tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post115108424255116799..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: You filthy sheep-herdPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151186010420326552006-06-24T14:53:00.000-07:002006-06-24T14:53:00.000-07:00But don't cut Andy Stanley too much slack. He's a...But don't cut Andy Stanley too much slack. He's a big part of the problem today, and not a part of the answer. I realize our favorite eyebrow twitching blogger was talking about the one isolated leadership conversation. But there is so much more that we can't forget about. Things that come to mind include "<A HREF="http://common.northpoint.org/sacredpathway.html" REL="nofollow">discover your worship style</A>", Pimp My Church Van, "is he live or is he memorex", Andy and Bono together, and our garden variety pragmatism. Young CGM pastors seem to hang on his every word, and blog about wanting to grow up to be a 'CEO' just like Andy.<BR/><BR/>Sorry for pirating the thread with this rant. I now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.Jim Bublitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16888150295999667219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151181065576037542006-06-24T13:31:00.000-07:002006-06-24T13:31:00.000-07:00Gavin:Re-read all the comments in this thread and ...Gavin:<BR/><BR/>Re-read all the comments in this thread and realize that I wasn't saying you were "dragging Andy Stanley" into this: I said yoiu should cut him some slack.<BR/><BR/>Be at peace, if you please.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151122846031363022006-06-23T21:20:00.000-07:002006-06-23T21:20:00.000-07:00Tad -- I said:The discussion was about church lead...Tad -- I said:<BR/><BR/><I>The discussion was about church leadership, and whether the metaphor of the shepherd was useful in a society like America where 95% of the people have never seen one sheep, let alone a flock, let alone a person who was herding sheep.</I><BR/><BR/>I didn't say you said this. And I thought dragging Andy Stanley into is again was excessive. This was a blog post about what my wife said, not about what you said.<BR/><BR/>And not that your insights aren't completely riveting, btw. But you have a blog, she doesn't, and I haven't posted at TeamPyro all week.<BR/><BR/>You're just mad that my Sunday School lessons are drawing as many adults as Worship.<BR/><BR/>Doh!FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151120943576369632006-06-23T20:49:00.000-07:002006-06-23T20:49:00.000-07:00Good thoughts. I Like the word pastor and shepherd...Good thoughts. I Like the word pastor and shepherd as well. Elders/pastros are enamples to the church, and we are to protect the church, or flock, from wolves in sheeps clothing.<BR/> Hebrews 13:7,17,& 24 and, Luke 22:26 and, Acts 14:12; 15:22 would also be a good word study as to the role of shepherds.<BR/>I see the leaders role in the Church today as not understood by the Church very well. I know in my own church there is a lot of misunderstanding what the role of elders is, and what an elder lead church is.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151119757304723802006-06-23T20:29:00.000-07:002006-06-23T20:29:00.000-07:00Frank:Did I say that the shepherd metaphor was not...Frank:<BR/><BR/>Did I say that the shepherd metaphor was not relevant for today? I don't remeber this?Tad Thompsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02983591448301259760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151102800567677322006-06-23T15:46:00.000-07:002006-06-23T15:46:00.000-07:00centuri0n said:Now, before any of you start the “p...centuri0n said:<BR/>Now, before any of you start the “perspicuity of scripture” organ up and set your monkey to dancing, this was not a discussion questioning the sufficiency of Scripture.<BR/><BR/>-Maybe I'm paranoid, but I can't help but feel that this comment was directed at me. :)Andrew Lindseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543222209236040112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151101014804368402006-06-23T15:16:00.000-07:002006-06-23T15:16:00.000-07:00Frank great post.Also where is that monkey post yo...Frank great post.<BR/><BR/>Also where is that monkey post you did a while back. I need to go read it again and see if I have gained enough intelligence to understand it.Scott Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11141352576274672374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151100190938651692006-06-23T15:03:00.000-07:002006-06-23T15:03:00.000-07:00I have links on the right sidebar of my blog under...I have links on the right sidebar of my blog under the title, "Women I Respect" ; "Men I respect" (My husband being the top pic); and "other links"... all of the above categories of links have about 10+ links within them; and then I have a category called "in a class by itself" because half the time I think the person that runs that blog is partially insane and a tad frightening... there is only one link there. (hmmmm.... who could that be?)<BR/><BR/>Anyway... this was a really good, thought-provoking post.4givenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604421713579961024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151093475717886502006-06-23T13:11:00.001-07:002006-06-23T13:11:00.001-07:00Hey frank I did not know you were so...farm-wise! ...Hey frank I did not know you were so...farm-wise! I have the privilege of living and ministering where the sheep/shepherd language goes over pretty well. I guess that is because sheep out number people about 10 to 1. Over the years I have had to do some study in many different areas to try to understand the Biblical message and application. For instance,until I moved to a wine producing area I did not have any idea the significance of the vine and the branches. The Word is so much richer than my feeble mind can embrace. Hey sheeps ain't stoopid they are just a little slow.Patagonia Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10934713185617461271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151092711326518352006-06-23T12:58:00.000-07:002006-06-23T12:58:00.000-07:00James, you got a deal.Frank, probably right. But ...James, you got a deal.<BR/><BR/>Frank, probably right. But they don't have CNN to deal with, or Oprah, or the View. :0)Mike Yhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14897602903962464086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151091843345300392006-06-23T12:44:00.000-07:002006-06-23T12:44:00.000-07:00I happen to know that the Swahili are excellent he...I happen to know that the Swahili are excellent herdsmen, and they'd get it in a snap.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151091786171616812006-06-23T12:43:00.000-07:002006-06-23T12:43:00.000-07:00Gavin:I'd cut Andy Stanley some slack. I have had...Gavin:<BR/><BR/>I'd cut Andy Stanley some slack. I have had a conversation with him on this topic (with others, on-line), and I don't think his views are as rancorous as some people (including me) may have made them out to be.<BR/><BR/>Everyody can't be perfect, including me. Including you.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151091722147311472006-06-23T12:42:00.000-07:002006-06-23T12:42:00.000-07:00I'll make a deal with you, Mike. If I find out wh...I'll make a deal with you, <B>Mike</B>. If I find out what the word(s) is in Swahili, I'll post it to the front page right over the top of Frank's next post.<BR/><BR/>:>)Momohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04292177473341691525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151091591752656902006-06-23T12:39:00.002-07:002006-06-23T12:39:00.002-07:00James --I should have e-mailed dibs on the friday ...James --<BR/><BR/>I should have e-mailed dibs on the friday post. My bad.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151091559537607252006-06-23T12:39:00.001-07:002006-06-23T12:39:00.001-07:00But do you know what it is in Swahili? Now that w...But do you know what it is in Swahili? Now that would be impressive. And you can't look it up.Mike Yhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14897602903962464086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151091555839493062006-06-23T12:39:00.000-07:002006-06-23T12:39:00.000-07:00Jerry --I sympathize with what you;re saying, and ...Jerry --<BR/><BR/>I sympathize with what you;re saying, and I want to be clear that I don't think the ideal of the good shepherd is all one-sided.<BR/><BR/>If, on the one hand, the shepherd is doing <I>good</I> shepherding, he's not being a sheep: he is leading and disciplining and guiding the sheep. And sheep who want their shepherd to be another sheep are, of course, stupid the way sheep are stupid. And I can tell you after visiting a friend's sheep farm, sheeps is stoopid.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, the shepherd must be a good shepherd and be in and among his sheep. Does he have to be an alcoholic if he has an alcoholic sheep? Of course not -- but he must get that sheep to see his sin, and he can't do that from his desk in to office behind the receptionist. On the phone.<BR/><BR/>Is that fair?FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151090689231091302006-06-23T12:24:00.000-07:002006-06-23T12:24:00.000-07:00Mike, it might interest you to know that in Spanis...<B>Mike</B>, it might interest you to know that in Spanish there are not two separate words for the shepherd of a church and the shepherd of a flock of sheep. They are one and the same word. Know what it is? "pastor" (pronounced roughly "pause-tore")<BR/><BR/><B>Frank</B>, sorry to post right over the top of you. That sound you hear in the background is <B><I>not</I></B> Dan high-fiving me. When I started working on my post, yours wasn't up yet and I didn't notice you had posted until I had already put mine on top of it. Kind of eery how I announce my resignation from shepherding ministry right on top of this post, isn't it?Momohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04292177473341691525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151090173630964952006-06-23T12:16:00.000-07:002006-06-23T12:16:00.000-07:00I hope this isn't too much of a bunny trail, but i...I hope this isn't too much of a bunny trail, but it jogged my memory of an argument I was having with one of the Emergents over the authority, inerrancy and sufficiency of Scripture. He tried to throw at me the idea that natives of Irian Jaya wouldn't know what "whiter than snow" meant because there was no snow. Therefore, Scripture fails to communicate. I really found that irritating, because either he was really stupid or he thought that I was really stupid. They might have never seen snow, but I am sure they see white eyeballs or other things colored white, and I am sure they understand what washing or cleaning means. <BR/><BR/>Sometimes I think people niggle too much and make major mountains out of things that ought not to be that hard to understand. <BR/><BR/>Frank, I am waiting for someone to challenge your use of the word "shepherd" as inappropriate because it conjures up images of the shepherding movement made famous by the late Derek Prince and Bob Mumford. :) <BR/><BR/>I've been arguing with postmoderns too long, haven't I?Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151089957517244432006-06-23T12:12:00.000-07:002006-06-23T12:12:00.000-07:00What about herding cats as a potential analogy? I...What about herding cats as a potential analogy? <BR/><BR/>I'm serious. Okay, mostly serious. :)The Searcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09355359288249938492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151088916886395422006-06-23T11:55:00.000-07:002006-06-23T11:55:00.000-07:00I agree with the function of a pastor is to shephe...I agree with the function of a pastor is to shepherd. Such an action can also be expected of steward. And since the sheep are Christ's and not necessarily the pastor's I was trying to make a distinction. I did not consider, however, the etymology of the word.<BR/><BR/>Trust me, I'm not trying to do away with the function as laid out in the bible. I just notice that when we claim things (and that goes for people too) as our own, and not as Christ's, we tend to get distorted. I'm speaking, of course, very generically concerning men; not you and me specifically.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for pointing back to the etymology.<BR/><BR/>-MikeMike Yhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14897602903962464086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151088409431022242006-06-23T11:46:00.001-07:002006-06-23T11:46:00.001-07:00This is why we leave the text as it is and ask the...This is why we leave the text as it is and ask the shepherds to explain it to us. We have never seen and shepherd, or many of the other metaphors in the Bible, so the good shepherd leads us into the pastures of understanding.<BR/><BR/>The reason we can not substitute any given profession for that of a shepherd is because a shepherd carries out certain functions of untold numbers of professions.<BR/><BR/>A shepherd:<BR/><BR/>As physician - binding up the broken legs<BR/><BR/>As guide - leading to green pastures and away from cliffs<BR/><BR/>As father - protecting the flock from wolves<BR/><BR/>As father - providing water, food, shelter<BR/><BR/>As barber - shearing the sheep<BR/><BR/>As comforter - give peace in death valley<BR/><BR/>As rescuer - persuing lost sheep<BR/><BR/>As midwife - assisting in difficult births<BR/><BR/>As mother - bathing the dirty<BR/><BR/>etc.Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05867823149408300535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151087683404089232006-06-23T11:34:00.000-07:002006-06-23T11:34:00.000-07:00Nicely done Sir Turk so much so I am sending it to...Nicely done Sir Turk so much so I am sending it to a friend of mine.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151087435762151012006-06-23T11:30:00.000-07:002006-06-23T11:30:00.000-07:00I think the problem you have in that question, Mik...I think the problem you have in that question, Mike, is that "pastor" really does literally mean "shepherd" -- that's its etymology. And it is important to remember that the kind of shepherding involved here is <I>good</I> shepherding and not merely any action any shepherd might take as inspired by his sinful heart.<BR/><BR/>1Pet 5 also makes it clear that the overseer should <I>shepherd</I> the flock until the <I>Great Shpeherd</I> appears in glory. <BR/><BR/>I don't think it is problematic to see the role of pastor as shepherd at all -- the prblem is with whether one is a <I>good shepherd</I> or, frankly, a lousy one.<BR/><BR/>My prayer is that your pastor is a good shepherd.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1151086938628726972006-06-23T11:22:00.000-07:002006-06-23T11:22:00.000-07:00Frank,If you are looking for the model of leadersh...Frank,<BR/><BR/><I>If you are looking for the model of leadership demonstrated in Christ, look there at the dirty sheep-herd who lives with his sheep, and sleeps with his sheep, and has to personally stand between his sheep and the wolves.</I><BR/><BR/>Sadly, many pastors still don't see the flock as belonging to Christ and have no problem with sleeping with certain sheep too.<BR/><BR/>Is it possible the distinction in the bible of calling the pastor an overseeer vs. a shepherd is not merely coincidental? In other words, does shepherding necessarily make one a shepherd? Isn't it really a function of a steward?<BR/><BR/>Just a thought?Mike Yhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14897602903962464086noreply@blogger.com