tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post116004811773829897..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: "But otherwise": skewed prioritiesPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160142291373833312006-10-06T06:44:00.000-07:002006-10-06T06:44:00.000-07:004given,Very nice quote, so true. Thanks for sharin...4given,<BR/><BR/>Very nice quote, so true. Thanks for sharing that.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160141653618428912006-10-06T06:34:00.000-07:002006-10-06T06:34:00.000-07:00On Thursday nights we have our church family over ...On Thursday nights we have our church family over for Bible fellowship. We are actually going through a study right now by Gardiner Spring called <B>The Distinguishing Traits of Christian Character</B>. <BR/>Here are some excerpts that reminded me of your post.<BR/><I>The eminent gifts and distinguished usefulness of many professing Christians are no doubt imparted to them for the benefit of the church ofGod, while they themselves are reserved to be cast away. A man may converse on the subject of religion as though his lips were touched with a coal from off the alter, and yet be at heart ignorant of those things in which he is the instructor of others. Oh, it is a lamentable thought, but it is nevertheless true that a man may preach like an apostle, pray like an angel, and have the heart of a fiend.</I>4givenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604421713579961024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160133808686036992006-10-06T04:23:00.000-07:002006-10-06T04:23:00.000-07:00Rick,The more we consider and discuss this the mor...Rick,<BR/><BR/>The more we consider and discuss this the more it illustrates how much we need to be sanctified. We tend to think of the sanctification of our desires and our will, but we also require a sanctification of our thoughts, of our consciences, and even of our priorities. <BR/><BR/>I do believe this is at the heart of the problem of Christians struggling with the idea of nonbelievers and their potential for inclusion in heaven. A man may be truly saved, and even seeking holiness as he understands it, but until his priorities and conscience begin to be brought into accord with God's Word - until he sees that the insult to an infinitely worthy God through unbelief is a terrible sin - he may be confused by the apparent holiness of his unsaved neighbors.Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160129925635802702006-10-06T03:18:00.000-07:002006-10-06T03:18:00.000-07:00Excellent post, Dan!I had a pastor (in a Wesleyan ...Excellent post, Dan!<BR/><BR/>I had a pastor (in a Wesleyan holiness church) who would never lead in a general confession of sin during the worship service. When I asked why, he said, "Well, there may be someone who hasn't sinned during the last week, and they would be lying to confess."<BR/><BR/>I boggled at how to answer that, and thought of the two greatest commandments. "Jesus said to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength is the greatest commandment. Do you honestly believe that any Christian <I>ever</I> does that perfectly for a whole day? Or even a whole hour?"<BR/><BR/>His answer was telling - "Well, I certainly don't."<BR/><BR/>"What do you think would be the greatest sin? Wouldn't it be breaking the greatest commandment? Are you telling me that you, the pastor, commit the greatest sin every day? And still you think there may be someone else in the congregation that <I>doesn't</I>? Besides, even John Wesley, holiness hero, had a general confession in the Methodist liturgy."<BR/><BR/>I think he got it then, but it still never filtered down to the worship service. Sigh.Mark B. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15942591774072214556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160127509454847762006-10-06T02:38:00.000-07:002006-10-06T02:38:00.000-07:00rick,Good thoughts. Here's a couple more.The key v...rick,<BR/><BR/>Good thoughts. Here's a couple more.<BR/><BR/>The key verse in that passage of John 14 for me is v.23: "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My Word".<BR/><BR/>How do we love God? " Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. ... But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us". Rom. 5:5,8<BR/><BR/>Love is the most essential of all fruit of the Spirit.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160113368610336912006-10-05T22:42:00.000-07:002006-10-05T22:42:00.000-07:00Luke,You say: "Another way to put the question I'm...Luke,<BR/><BR/>You say: "Another way to put the question I'm getting at is whether conscience convicts all people--not merely those in Christianized nations--of rejecting JC in the same way it convicts evryone that child abuse is wrong. On an empirical level, this doesn't seem at all clear."<BR/><BR/>My short answer to this would be - Yes - because you are responsible for your rebellion. But it's not that simple. From this side of the question there are issues like original sin, regeneration, common grace, general and special revelation, and many doctrinal matters that are parts of the equation. Romans 1:20 (which is an example of that special revelation)speaks to some of this. But we see that it all begins with the grace of God. It moves from the abstract into the clear light of truth as one matures in wisdom and understanding. What causes this movement? I am drawn to the Father. How? Read John 6:37 & John 6:44. <BR/><BR/>You say "On an empirical level, this doesn't seem at all clear". If I am reading you right I would suggest that a full reading of Phil's post might be of use.<BR/><A HREF="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2006/05/key-to-gospel.html" REL="nofollow">The Key to <BR/>the Gospel</A>Rick Potterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12525495561013100331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160109271629931162006-10-05T21:34:00.000-07:002006-10-05T21:34:00.000-07:00Hi Tom Chantry,You said: "Wouldn't it naturally fo...Hi Tom Chantry,<BR/><BR/>You said: "Wouldn't it naturally follow that the answer to how we love God would be in keeping those commands which relate directly to Him?"<BR/><BR/>I struggled with this concept: How do I love God? I agree with you that being obedient to His commands (as a rule of life) is the answer. John 14:12-24 confirms this. Verse 21 says "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest (reveal) Myself to him."<BR/><BR/>And, just a thought on your final comment where you say "As for conscience, it is at best an imperfect guage of the significance of a sin."<BR/><BR/>I agree with your thrust but I think one point Dan's post iterated was that by focusing on the <I>significance of sin</I> we miss the significance of the One we sin against. Let me use a quote to show my meaning: "<B>The seriousness of an insult rises with the dignity of the one insulted, therefore sin is not small, because it is against a Holy and sovereign God who is worthy of admiration.</B>" We dishonor God when we prefer other things (anything) over Him and that seems to me to be the most sinful insult. I do beleive that conscience can be a more perfect gauge when we focus on the significance of He who is truly significant.<BR/><BR/>What a great comment section from a great post.<BR/><BR/>RickRick Potterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12525495561013100331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160104702423170002006-10-05T20:18:00.000-07:002006-10-05T20:18:00.000-07:00This is some kind of record...I've completely agre...This is some kind of record...I've completely agreed with Dan Phillips two posts in a row! :)Cameronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09572169593647238161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160102238313454432006-10-05T19:37:00.000-07:002006-10-05T19:37:00.000-07:00Luke, You say, "The first command says 'Love God!'...Luke, <BR/><BR/>You say, "The first command says 'Love God!' How? we ask. The second command answers, 'Love your neighbor as yourself." <BR/><BR/>I don't believe there's anything in the text to suggest that the second command is a further application of the first. In fact, in Romans 13 we're told how to love our neighbors: by keeping those commands of God which relate to other persons. Wouldn't it naturally follow that the answer to how we love God would be in keeping those commands which relate directly to Him? And the first of those is to have Him as God and no other - exactly what this post was driving at.<BR/><BR/>As for conscience, it is at best an imperfect guage of the significance of a sin. When Paul argues in Romans 1 that sin has corrupted the conscience, it is with regard to the person and nature of God.Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160095267435002212006-10-05T17:41:00.000-07:002006-10-05T17:41:00.000-07:00luke,I like your thought on loving God. I do belie...luke,<BR/><BR/>I like your thought on loving God. I do believe we love God the most by loving the least of these.<BR/><BR/>However, my first love is Christ, because He first loved me.<BR/><BR/>The risen Lord said to Peter: "Do you love Me?"<BR/>In fact He asked it three times: "Do you love Me?". <BR/><BR/>"Then tend my lambs, and feed my sheep." <BR/><BR/>We all need to love Christ first and before, our wives, children, and even ourselves, and then we can love our wives, children, and even our enemies.<BR/>All for Jesus.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160092977487217722006-10-05T17:02:00.000-07:002006-10-05T17:02:00.000-07:00I also wonder whether molesting children and not p...<I>I also wonder whether molesting children and not professing faith in [Jesus Christ] are on the same level</I><BR/><BR/>They really aren't.<BR/><BR/>That's what the entire post was dedicated to discussing.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160088535328035422006-10-05T15:48:00.000-07:002006-10-05T15:48:00.000-07:00striving,Surely the Lord can move upon any heart h...striving,<BR/><BR/>Surely the Lord can move upon any heart he so desires to, so that even at deaths door, God can forgive someone.<BR/><BR/>These are some deep things to think on.<BR/>Have a blessed evening in His gentle hold. John 10:28donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160084839018177352006-10-05T14:47:00.000-07:002006-10-05T14:47:00.000-07:00Great post, and even greater continuation of the p...Great post, and even greater continuation of the post in your comment discussions with David. You both, together, clarify many important points to living the Christian faith. <BR/><BR/>We can't be moral without Christ. In our humanity, at our best, it is still filthy rags. There are none who are righteous, nope, not one. So, your point is "spot on" with God's word. David also makes a good observation about the failing of many who claim to be walking the Christian faith.Bryan Rileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00788345747841842640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160076538371230692006-10-05T12:28:00.000-07:002006-10-05T12:28:00.000-07:00donsands, yes, thank you. That brings a little mor...donsands, yes, thank you. That brings a little more clarity to it. But does God except those people that ask forgiveness just before death. In "Knowing Scripture" R.c. Sproul, he talks about how if the letter of a commandment is not broke but the spirit of it is, it is still a sin, is it equal punishment. Some think not, less lashes for lusting or desiring something sinful, than actually commiting adultary or murder for example.striving...https://www.blogger.com/profile/02396480726008048950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160074894690245322006-10-05T12:01:00.000-07:002006-10-05T12:01:00.000-07:00DJP:Great post! One of the great lessons my dad ...DJP:<BR/>Great post! One of the great lessons my dad taught me was that the flaw with the idea that we can be good enough to merit God's pleasure is that it works at the extremes (Hitler, Mother Theresa) but fails at the middle. I.e. there is some place on the continuum where Bill gets into heaven because he walked the old lady across the road but Fred goes down because he kicked his dog!<BR/><BR/>I would take issue with you on one thing. I postulate that there is no way that you can really love people unless you really love God. In this way I would say that there is no such thing as a good marriage outside of Christ because I can never really love my wife unless I love God primarily. The trouble is that there are many pagans with better marriages than Christians. But that is another kettle of fish!Jon from Bucksporthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01263042828697185129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160072286862103432006-10-05T11:18:00.000-07:002006-10-05T11:18:00.000-07:00I like what C.S. Lewis says about this sort of thi...I like what C.S. Lewis says about this sort of thing. He talks about morality "getting in the way" of salvation. The moral person (and I know this is using morality in a different way than you did in your post) is many ways has a more difficult time grasping the gospel than the immoral man. <BR/><BR/>For example, look at the parable of the 2 Prodigal Sons (a more aptly named title). You see 2 sons that are equally lost: one does everything the father asks of him and the other rebels in huge ways. Which one is accepted by the father in the end? They are both utterly lost but only one recognizes because the other believes he is a good person.<BR/><BR/>The problem with the "good person" is that they believe they have leverage on God. They have a sense of entitlement and they "want their rights." Unfortunatley, as has been noted numerous times, they will get what is rightfully theirs unless the grace of God is embraced in their life.Tim Nussbaumerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03657400913388141815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160069241994381352006-10-05T10:27:00.000-07:002006-10-05T10:27:00.000-07:00Wow. This is some mind-blowing heart-punching seri...Wow. This is some mind-blowing heart-punching serious dogma that has to be reconciled in your Platonic mind. Great. Great. Writing. Jesus First then all things follow from that.Benjamin P. Glaserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02728290792232181473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160066151283050692006-10-05T09:35:00.000-07:002006-10-05T09:35:00.000-07:00Exactly. Isn't this pretty much one of John's argu...<I>Exactly. Isn't this pretty much one of John's arguments, too, in his first epistle? </I><BR/><BR/>Also Paul in Galatians 5:14, where he reduces the law down to the one commandment to love your neighbor as yourself. This is reconciled to Jesus' use of the two commandments by understanding that we can only fulfill the second if we have already fulfilled the first.Taliesinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06250806687440204400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160063238874298652006-10-05T08:47:00.000-07:002006-10-05T08:47:00.000-07:00Thanks djp. This problem people have with perspec...Thanks <B>djp</B>. This problem people have with perspective is why I never begin a Gospel presentation with, "Jesus loves you," but rather, "God is holy, holy, holy." When we look at the story beginning with God as the reference point, it's easier to see where we need to be; everything is clearer.<BR/><BR/>I've been around books for a bunch of years now, and I'm not real impressed by what professors and scholars are writing and buying. It seems (based on what books are selling)that they prefer something <I>new</I> over something <I>true</I>.Craver Viihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12882284402568264182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160062697289068612006-10-05T08:38:00.000-07:002006-10-05T08:38:00.000-07:00Kaffinator -- Dan, didn't you mean to write "Horiz...<B>Kaffinator</B> -- <I>Dan, didn't you mean to write "Horizontal"? </I><BR/><BR/>AIGH! Yes, of course, you're right. Thank you, I'll go fix it!<BR/><BR/>(It's kind of related to math, which I don't do; so when I use those terms, I have a memory trick... which I failed to use that time! Sorry, and thanks!)DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160062460957376582006-10-05T08:34:00.000-07:002006-10-05T08:34:00.000-07:00I think Luther said the greatest of all charges fr...I think Luther said the greatest of all charges from the Almighty God, is to love Him with all your strength, mind, soul, and heart. And therefore, the greatest sin is to disobey this.<BR/><BR/>striving,<BR/><BR/>Here's a thought that came to me while reading your thoughts.<BR/><BR/>"Most men hope to go to heaven when they die, but few, it may be feared, take the trouble to consider whether they would enjoy heaven if they got there. Heaven is essentially a holy place; its inhabitants are all holy; its occupations are all holy. To be really happy in heaven, it is clear and plain that we must be somewhat trained and made ready for heaven while we are on earth. ... We must be saints before we die, if we are to be saints afterwards in glory. The favourite idea of many, that dying men need nothing except absolution and forgiveness of sins to fit them for their great change, is a profound delusion. ... It is common to hear people saying on their deathbeds, 'I only want the Lord to forgive me my sins, and take me to rest'. But those who say such things forget that the rest of heaven would be utterly useless if we had no heart to enjoy it!" -John Ryle<BR/><BR/>Some food for thought I thought.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160062240933646222006-10-05T08:30:00.000-07:002006-10-05T08:30:00.000-07:00To all these excellent comments I can only add som...To all these excellent comments I can only add some nit-picking:<BR/><BR/>"What outrages us is pederasty, rape, murder, theft, violence -- against people. <B>Vertical</B> crimes."<BR/><BR/>Dan, didn't you mean to write "Horizontal"?Kaffinatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146781661881693212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160061978749607492006-10-05T08:26:00.000-07:002006-10-05T08:26:00.000-07:00Sigh. Sigh. And double sigh.Perhaps one day these ...Sigh. Sigh. And double sigh.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps one day these supposed evangelicals might come to the novel conclusion that God's Word means what it says and says what it means. That is if they can put the wine and brie down long enough.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160060779374057522006-10-05T08:06:00.000-07:002006-10-05T08:06:00.000-07:00It comes down not to, 'Why should God not save per...It comes down not to, 'Why should God not save person X?' but 'Why should God save anyone?' Mercy, mercy, mercy. I feel a song coming on. <BR/><BR/>I tried to read a tome on this by an inclusivist (that is, all who are saved are saved by Christ but some do not realise it during their lifetime as they respond to what revelation they have with the faith God gives them, and then discover in encountering Christ at death that they worship him... cf scene in C.S.Lewis' Last Battle). I felt that he was making the most convoluted theorising which was all unecessary - none of it was heretical in this author's case, but it made me keep thinking, "but God would be just and loving in condeming <I>everyone</I>" - which the author affirmed, but then seemed to ignore in practice.étrangèrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02802871565840479439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1160059347960313242006-10-05T07:42:00.000-07:002006-10-05T07:42:00.000-07:00I think Jonathan Edwards had a good approach. Firs...I think Jonathan Edwards had a good approach. First get people to see and acknowledge their utter depravity, (Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God), instead of trying to prop them up with "good self esteem", hence the "but I'm a good person" argument, then hit them with the absolute love, grace, mercy of God, and a result is right thinking of the first commandment, extending into the second commandment, as we realize our own utter dependence on God for anything at all that is moral.candyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088593538648596769noreply@blogger.com