tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post116277609489916829..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Tying up a few loose endsPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1163107912623147992006-11-09T13:31:00.000-08:002006-11-09T13:31:00.000-08:00Michael,I intended the straight shootin' comment a...Michael,<BR/>I intended the straight shootin' comment as a general statement. My point was that there is a danger in applauding straight shooters because of the willingness to overlook what they shoot at, why they are shooting, their tendency to overshoot, what they cloak from us because of our appreciation, etc soforth. Someone once said we end up practicing what we applauded. In fairness to you, you used that general statement (liking straight shooters) and applied it 'pecifically here (Camp to Piper), so I now see why it was hard to follow (my general warning being taken as exact contention). I hope that clarifies, and I hope you have seen my point as well. Additionally, that was the first podcast of yours I've listened to so it may have been just a style thingy with how you communicate stuff. Cheers.REMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285866237413113428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1163102823412216762006-11-09T12:07:00.000-08:002006-11-09T12:07:00.000-08:00>Please reconsider Michael, your attaboy needs som...>Please reconsider Michael, your attaboy needs some precision here.<BR/><BR/>uh.....I said that I appreciate that Steve Camp openly criticizes Piper, while others who clearly have issues with Piper just say nothing. There are 25 people reading this right now who are in that category.<BR/><BR/>What "attaboy" needs reconsideration. I'm not following you.Michael Spencerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01341176614241094480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1163101331667891162006-11-09T11:42:00.000-08:002006-11-09T11:42:00.000-08:00I wrote my responses to Steve Camp out of respect ...I wrote my responses to Steve Camp out of respect and a desire to become more like Steve as he follows Christ. I think we all have a lot to learn from guys like Camp, even in light of disagreements. As I consider Acts 23:1-5, I need to risk my reputation with a willingness to be bold, even if I inadvertently and unavoidably put my foot in my mouth.<BR/><BR/>Camp’s comments concerned me because I thought they could cause a godly preacher harm (specifically Piper in this instance), even if that was global opposite of his intentions. Even though Camp himself preaches Christ crucified and I happily lock arms with him on that for the sake of the gospel, I was concerned (see Phil 1:15-17). I did not want to see an honest man (Camp) use tactics that only can appear dishonest, mainly because I don't want to see those tactics reused on honest men like Steve Camp. That was it. Read Calvin's comments on Phil 1:15-17 on my blog for further insight. <BR/> <BR/>Finally, in his podcast, Spencer appreciates straight shooters, even ones he disagrees with. Some false teachers I have observed are rewarded for their boldness or "straight shootin" - straight lies, that is. Please reconsider Michael, your attaboy needs some precision here.REMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18285866237413113428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1163078942328438162006-11-09T05:29:00.000-08:002006-11-09T05:29:00.000-08:00Phil,I appreciate your gracious comments. My thoug...Phil,<BR/><BR/>I appreciate your gracious comments. My thought was not that the Reformation was unnecessary; it was very necessary, given the state of the Church at the time. You and I seem to disagree about how or why it was necessary. The Reformation could be necessary for reasons other than establishing a strict criteria of orthodoxy. And my main point just was that to think that it was necessary in the sense of establishing such a criteria implies that everyone pre-Reformation just didn't get it. That's tough to swallow. Anyways, safe travels South of the border.Luke and Rachaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00065798398185249423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1163044235292156772006-11-08T19:50:00.000-08:002006-11-08T19:50:00.000-08:00Luke & Rachael: they're not necessary for orthodox...<B>Luke & Rachael:</B> <I>they're not necessary for orthodoxy.</I><BR/><BR/>See: In your earlier reply you quibbled with the expression "tearing down the foundations." You implied that no one was calling for any kind of seismic paradigm shift. But you've just declared the Protestant Reformation unnecessary.<BR/><BR/>You might <I>think</I> you "respect the Protestant tradition," but if your view of what's truly foundational is correct, the Reformers were just schismatics.<BR/><BR/>I'd say the paradigm shift you are advocating is <I><B>much</B></I> more significant than you want to admit. It would actually entail the abandonment of true Protestantism altogether.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1163040649533523572006-11-08T18:50:00.000-08:002006-11-08T18:50:00.000-08:00Phil,At the risk of wasting energy on a dying thre...Phil,<BR/><BR/>At the risk of wasting energy on a dying thread, I'd counter your response to my question simply by urging a return to 'mere Christianity' as the standard of orthodoxy. Without it we split, and split, and split, and the name-calling and confusion never ceases.<BR/><BR/>Irenaeus, Clement, Justin, Origen, Chrysostom, Cyril, Athanasius, Gregory, Basil, Augustine, and many, many others did just fine without 5 solas and inerrancy and whatever else is being touted as this year's standard of orthodoxy. I'm not saying that we shouldn't articulate these doctrines and defend them; just that they're not necessary for orthodoxy.<BR/><BR/>I respect the Protestant tradition--heck, I am one--but it's not the be all and end all. It expounds and interprets the foundations; it doesn't lay them. The Reformers would've been the first to recognize this. They were willing to die rather than give up what they thought was the right explanation of the foundations. The patristic martyrs, on the other hand, were willing to die to give us something even more foundational than what the Reformers offer. Let's not do an injustice to the Fathers by insisting on something more than what they gave us to count as orthodox; in so doing we rule them out of the orthodoxy they fought so hard to secure.Luke and Rachaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00065798398185249423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1163027459597119412006-11-08T15:10:00.000-08:002006-11-08T15:10:00.000-08:00I discovered TeamPyro and Triablogue by following ...I discovered TeamPyro and Triablogue by following a link from a Lutheran blog to the Internet Monk, then figuring out who he was talking about in his references to the Truly Reformed. There is almost always a lot of substance to posts at TeamPyro and Triablogue. I admire your style of apologetics. Thank you for all your hard work.<BR/><BR/>"Semper Reformanda" means the Church must always be called back to the timeless truths of Scripture because of the sinful human tendency to follow after false doctrine.David Ernsthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08474439439412658821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1163021559672646832006-11-08T13:32:00.000-08:002006-11-08T13:32:00.000-08:00"abandoned Rousas Rushdooney Rousas Rushdooney in ..."abandoned Rousas Rushdooney Rousas Rushdooney in favor of Stan Grenz"<BR/><BR/>Wait. Who did that? What does that even mean? Stan Grenz is associated with a lot of things that he never endorsed or practiced, particularly epistemic skepticism. <BR/><BR/>I look forward to the list of examples showing this to be a widespread trend.Adam Omelianchukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02962074536479488859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1162955729082166642006-11-07T19:15:00.000-08:002006-11-07T19:15:00.000-08:00uh....thanks for....uh.....clearing this one up......uh....thanks for....uh.....clearing this one up....uh....Phil....I uh.....<BR/>didn't realize how....uh clearly I said that Camp spoke for TeamPyro....it's uh....uh..... uhhh.... all over that quote.Michael Spencerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01341176614241094480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1162954931678211062006-11-07T19:02:00.000-08:002006-11-07T19:02:00.000-08:00Brendt: "I listened to the podcast.""Facts" are sl...<B>Brendt:</B> <I>"I listened to the podcast."</I><BR/><BR/>"Facts" are slippery things in the post-evangelical wilderness inhabited by tavern-lackeys, I guess.<BR/><BR/><B>iMonk:</B> (from the podcast): <I>"Driscoll, uh, in a sermon on the humanity of Jesus, has sent the TR blogosphere into outer space. Hunnert 'n' sixty-six comments over at <B>TeamPyro</B> and, uh, I dunno if they've shut it down </I>[Nope.]<I>, and then about fifty on another and they just keep goin' and keep goin'. . . . </I><BR/><BR/><B>iMonk:</B> <I>"[Steve Camp is] associated very much with the uh, with <B>the MacArthur, uh, uh sort of folks.</B> He--he's a straight shooter. I, uh--You know, <B>a lot of these guys</B> </I>[what guys? check the <I><B>immediate antecedent]</B> they kind of hedge, you know? They uh--for example, I think that there's a number of <B>these people</B> that don't like John Piper, but they won't say it, you know? I think they have real issues with Piper. Well, it's not a problem with Camp. . . .</I><BR/><BR/><B>iMonk:</B> <I>"As I said, I have great respect for Steve Camp, cause I think he's a straight shooter, which is opposed to <B>most of these guys</B> </I>[what guys? see "as I said"]<I> which are pretty mealy-mouthed and dodge the bullet and don't say what they think."</I><BR/><BR/>For a year and a half, iMonk has continually and sneeringly pointed to this blog and its predecessor as the epitome of what he falsely labels "TR." So "most of these ["MacArthur, uh, uh sort of"] guys" certainly <I><B>implies</B></I> (or "intimates," as I suggested in the original post) the inclusion of TeamPyro. I'm by no means the only one of iMonk's listeners who thought so.<BR/><BR/><B>Brendt:</B> "So what gives? Is your distaste for iMonk so great that you are unwilling to backtrack a bit, or at least clarify."<BR/><BR/>Not at all. While I don't agree with most of the iMonk's opinions, I like <I>him</I> OK. But I've had enough arguments with him. As I've told him before, he is much too sensitive for someone so cynical.<BR/><BR/>So this time, I was planning to let him have the last word.<BR/><BR/>Oh, well.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1162950440863741122006-11-07T17:47:00.000-08:002006-11-07T17:47:00.000-08:00So, iMonk responds in comment #8, stating that som...So, iMonk responds in comment #8, stating that some of the assertions were untrue. 41 comments later and still no response to that <B><I>fact</I></B> (I listened to the podcast).<BR/><BR/>So iMonk (I guess) assumed that his comment went unnoticed, and waves his hand a bit (ooo, ooo, mr kotter) and in return gets what seems to be a pat on the head and naught else.<BR/><BR/>While I'm not a faithful reader, I have read this blog frequently enough to know that you're not one to shy from disagreement, Phil. So what gives? Is your distaste for iMonk so great that you are unwilling to backtrack a bit, or at least clarify?Brendthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10887039889675340441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1162948787119266672006-11-07T17:19:00.000-08:002006-11-07T17:19:00.000-08:00Reject: "Apu Beyond Thunder Dome"?I can do even be...<B>Reject:</B> <I>"Apu Beyond Thunder Dome"</I>?<BR/><BR/>I can do <A HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9MoiXo55BI&mode=related&search=" REL="nofollow">even better</A> than that.<BR/><BR/>I don't know if this one was an outtake from <I>Varasat,</I> or what. And I can't vouch for the degree of "contextualization" you'll see here. But it illustrates my favorite feature of Hindi movies: they don't generally allow characters to kiss on screen. <I>Almost,</I> but then . . .<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>nope.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1162936723568780102006-11-07T13:58:00.000-08:002006-11-07T13:58:00.000-08:00And Phil, let's make clips of "Apu Beyond Thunder ...And Phil, let's make clips of "Apu Beyond Thunder Dome" a regular feature here at Team Pyro.Jeremiah Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00383097471023108611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1162935732433095782006-11-07T13:42:00.000-08:002006-11-07T13:42:00.000-08:00Well Treat my Williams!Are Phil and the Raja actua...Well Treat my Williams!<BR/><BR/>Are Phil and the Raja actually exchanging pleasantries?<BR/><BR/>This is perplexing!Jeremiah Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00383097471023108611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1162932903141856262006-11-07T12:55:00.000-08:002006-11-07T12:55:00.000-08:00Yes, Michael, you were. Thank you.Yes, Michael, you were. Thank you.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1162930957049989622006-11-07T12:22:00.000-08:002006-11-07T12:22:00.000-08:00I was here in comment #8, answering you specifical...I was here in comment #8, answering you specifically.Michael Spencerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01341176614241094480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1162930745822050292006-11-07T12:19:00.000-08:002006-11-07T12:19:00.000-08:001. Apparently so do you2. I'm not sure the pads wo...1. Apparently so do you<BR/><BR/>2. I'm not sure the pads would stay on since I'm made entirely of cartilage (all 98 pounds of me).Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1162929211582655612006-11-07T11:53:00.000-08:002006-11-07T11:53:00.000-08:001. Your parents have fine musical taste.2. The pad...1. Your parents have fine musical taste.<BR/><BR/>2. The padded shoulders are as crucial to the look as the leather pants and sunglasses.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1162928342292869822006-11-07T11:39:00.000-08:002006-11-07T11:39:00.000-08:00This is crazy - being at my parent's house every w...This is crazy - being at my parent's house every week, I've actually HEARD THESE songs before! <BR/><BR/>And I'm going to own those pants and glasses if it takes my life's pursuit.<BR/><BR/>Seriously though, I'm glad that the entire wardrobe from every Michael Jackson video ever made was available for that video.Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1162927597654948482006-11-07T11:26:00.000-08:002006-11-07T11:26:00.000-08:00... or there's this one, featuring Anil Kapoor, wh...... or there's <A HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wOpL4IuM-M" REL="nofollow">this one,</A> featuring Anil Kapoor, who looks pretty much the way I picture you, Raja.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1162926567299862022006-11-07T11:09:00.000-08:002006-11-07T11:09:00.000-08:00It's like Thanksgiving at my parent's house!It's like Thanksgiving at my parent's house!Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1162925738411051782006-11-07T10:55:00.000-08:002006-11-07T10:55:00.000-08:00Raja: "I should have asked for something bigger, l...<B>Raja:</B> <I>"I should have asked for something bigger, like some Hindi music or something."</I><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BnXNHxzJl0" REL="nofollow">Ask and ye shall receive.</A>Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1162923002049277692006-11-07T10:10:00.000-08:002006-11-07T10:10:00.000-08:00Wow! Cool. Thanks, Phil! I should have asked fo...Wow! Cool. Thanks, Phil! I should have asked for something bigger, like some Hindi music or something.Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1162922087213095932006-11-07T09:54:00.000-08:002006-11-07T09:54:00.000-08:00Raja:First of all, let me say something uncharacte...<B>Raja:</B><BR/><BR/>First of all, let me say something uncharacteristically nice about you: I appreciate that you come here and actually participate in the discussion, rather than merely lobbing insinuations from some distant members-only blog. I also appreciate your persistence (sincerely), even though I'm sometimes annoyed by it.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, it seems like you are wanting me to name names and document specific examples of serial paradigm-shifters.<BR/><BR/>I'll tell you what: if time permits, in the next few days (or maybe next week) I'll do a whole post on the virtue of being willing to change one's mind and the corresponding evil of never actually making up one's mind.<BR/><BR/>And I'll name and document a couple of examples of people who seem to be suggesting that chronic ambivalence is the very essence of humility—but who in the midst of their own repeated seismic worldview shifts have never once paused from writing, preaching and making polemic pronouncements long enough to regain their own spiritual and intellectual footing.<BR/><BR/>Just because you asked. OK?Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1162918300757040422006-11-07T08:51:00.000-08:002006-11-07T08:51:00.000-08:00I guess I haven't known most of the people in the ...I guess I haven't known most of the people in the blogosphere I've interacted with for very long, so I don't know how regularly they undergo the sorts of changes you mentioned. I'd agree that the changes you mentioned are pretty big ones - but I have no evidence that such shifts are recurring features in their lives. Moreover I'm also not sure about the degree to which people's views have actually changed. In other words, though someone may appropriate this or that from Stan Grenz, I don't know if, for the majority of them, it would constitute a relinquishing of Reformed theology and wholesale embracing of postmodern approaches as much as a piecemeal adjustment here and there in an otherwise Reformed theology.Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.com