tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post114983844171976156..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: a cup of waterPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1150309974110446282006-06-14T11:32:00.000-07:002006-06-14T11:32:00.000-07:00Scott...Save those who are non-believers. But does...Scott...<BR/><BR/>Save those who are non-believers. But doesn't the church in acts show them taking care of those who are a part of the church? I.e. the poor who are now believers?<BR/><BR/>I'm not advocating for anyone in the threads here... It's an honest question.Frank Martenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13962831912421867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1150138494292640262006-06-12T11:54:00.000-07:002006-06-12T11:54:00.000-07:00David Cho, that's a mighty nice digital camera in ...David Cho, that's a mighty nice digital camera in your hand on that profile pic. I bet that would have fed a lot of hungry people.<BR/><BR/>I know this is probably side tracked from Franks original intention (or maybe not) but David this is a never ending argument. You could have bought a cheaper shirt or less trendy glasses or left the white paint instead of wall paper. <BR/><BR/>It has not been the churches main priority in scripture to feed the poor. It has been their responsiblity to reconcile lost sinners to Christ.Scott Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11141352576274672374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1150138121900313742006-06-12T11:48:00.000-07:002006-06-12T11:48:00.000-07:00James, From the link that Phil gave me, I couldn't...James, <BR/><BR/>From the link that Phil gave me, I couldn't find much to indicate that evangelicals give more to the poor.<BR/><BR/>Sure that they give more to churches as Phil points out, but that does not automatically translate into giving to the poor. What the study has to say about the "the church's squandering of resources" is truly disturbing. <BR/><BR/>If you see something from the website that Phil provided that I don't, let me know.David Chohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10635380194329897550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1150134723744486692006-06-12T10:52:00.000-07:002006-06-12T10:52:00.000-07:00david cho and Phil, this is wholly anecdotal, but ...<B>david cho</B> and <B>Phil</B>, this is wholly anecdotal, but I couldn't help but think of it as I was reading the comments and noting the convenient and inaccurate portrayal of conservative evangelicals as unwilling to help the poor. Here's what I thought of. I have relatives who are members of a Lutheran church that is a part of the ELCA. Of the three Lutheran synods in the US, they are the largest and they are the liberals. My uncle is fully liberal in his theology and radically leftist in his politics. At the last family reunion he freely joked about how <I>his</I> branch of the Lutherans was considered the <B>stingy</B> branch. What I assumed he meant by that was that they have less giving on a per capita basis than the other two synods. I would be surprised if the statistics did <B><I>not</B></I> bear that out.Momohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04292177473341691525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1150067944665597032006-06-11T16:19:00.000-07:002006-06-11T16:19:00.000-07:00Frank, I must admit that sometimes when you do the...Frank, I must admit that sometimes when you do these little parables type post I have no idea what you are talking about i.e. the one about the monkey. But on this one I am right there with you. uqhmzScott Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11141352576274672374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1150024067262919702006-06-11T04:07:00.000-07:002006-06-11T04:07:00.000-07:00Dan,I know you're not alone in that. Boasting abo...Dan,<BR/><BR/>I know you're not alone in that. Boasting about what we <B>do</B>, while coming down on others with the assumption that they do <B>less</B> (without any idea what we're talking about) is nothing more than vanity and a means to puff up self. <BR/><BR/>This is not to say I think it wrong for example, for a church website to list different ministries they have for sharing the gospel, or for someone when asked, to explain the work they're involved in.<BR/><BR/>Just wanted to clarify that.Carla Rolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09395062089776262435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149989399061771592006-06-10T18:29:00.000-07:002006-06-10T18:29:00.000-07:00Phil,Thank you so much for the link. No amount of...Phil,<BR/><BR/>Thank you so much for the link. No amount of googling could land me a site as such, but this is exactly what I have been looking for. That website is a goldmine.David Chohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10635380194329897550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149987270293630142006-06-10T17:54:00.000-07:002006-06-10T17:54:00.000-07:00...what the ECM is all about - because you cannot ...<I>...what the ECM is all about - because you cannot make a blanket statement to define the movement. It would be unfair.</I><BR/><BR/>On the other hand, it is certainly possible to make accurate <I>general</I> statements about the Emergent Conversation/Church/Movement/Thingie.Savage Baptisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14366893048089380061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149986801460902052006-06-10T17:46:00.000-07:002006-06-10T17:46:00.000-07:00Miss Carla, this We don't know what a lot of folks...Miss Carla, this <I>We don't know what a lot of folks are doing toward that end because to boast about it would be sinful and arrogant, as to say "look at me, look at what I'm doing for the Lord!".</I> was truly <I>le mot juste.</I> Personally speaking, I made up my mind a long time ago that as much of my giving and my do-gooding would be anonymous as possible. I seriously doubt that I am alone in that.Savage Baptisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14366893048089380061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149979291036153842006-06-10T15:41:00.000-07:002006-06-10T15:41:00.000-07:00David Cho: "I am very much interested in seeing st...<B>David Cho:</B> <I>"I am very much interested in seeing stats."</I><BR/><BR/>Gladly. <A HREF="http://www.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=4&page=311" REL="nofollow">Statistics posted at "Generous Giving"</A> seem to call your claim into question and demonstrate evidence for mine. Conservative evangelicals are actually more generous in their charitable giving when compared to other demographic groups. Yet they clearly aren't doing all they should.<BR/><BR/>On the one hand, "American evangelicals gave four times as much, per person, to churches as did all other church donors in 2001."<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, "Thirty-three percent of U.S. born-again Christians say it is impossible for them to get ahead in life because of the financial debt they have incurred." They aren't getting into debt because of their charitable giving, however, because "The average donation by adults who attend U.S. Protestant churches is about $17 a week."<BR/><BR/>There are many other stats at that site—some encouraging, and some disturbing.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149977723831390072006-06-10T15:15:00.000-07:002006-06-10T15:15:00.000-07:00Phil,I'd be happy to dredge up some actual statist...Phil,<BR/><BR/><I>I'd be happy to dredge up some actual statistics for the claim I made, if you like. Such statistics do exist</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, I am very much interested in seeing stats. Been doing some research on that topic and have not been able to find much. Many thanks in advance.<BR/><BR/><I>I'm also pointing out that disparaging throw-away lines about Grace Church have figured in too many of your comments</I><BR/><BR/>I have commented in <A HREF="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22david+cho%22+site%3Ateampyro.blogspot.com&btnG=Google+Search" REL="nofollow">six threads</A> on this blog including this, and I am not sure how you have come up with that assessment. Are you refering to other blogs? I might have mentioned GCC once on ENo.<BR/><BR/>But this is your blog and I am here as a guest, so further comments regarding GCC will be carefully vetted.David Chohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10635380194329897550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149976125776604092006-06-10T14:48:00.000-07:002006-06-10T14:48:00.000-07:00donsands, Savage is a conservative talk radio host...donsands, Savage is a conservative talk radio host. He's more "harsh" than Limbaugh (I won't link to his web site, as there's some objectionable stuff there), but he's less of a Bush administration lapdog than a lot of the conservative voices out there. The book I linked to (I used the link because I like the title, and I *did* read it) beats almost as hard on President Bush as it does on Liberals. Savage is a staunch conservative, as opposed to being a staunch Republican. This is analagous to being a staunch Christian as opposed to being a staunch Presbyterian, Baptist, etc.... I'm more interested in the belief system than the "affiliation," although one is often indicative of the other.<BR/><BR/>The politics discussion (outside the context of the Emerging Church) is indeed one for another day/blog. I'd rather not go into it here. I read both conservative and Christian books. On my in-process reading table right now is a Sunday School text on the Westminister Confession, Calvin's "Institutes", Michael Smerconish's "Muzzled", John Stossel's "Myths, Lies and Downright Stupidity", and "The Tipping Point" by Malcolm Gladwell. I think all of these have bearing on the life of a Christian in today's society.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149968731394282932006-06-10T12:45:00.000-07:002006-06-10T12:45:00.000-07:00David Cho: "we seem to be somewhat in agreement."I...<B>David Cho:</B> <I>"we seem to be somewhat in agreement."</I><BR/><BR/>I don't think so. What I said was that "millions of evangelicals sin by indulging themselves while neglecting the needs of the poor."<BR/><BR/>I'd be happy to dredge up some actual statistics for the claim I made, if you like. Such statistics do exist.<BR/><BR/>What <I>you</I> said was that <I>"conservative Evangelicals"</I> are particularly guilty of this, and that all they ever do is "hammer [needy people] with lectures."<BR/><BR/>When you were asked for the evidence of that, you cited anecdotal evidence based on your "8-year" experience at my church. I'm suggesting that you were actually bearing false witness.<BR/><BR/>I'm also pointing out that disparaging throw-away lines about Grace Church have figured in too many of your comments, so I don't think this remark was as innocent as you now suggest.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149961394371045442006-06-10T10:43:00.000-07:002006-06-10T10:43:00.000-07:00Phil, I was just answering people's questions sinc...Phil, I was just answering people's questions since they were curious about my personal dealings with conservative Evangelical churches, and I had no intention of singling out GCC in that regard, and please accept my apologies for coming across that way.<BR/><BR/>But in your critque of the ECM, we seem to be somewhat in agreement.<BR/><BR/><I>They are right to point out that millions of American evangelicals live lives of gross hypocrisy and narcissism, <B>ignoring the needs of the poor</B> while indulging themselves with entertainments and luxuries</I><BR/><BR/>That is, unless you were refering to <I>liberal</I> evangelicals of whom I've met only 2.<BR/><BR/>As to my affiliation with Grace, as I said, I was <I>in and around</I> for 8 years, but attended consistently for 3, not 8. Attended a different church for 5, but almost all of my college friends had very close ties to the church. Because of that, I heard about JMac all the time while in college, and after graduation, GCC was my natural choice.<BR/><BR/>Yes, I do remember the deacon fund. It was collected as a seperate offering typically after the first (usually during evening service, if my memory serves me right) for the specific purpose of helping people in the community.David Chohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10635380194329897550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149961010093090802006-06-10T10:36:00.000-07:002006-06-10T10:36:00.000-07:00Centurion, thank you very much for the thoughtful ...Centurion, thank you very much for the thoughtful email. It will take me a bit of time to digest it and get back to you.David Chohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10635380194329897550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149960052594465572006-06-10T10:20:00.000-07:002006-06-10T10:20:00.000-07:00bill,Who is this Michael Savage/ I read where "he ...bill,<BR/><BR/>Who is this Michael Savage/ I read where "he makes Rush Limbaugh seem tame".<BR/><BR/>Is he a Christian? I have never heard of him.<BR/><BR/>Personally I do listen to conservative non-Christians, but I sometimes feel they may do more harm than good, or at least the same amount of harm to the gospel as liberals. I suppose this would be a another subject for another time.<BR/>Francis Schaeffer said, "Conservative humanism is just as wrong as liberal humanism."<BR/>Have a blessed day in the Lord's grace and love.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149953881318630132006-06-10T08:38:00.000-07:002006-06-10T08:38:00.000-07:00Hey, rubbing alcohol is cool and soothing and is a...Hey, rubbing alcohol is cool and soothing and is an antiseptic. Anyone....want some about now? :)candyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088593538648596769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149952477309548822006-06-10T08:14:00.000-07:002006-06-10T08:14:00.000-07:00I suspect that many of the disgruntled ECM adheren...I suspect that many of the disgruntled ECM adherents are actually disgruntled about how the Conservative Evangelical churches don't cater to their personal political ideologies. Many (most?) suffer from the <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1595550062/sr=8-2/qid=1149952222/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-8122303-4312160?%5Fencoding=UTF8" REL="nofollow">mental disorder of liberalism</A> and they are drawn to churches that lean that direction. Since their ideologies rotate around things like governmental social programs, egalitarianism (societal and religious), anti-war and anti-Bush leanings, pacifism, "freedom of choice," "gay rights," and other leftist causes, they feel out of place in these Conservative churches. So excuses like "these churches don't serve the poor" give them an out to flee to friendlier pastures.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149951061492727952006-06-10T07:51:00.000-07:002006-06-10T07:51:00.000-07:00Cho: If you're claiming you were "8 years in and a...<B>Cho:</B> If you're claiming you were <I>"8 years in and around John MacArthur's Grace Community Church"</I> and you still insist that <I>"instead of living out the power of the gospel, we just hammer them with lectures about it,</I> I say you are lying.<BR/><BR/>To cite just one example: if you attended the church for that long, you certainly know what the deacons' fund is—since a special offering for that fund is taken every time we observe the Lord's table. (That's been the routine for all 25 years that I have been here). Did you ever contribute to the deacons' fund? Do you have any idea how much money goes through that fund each month specifically to meet the needs of the poor?<BR/><BR/>I'm frankly beginning to wonder whether any of your incessant criticisms are sincere. You seem to be a disgruntled man with a sinister agenda, looking for a public venue to air out some bitterness you have nurtured for years. It's become very tiresome, and this is not the venue for that.<BR/><BR/>So that's your last disparaging remark about Grace Church on <I>this</I> blog. Any more of these trumped-up grievances from you against my church will be automatically deleted. If you want to continue gossip-mongering, you'll have to do it on your own blog.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149947285489403802006-06-10T06:48:00.000-07:002006-06-10T06:48:00.000-07:00Good for you, David, you've attended four churches...Good for you, David, you've attended four churches. So have I. Two E-Free, one SBC, one PCA since 1984. All four have had numerous ministries for reaching out to single moms, foster parents, homeless, overseas missions, etc. All four had significant congregational participation in these missions and ministries. So, I guess my four Conservative Evangelical churches trump yours. Next question...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149946307599013582006-06-10T06:31:00.000-07:002006-06-10T06:31:00.000-07:00Steve S.,the ECM folks use the same defense (and u...Steve S.,<BR/><BR/>the ECM folks use the same defense (and understandably so) when they are also unfairly and inaccurately painted with the same broad brush. I'm well aware of it, and have (in my critique) tried very hard not to do that. In fact, I've made a concerted effort to put disclaimers in any critique I offer by saying such things as <I>"this is what is being put forth, but at the same time, not <B>all</B> who consider themselves emerging would agree with this".</I><BR/><BR/>It's actually one of the reasons so many people have a hard time understanding what the ECM is all about - <B>because</B> you cannot make a blanket statement to define the movement. It would be unfair.<BR/><BR/>Phil, on the other hand, has done a great job and you can read what he had to say at the Shepherd's Conference in the series he's posting at <A HREF="http://www.gracechurch.org/sfellowship/pulpitcm/front.asp?id=21" REL="nofollow">Pulpit Live</A>, from the transcript of that message.<BR/><BR/>I would encourage you to begin with part 1, as well as download the audio of this message.Carla Rolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09395062089776262435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149943663786844532006-06-10T05:47:00.000-07:002006-06-10T05:47:00.000-07:00By the way, I owe David Cho an e-mail, so rather t...By the way, I owe David Cho an e-mail, so rather than start a new kerfluffle with him here, I'll reply to that e-mail and see where it goes.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149943561419701442006-06-10T05:46:00.000-07:002006-06-10T05:46:00.000-07:00Sensenig:One of the significant differences betwee...Sensenig:<BR/><BR/>One of the significant differences between what Carla said here and what EC'ers do is that <I>this is the EC primary defense</I> while Carla uses the statement as a supplemental argument.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149942648376036112006-06-10T05:30:00.000-07:002006-06-10T05:30:00.000-07:00david,John MacArthur's church doesn't live out the...david,<BR/><BR/>John MacArthur's church doesn't live out the power of the gospel? They just hammer people with lectures?<BR/><BR/>I have never been there, but I thought the Lord had has hand on the people of this community church.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1149920202962118552006-06-09T23:16:00.000-07:002006-06-09T23:16:00.000-07:00bill and donsands,- 8 years in and around John Mac...bill and donsands,<BR/>- 8 years in and around John MacArthur's Grace Community Church. <BR/>- 3 years at David Hocking's Calvary Church in Santa Ana.<BR/>- 10 years in two Calvary Chapels<BR/><BR/>That is just the surface of my resume. Calvary Chapels are somewhat better in reaching out to the poor, but they are often looked down upon by my conservative friends for what they perceive as doctrinal sloppiness. Was heavily warned against attending CC by a friend who is now a TMS grad.<BR/><BR/>As to elaborating on what I am saying, I have a couple of entries on my blog under a series called "Coming to terms with fundamentalism." There will be about seven more. I am afraid that anything beyond what I have to say here will be deemed either off topic or too long in violation of the rules.David Chohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10635380194329897550noreply@blogger.com