well to consider very seriously.<BR/><BR/>7. People aren't likely to be condemned at the judgment seat for "typos" or for ham-handed artwork on their church bulletins. Selah.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149969820371566272006-06-10T13:03:00.000-07:002006-06-10T13:03:00.000-07:00The best way to communicate the gospel during an a...The best way to communicate the gospel during an assembly of believers is Acts 2:42. And then the Lord will add to the church daily, those who are being saved.<BR/><BR/>Coming together on Sunday is a time of worship, not evangelism. If the Lord happens to save some during the service, that is wonderful. <BR/>I see the prupose of Sunday church services as worshipping the Lord Jesus Christ, and His Father, in Spirit and truth.<BR/>Evangelism takes place through that same body of believers in many, many ways, but always the gospel of grace.<BR/>I hope you don't mind my two cents worth. And I hope this fits.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149968297864023102006-06-10T12:38:00.000-07:002006-06-10T12:38:00.000-07:00It's so funny that you can write the way you do an...It's so funny that you can write the way you do and not see how insulting you're being. All the comments of "Bam" and "Smack, Pow, Thud" seem to notice the same thing I do. <BR/><BR/>Why is there not a single article talking about the content of the Gospel on Church Marketing Sucks? We've never thought it necessary. Most churches know what their message is. That's not the problem (and if it is a problem, there are loads of better organizations to help with that problem). The problem is that churches aren't very good at communicating that message. That's our purpose. Try to figure out how to communicate it better. Try to figure out how to connect with people better.<BR/><BR/>If that means having small group that meets in a bar and talks about the Bible over a pint, great. If it means doing a series that honestly explores what the Bible says about sex, great. If it means having a porn weekend to draw attention to the problem of pornography, let's do it.<BR/><BR/>Obviously all of these ideas have to fit with the message, or it's a waste. But that's what we're about.<BR/><BR/>Maybe we should talk more about ways to clearly explain the details of the Gospel, and that's a good idea. But we look around and see churches full of typos or churches full of shiny marketing that misses out on the truth and we groan. That's what we've been trying to address.Kevin D. Hendrickshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07661111858493075729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149966312625742672006-06-10T12:05:00.000-07:002006-06-10T12:05:00.000-07:00Kevin,I'm not sure what you took as merely "insult...Kevin,<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure what you took as merely "insulting." I showed you concrete examples of marketing gimmicks you promote that belie your original claim that all you're doing is <I>"learning good . . . skills and putting them to work in order that nothing will distract from the message"</I> On the contrary, your gimmicks <B>do</B> distract from the message. Seriously.<BR/><BR/>Moreover, I never said I had a problem "with someone having a beer" or with bare feet. (See how you consistently evade the real point?) What I have a problem with is "church marketing" that replaces the church's only legitimate message with such vanity and worldliness.<BR/><BR/><B>Again: where is the gospel in <I>any</I> of the gimmicks you promote?</B><BR/><BR/>If <A HREF="http://phillipjohnson.blogspot.com/2005/11/cant-we-all-just-get-along.html" REL="nofollow">your notion of "dialoguing"</A> requires me to be less than honest about my assessment of how seriously wrong your approach to marketing is, then it's not really "dialogue" you're looking for anyway, is it?<BR/><BR/>But there really is a serious point to my criticism, and you didn't answer it. Once more: If you are truly trying to do what you claimed you are doing in your first comment here, <B>why is there not a single article on your blog dealing with the actual <I>content</I> of the gospel message and how to make it clearer?</B><BR/><BR/>Before you get mad and run off, I hope that point sinks in a little bit. Good writing, slick design, and "cutting-edge" innovation doesn't make your stuff good <I>or</I> valid. That's the false promise of so much stress on "marketing."<BR/><BR/>And since your current series of posts seems to suggest this criticism has somehow escaped you, I think it's time someone got really blunt about it.<BR/><BR/>But I assure you, it's not meant to stifle real, honest dialogue—or merely to insult.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149964736787483342006-06-10T11:38:00.000-07:002006-06-10T11:38:00.000-07:00From the links you pointed to it's pretty obvious ...From the links you pointed to it's pretty obvious our disagreements go far and deep. If you've got a problem with someone having a beer or think bare feet and the mention of sex constitute a titilating ad, well we're not exactly going to see eye to eye.<BR/><BR/>And you know, I have to wonder what's the point in even trying when it's pretty clear you're not interested in dialoging. You're not interested in helping someone understand what you think, you'd rather just insult them. As long as you're right, I guess how you do it doesn't really matter.<BR/><BR/>Thanks, but I've got better things to do.Kevin D. Hendrickshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07661111858493075729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149943937634422562006-06-10T05:52:00.000-07:002006-06-10T05:52:00.000-07:00I am so slow... but I just noticed that everytime ...I am so slow... but I just noticed that everytime I click onto the Pyro site there is a new Pyro heading. Clever.<BR/><BR/>(It must be the blonde hair... or could it be that I homeschool six kids, and like to go barefoot, living in Arkansas)4givenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604421713579961024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149890490096304032006-06-09T15:01:00.000-07:002006-06-09T15:01:00.000-07:00Rob, I have said I don't get it. The market-driven...Rob, <I><B>I</B></I> have said I don't get it. The market-driven mentality makes no sense biblically, logically, or even (in the long run) pragmatically.<BR/><BR/>I've pointed out why it violates every principle of Scripture, every lesson from church history, and every canon of common sense. That's been one of the central themes of my blog for the past year.<BR/><BR/>If your best answer is, "Well, that's <I><B>your</B></I> perspective. We just see things differently,"—with no actual argument from Scripture and no coherent rationale other than your postmodern perspective that everyone is entitled to invent his own reality—then you're perfectly welcome to jump off that cliff.<BR/><BR/>I'm not going to follow you into the abyss.<BR/><BR/>Incidentally, if you or Kevin really want "dialogue" about this, you're eventually going to have to make a coherent argument somewhere. The "Sez you!" response doesn't really qualify as an answer on this blog.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149865915574870412006-06-09T08:11:00.000-07:002006-06-09T08:11:00.000-07:00BAM!!!... SMACK!!!... POW!!!... BOOM!!!..THUD!!!!M...BAM!!!... SMACK!!!... POW!!!... BOOM!!!..THUD!!!!<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, back at Gotham, I mean Pyro, after Kevin got told....lol<BR/> <BR/>Oh, I slay myself....<BR/>Thud...LOL...LOL..<BR/><BR/>Great work Phil! You are my hero.philnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04393311811604119321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149857675504688992006-06-09T05:54:00.000-07:002006-06-09T05:54:00.000-07:00Those links are disgusting. Good detective work P...Those links are disgusting. <BR/><BR/>Good detective work Phil.Jim Bublitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16888150295999667219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149831538422622572006-06-08T22:38:00.000-07:002006-06-08T22:38:00.000-07:00Kevin: "what's wrong with a preacher learning good...<B>Kevin:</B> <I>"what's wrong with a preacher learning good public speaking skills and putting them to work in order that nothing will distract from the message? In my humble opinion, that's the point of marketing."</I><BR/><BR/>See, Kevin, the problem is that I read your website, and we both know very well that a whole lot of the stuff you are promoting is nothing whatsoever like "a preacher learning good public speaking skills and putting them to work in order that nothing will distract from the message."<BR/><BR/>On the contrary, the varieties of "marketing" you have promoted include everything from <A HREF="http://www.churchmarketingsucks.com/archives/2006/04/ditching_sermon.html" REL="nofollow">"Ditching Sermons for Drama"</A> to <A HREF="http://www.churchmarketingsucks.com/archives/2005/10/theology_on_tap.html" REL="nofollow">"outreach efforts involving strong drink</A>—not to mention <A HREF="http://www.churchmarketingsucks.com/archives/2006/02/my_lame_sex_lif.html" REL="nofollow">deliberately tittilating ad campaigns,</A> <A HREF="http://www.churchmarketingsucks.com/archives/2005/10/lingerie_dodgeb.html" REL="nofollow">lingerie parties,</A> and <A HREF="http://www.churchmarketingsucks.com/archives/2005/04/porn_weekend_we.html" REL="nofollow">porn weekends.</A><BR/><BR/>Furthermore, in your view, <A HREF="http://www.churchmarketingsucks.com/archives/2005/02/missionsmarketi.html" REL="nofollow">marketing <I>is</I> the church's mission.</A> I have yet to see a single article on your site dealing with the actual <I><B>content</B></I> of the gospel message or how to make it clearer. So don't kid yourself with the argument that all you're really doing is just like someone learning how to preach better.<BR/><BR/>Like I said, you're not really talking about <B><I>preaching the gospel</I></B> at all; you're exploring methods for <B><I>pimping religion.</I></B>Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149821134948576392006-06-08T19:45:00.000-07:002006-06-08T19:45:00.000-07:00Phil Johnson said: "Are you being serious? Or was ...<B>Phil Johnson</B> said: <I>"Are you being serious? Or was that a deliberate set-up line?"</I><BR/><BR/>Set-up line? I'm trying to dialogue with you, not set you up. <BR/><BR/>The passage you point to (1 Cor. 3:6-7) is great. Paul did some work (planting). Apolos did some work (watering). God made it happen (increase). So what are you getting at (maybe it's getting late for me)? Paul may not have seen direct results for his work, but the fruit was still there. Growth still happened. That's the kind of fruit Jesus was talking about. <BR/><BR/>And of course real fruit can't be manufactured. Who said that it was? The greatest preacher in the world can't manufacture conversions--only God is going to do that. But the preacher still had to preach. Paul still had to do the watering. <BR/><BR/>That's how I see marketing--it's just thinking about how we communicate. It's something that happens no matter what, it's just a matter of it being good communication or bad communication, good marketing or bad marketing. <BR/><BR/>It's just like speaking skills. A preacher can say they don't matter and that God will speak through him no matter what, and though God may still speak through him, it can still be bad public speaking. But what's wrong with a preacher learning good public speaking skills and putting them to work in order that nothing will distract from the message? In my humble opinion, that's the point of marketing.Kevin D. Hendrickshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07661111858493075729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149781060841189472006-06-08T08:37:00.000-07:002006-06-08T08:37:00.000-07:00The way I see it the mega-churches are like daycar...The way I see it the mega-churches are like daycare facilities spiritually speaking. They are merely stepping stones leading (for most) back into the world or for others, on to elementary school for Arminian processing.philnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04393311811604119321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149780973202162022006-06-08T08:36:00.000-07:002006-06-08T08:36:00.000-07:00Kevin D. Hendricks: "Jesus talked a lot about bear...<B>Kevin D. Hendricks:</B> <I>"Jesus talked a lot about bearing fruit. Isn't that looking just at results? "</I><BR/><BR/>Are you being serious? Or was that a deliberate set-up line?<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor.%203:6-7&version=9" REL="nofollow"><B>See 1 Cor. 3:6-7.</B></A><BR/><BR/>...and once you see the main point Paul was making there, ask yourself what he was using the imagery of <I>planting</I> and <I>watering</I> to signify.<BR/><BR/><B>Hint:</B> <I>marketing strategy</I> (regardless of how "authentic") was the furthest thing from his mind.<BR/><BR/>BTW, real "fruit" isn't manufactured. Except for the wax kind, which, you know, doesn't produce real living organisms.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149778969302191112006-06-08T08:02:00.000-07:002006-06-08T08:02:00.000-07:00As my pastor so succinctly put it . . . "Christ sa...As my pastor so succinctly put it . . . "Christ said HE would build His church, and I don't want to compete with Him!"Sharonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14534421623031122881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149777730578932302006-06-08T07:42:00.000-07:002006-06-08T07:42:00.000-07:00I think what I find the most bothersome is that so...I think what I find the most bothersome is that so many churches pushing the "church growth" ideas seem to forget Who it is who adds to the church. Yes, we are to be faithful in evangelizing, but it is the Holy Spirit who draws people to Himself. Our clever little marketing techniques might well succeed in drawing people for a while, especially if the church has a hot band and light show (it also helps if the preacher can twirl his mike like Roger Daltrey), but these things won't save anyone. If the Spirit isn't drawing, they're not coming. <BR/><BR/>While I am at it, the way we have "professionalized" church ministry hasn't helped. The way I read Scripture, the assembly is for believers to be grounded in the Word and equipped for ministry, in addition to worship. It is NOT primarily for reaching unbelievers. The reaching of unbelievers is to be done by all of us in our everyday lives. Instead, we have the mindset that we pay the church staff and pastors' salaries so THEY can do the work of the ministry. It isn't supposed to be this way. <BR/><BR/>I am slowly beginning to think we'd all be better off if some of these massive Taj Mahals we've built would go belly up. The millions of dollars that go into maintaining them could be better spent, and who knows...people just might be more motivated to talk to their neighbors about Christ.<BR/><BR/> I don't intend to imply that no valid ministry can happen in a huge church. It can and does. However, they are easily drawn into the "numbers means we're valid" game. I'd rather worship in a small group with 10 people who are devoted to the Word of God rather than a megachurch of 10,000 where one hears more about self-help than they do holy living.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149776156768636682006-06-08T07:15:00.000-07:002006-06-08T07:15:00.000-07:00Sendthefire: That has actually happened before. In...Sendthefire: <BR/><BR/>That has actually happened before. In the 1990's, a pastor in Muscle Shoals, AL came to believe in the Doctrines of Grace. He was a successful marketer with a large and growing church. People expected him to be the next big thing. <BR/>Instead, he called all the SBC pastors in the area to a meeting at his church, publicly repented, and called everyone there to do the same. He lost half his church and is now considered fringe. <BR/>Of course, since then the church has grown Biblically and is now a vibrant, healthy proof both that marketing is not necessary and that Calvinism doesn't kill evangelism.<BR/>Oh yeah- Voddie Baucham is an elder at that church too.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00778739900054130935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149774389069053322006-06-08T06:46:00.000-07:002006-06-08T06:46:00.000-07:00Zing! Wow.Well, thanks for checking out what we ha...Zing! Wow.<BR/><BR/>Well, thanks for checking out what we had to say and offering your perspective.<BR/><BR/>We've certainly said that we don't know everything on the subject and have invited people to comment or submit guest entries. So talk to us. What's your take on pragmatism? I'd agree with you that a church shouldn't do anything under the sun, no matter the cost, to increase numbers or grow.<BR/><BR/>But doesn't some pragmatism, provided it's biblical, make sense? Certainly let's not look only at the results--but don't they matter? Jesus talked a lot about bearing fruit. Isn't that looking just at results? <BR/><BR/>Just my two cents on one small aspect of everything you said. Thanks.Kevin D. Hendrickshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07661111858493075729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149772866304028032006-06-08T06:21:00.000-07:002006-06-08T06:21:00.000-07:00Ahh, I'm with you all the way on that.Ahh, I'm with you all the way on that.Mike Yhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14897602903962464086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149732753303648512006-06-07T19:12:00.000-07:002006-06-07T19:12:00.000-07:00Soccerreformer,No problem taking an issue with it....Soccerreformer,<BR/><BR/>No problem taking an issue with it. I still stand by it. And I believe you're right that these folks know what they're doing and why. But I don't believe they understand spiritual truth to distinguish between the scriptural church and the pragmatic church. And at the end of the day, a worldly church really isn't very pragmatic.<BR/><BR/>-MikeMike Yhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14897602903962464086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149699675020684182006-06-07T10:01:00.001-07:002006-06-07T10:01:00.001-07:00Seems to me that a belief that the gospel is a com...Seems to me that a belief that the gospel is a commodity devalues the real meaning of the gospel.<BR/><BR/>Using the concept of the corporation as an analogy to the church is risky, I think.<BR/><BR/>The whole thing about marketing anything is that marketers all know that eventually their product will be usurped by another. That's not the assumption we should make with the gospel.Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02288648996304246570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149699660867713632006-06-07T10:01:00.000-07:002006-06-07T10:01:00.000-07:00Phil, Good article. I agree that pragmatism is a ...Phil, <BR/>Good article. I agree that pragmatism is a serious theological problem. I wonder however, if some apparent pragmatism may not be such. It's easy to look at this site and see pragmatic motivation. Yet, someone might initiate similar methodology not for pragmatic reasons but rather for theological ones. Why do mega-churches attract? They give a sense of community. Why do emerging churches attract? They give a deeper level of connection and intimacy than a regular church. I see a strong theological imperative for the church being a connected body that helps each other to grow (Eph 4). So I might initiate some of the same practices of say either the local mega-church or the local “emerging” church, but for different reasons. They do it, because it works; I might because it builds the church in a Biblical way. Thanks for the article. <BR/>MattMatthew LaPinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06443707548111194774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149699108647213462006-06-07T09:51:00.000-07:002006-06-07T09:51:00.000-07:00By the way I want to be clear that I am in no way ...By the way I want to be clear that I am in no way disparaging evangelization. But doing so to put a notch on your belt or get attendance up is NOT fullfilling the commision.<BR/><BR/>Don't just get more sheep, feed the sheep.LeeChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05540608568274871363noreply@blogger.com