tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post116843420700327505..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: I saw The Chan VideoPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168586449934925482007-01-11T23:20:00.000-08:002007-01-11T23:20:00.000-08:00I realise there's been some heat in discussion on ...I realise there's been some heat in discussion on this. I've been thinking about some of these things independently of your posts and discussing some things to do with the bible and how it is tranlsated. So my thoughts here spring from that quite a bit. Just to let you know where I'm coming from. It's helpful to look at the positions and points rather than at people, and assess the positions and points I think.Catezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14514176885131945814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168580863253000942007-01-11T21:47:00.000-08:002007-01-11T21:47:00.000-08:00Hi Frank,That's the Gospel -- but it's Christianes...Hi Frank,<BR/><BR/><I>That's the Gospel -- but it's Christianese. I mean, what's a Christ? What's Scripture -- and why does that matter? What's sin? Why does anyone have to die for it? Why did Christ die for it? What's "raised from the dead"?<BR/><BR/>My opinion is that if you asked most people -- most Christians in church -- they couldn't define the word "Christ" for you. To them, it's Jesus last name.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm inclined to agree with you - it can be communicated as Christianese. I think a person would say "what scriptures?" On the other hand, most people have heard of the bible - saying "the bible" would make more sense. That doesn't mean taking the translated word "scriptures" out of the bible - it means telling people what scriptures we are referring to - what "scriptures" means.<BR/><BR/>There are words which are commonly used in our culture - "justification" is one of them - but which we do need to explain the Christian meaning of. That doesn't mean we can't use the word, but we take the cultural reference point and then explain it. Being aware the Holy Spirit illuminates it.<BR/><BR/>But terms which aren't in prevalent use take more explaining/translation. And I think that's what you are saying when you refer to Christianese. <BR/><BR/>I also think it's definitely Christianese when a whole lot of words are cobbled into a sentence, even though some may be common usage words, because they have a theological meaning. i.e. I could say to a non-Christian, "Do you know that Christ is your substitutionary atonement and justification, and brings redemption, and you need experience the efficacy of regeneration and to submit to his sovreignty in repentance?"<BR/><BR/>I could say that. Or I could say it in a more understandable way, not using Christianese - and perhaps take one common word like "justification" and explain how justification as we commonly refer to it in conversation points to a much more important justification. And then explain what that is.<BR/><BR/>I think you've made a good point. What you were referring to is in the bible - but expecting non-Christians to be familiar with the context of the bible, and what some things mean or refer to is unrealistic. The letters were written to the church - Paul was distilling the message for them. It doesn't mean that anything we quote from the bible is automatically appropriate - I wouldn't quote the genealogies to people. I wouldn't quote a number of things in an eveangelistic or pre-eveangelistic conversation.<BR/><BR/>So while I think some words, such as "justification" are actually in common usage much more than we might think, I also think we need to explain how they mean something different, and spiritually life-giving, when talking to non-Christians. And I think rolling out a whole stream of words, or quotes, without translation for folks is Christianese.<BR/><BR/>The point made in this discussion (not by you) that the video doesn't give bible references for people to look up seems weak to me. While people have heard of the bible, my observation is that they don't have one, or don't read it if they do, and don't look things up. That's what we do. The Holy Spirit effectively draws and convicts - and it is not necessary to give chapter and verse all the time in conversations with non-Christians. But we do need to be understandable - which Paul and other 1st Century Christians were well aware of.<BR/><BR/>If the passage in the bible is about the gospel, but contains terms in need of explanation - then let's explain the terms.Catezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14514176885131945814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168553549413891762007-01-11T14:12:00.000-08:002007-01-11T14:12:00.000-08:00Frank, A couple of weeks ago, I read some comments...Frank, <BR/><BR/>A couple of weeks ago, I read some comments about Rick Warren's Christmas message on Fox News. My impression of those comments lead me to believe that given the lengthy amount of time that Warren was allotted on national television, he failed to give a robust, God-centered gospel proclamation.<BR/><BR/>Gospel proclamation is the subject of debate once again.<BR/><BR/>I watched Chan's video, and I believe that if he had 5 hours he would have still failed to give a proper Biblical proclamation because he failed in his 15 minutes of his synergistic infomerical. <BR/><BR/>Chan's gospel message is repeated thousands of times every Sunday in seeker and emergent churches, except his content here is given aesthetic aid via film. <BR/><BR/>Not to rehash the criticisms, but I do believe that Steve Camp's observations of Chan's gospel presentation were accurate and instructive.<BR/><BR/>Chan had some good things to say, but fell far from being something that I would want to present to an unbeliever.<BR/><BR/>I love you Frank. I encourage you to rethink Chan's content (and contextualization). <BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>Alan<BR/><BR/><I>“My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.”</I> (John 10:27)Alan E. Kurschnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08963783504805163298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168535865162652472007-01-11T09:17:00.000-08:002007-01-11T09:17:00.000-08:00Frank:"That's the Gospel -- but it's Christianese....<B>Frank:</B><BR/><I>"That's the Gospel -- but it's Christianese.</I><BR/>No, it's Scripture--and there is power in the Word of God proclaimed and explained. One of the duties of the pastor is to "give the sense of it." Neh. 8:8 "They read from the book, from the law of God, translating to give the sense so that they understood the reading." <BR/><BR/>Whether in a pulpit, home bible study, Starbucks haivng a coffee with a discipleship group, or in a video, the pastors duty is to communicate accurately God's Word, in this case the gospel, and "give the sense of it."<BR/><BR/>Actually, your "last verse" is a combination of two verses: the first half is from part of 1 John 4:10; and the second half is from part of Romans 5:8. So no, it doesn't change your affirmation substantially. :-).<BR/><BR/>Lastly, time constraints is not what dictates truth claims. 15 minutes of video time is a good amount of time to communicate (the average sitcom is only about 21 minutes in length). You can actually say a lot in that time frame--it all depends on what you want to say. <BR/><BR/>You can spend, say... two minutes talking about how fast the earth revolves around the sun, that God created laughter, and how cool the day is going to be, etc. OR, you could explain the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the grave.<BR/><BR/>Priorities.<BR/><BR/>But I am grateful to hear that if you were making a video you would include the resurrection which Pastor Chan chose not to.SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168534133288503372007-01-11T08:48:00.000-08:002007-01-11T08:48:00.000-08:00For the van Impe fans, I forgot to mention that my...For the van Impe fans, I forgot to mention that my second verse of scripture is Rom 5:8. I'm sure that changes my affirmation substantially.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168533947684376182007-01-11T08:45:00.000-08:002007-01-11T08:45:00.000-08:00Ms. Bleil:Christ died for our sins, in accordance ...Ms. Bleil:<BR/><BR/>Christ died for our sins, in accordance with the Scripture; He was buried, and he was raised on the third day, in accordance with the Scripture. That's 1Cor 15:3-4. That's what people need to know.<BR/><BR/>That's the Gospel -- but it's Christianese. I mean, what's a Christ? What's Scripture -- and why does that matter? What's sin? Why does anyone have to die for it? Why did Christ die for it? What's "raised from the dead"?<BR/><BR/>My opinion is that if you asked most people -- most Christians in church -- they couldn't define the word "Christ" for you. To them, it's Jesus last name. The have no idea what it means that Paul told the Jews that Jesus whom they crucified is Lord and Christ.<BR/><BR/>So if you only have 15 minutes -- or maybe 2 minutes if you're actually talking to a real person -- should you spend yout time dedicated to the nuances of "us", or the escatological and theological implications of "Christ" -- or can you tell someone, "This is how we know what love is -- that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us"?<BR/><BR/>That's the Gospel. <I>That</I> is the Gospel: Christ died for sinners. If you're a sinner, listen up! This is Good News! But you have to <I>receive</I> it -- you have to not just hear it, but do something about it. Say yes! and "do" yes!<BR/><BR/>Thank you for asking.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168483159357815122007-01-10T18:39:00.000-08:002007-01-10T18:39:00.000-08:00I have a DVD of that movie. A copy was left on my...I have a DVD of that movie. A copy was left on my front patio by Chan's ministry. It is not uncommon in the area I live to see cars with the "Juststopandthink.com" logo on them.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.eternitybiblecollege.com/" REL="nofollow">Eternity Bible College</A> is near Tapo St. and Los Angeles Ave. in Simi Valley.Away From The Brinkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01437744242086239050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168480511423844212007-01-10T17:55:00.000-08:002007-01-10T17:55:00.000-08:00Centurion, I said that I do not know what Jonah kn...Centurion, I said that I do not know what Jonah knew about God. I certainly do not believe that he know nothing, I think the text would say that he did know something. I just do not know to what extent.Willow Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02635352181065475996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168478408682869432007-01-10T17:20:00.000-08:002007-01-10T17:20:00.000-08:00Dan,well written! you had me laughing, and I reall...Dan,<BR/><BR/>well written! you had me laughing, and I really liked the video! I'm with you and Frank.Mike Messerlihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09898765959699944927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168475203509665092007-01-10T16:26:00.000-08:002007-01-10T16:26:00.000-08:00My friend Frank Turk, and my acquaintance Steve Ca...<I>My friend Frank Turk, and my acquaintance Steve Camp, have had a little disagreement about this video by Jackie Chan. No, wait, he's the crazy-skilled martial arts guy. Patrick Chan. No no no, he's the single guy who invaded a comment thread with a hysterical plea. This is pastor Francis Chan (who, apparently, is going to be a "camp pastor" with Ergun Caner, among others—a fact from which I draw no significance).</I><BR/><BR/>Hehe, so many Chans! Too hard to keep track of. Is this the start of an Asian invasion? ;-)<BR/><BR/>Seriously, Dan, your entire post was really funny! Thanks for the laughs. :-)Patrick Chanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16095377877712197984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168474152782151992007-01-10T16:09:00.000-08:002007-01-10T16:09:00.000-08:00>The command to repent is paired >with the blessed...>The command to repent is paired >with the blessed, loving promise >to forgive and to establish peace, >the promise to end all enmity.<BR/><BR/>And in the context of this conversation, leave either part of the above equation out and one has an incomplete gospel... i.e. no gospel. Which was Campi's point to begin with.<BR/><BR/>I agree with Willow Walker. The video is "a deeply flawed Arminian presentation". And yes, Calvinists and Reformed types are doomed to unendingly critique contemporary evangelism methods because too many of the evangelism methods in our Finneyan Christianity(including the "back to Acts" mentality) are unbiblical.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03880337516584157981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168473336613700632007-01-10T15:55:00.000-08:002007-01-10T15:55:00.000-08:00Phil:You can always count on the home-school moms ...Phil:<BR/><BR/><I>You can always count on the home-school moms to get straight to the heart of the real issues.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, Phil, it's more a case of when I don't have anything <I>real</I> to add to the conversation, a quick grammatical correction will suffice.Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02288648996304246570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168469864392725722007-01-10T14:57:00.000-08:002007-01-10T14:57:00.000-08:00Kim: "God is the subject, Mr. Chan, and created is...<B>Kim:</B> <I>"God is the subject, Mr. Chan, and created is a transitive verb, and the direct objects are "you" and "me."</I><BR/><BR/>THANK YOU, KIM, for injecting a little grammatical sanity into what was becoming a very tedious conversation.<BR/><BR/>You can always count on the home-school moms to get straight to the heart of the <I><B>real</B></I> issues.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168468507978830422007-01-10T14:35:00.000-08:002007-01-10T14:35:00.000-08:00I have a few thoughts on the matter myself in my l...I have a few thoughts on the matter myself in my little blog corner. Not funny like Dan though.candyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088593538648596769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168466779070122312007-01-10T14:06:00.000-08:002007-01-10T14:06:00.000-08:00Willow:As far as your apology has anything to do w...Willow:<BR/><BR/>As far as your apology has anything to do with what you said, I accept it.<BR/><BR/>After that, I find it funny that Jonah the prophet doesn't really know anything about the character of God. And I mean "punch line" funny, not curious.<BR/>____________________________________<BR/><BR/>Ms. Bleil,<BR/><BR/>I think the Chan video is spot-on. Dan and Phil might find it a little, well, beach-flavored, but Chan lives in Simi Valley. He's not talking to college professors or Pharisees or even people in church: he's talking to people who live a fairly theology-neutral life who have the vaguest possible notion about who and what God is, and he wants them to know that God loves.<BR/><BR/>Listen: we live in a part of the world where the idea that we might have physical needs unmet is practically unthinkable -- and most people don't know how to be thankful to God for that because they think that's standard issue, they deserve it. But even with all their met needs, they find themselves in this place where there is no love -- the most basic need of any human being.<BR/><BR/>I know this because I was once one of those people. I know this because I have a brother who is still one of those people. And in that, the breakthrough question for those people is not, "whence comest justice? wherefore judgment against the wicked?" It is, "is there such a thing as love? Do I imagine it? Can I know what it is?"<BR/><BR/>God answers that question. And He answers it in the context of the Cross -- because the answer to justice at the Cross is -LOVE-. Ans the offer of the cross -- the <I>offer</I> of Christ to be a substitution -- is made <I>to</I> all men. All men who hear it receive the free offer of the Gospel. In that, all men receive the free offer that <I>Love can overcome sin and the justice due to sin.</I><BR/><BR/>Some people can't say the words, "hey: Jesus loves you and wants you to repent," because they see the command to repent as only sovereign and only just. But there is a flip side to repentence, which is <I>the willingness to forgive.</I> It may be a command to repent, but it's not an offer which says, "hey: repent and I'll just throw you in jail rather than kill you. Half of eternity inpurgatory is good enough for you."<BR/><BR/>The command to repent is paired with the blessed, loving promise <I>to forgive and to establish peace</I>, the promise to end all enmity.<BR/><BR/>And that, Ms. Bliel, is missing from many, many "reformed" presentations of the Gospel. All five solas, but a failure to present God as loving.<BR/><BR/>Since you asked. God bless you.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168456898792115622007-01-10T11:21:00.000-08:002007-01-10T11:21:00.000-08:00d) If you have construed anything I have said as "...d) If you have construed anything I have said as "taking a shot", I have not. I have simply disagreed. I hope that is apparent.D.R. Brookerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01370318162129850102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168456619022636842007-01-10T11:16:00.000-08:002007-01-10T11:16:00.000-08:00FT wrote:Mr. Brooker: The criticism has gone from ...FT wrote:<BR/><BR/><I>Mr. Brooker: The criticism has gone from "you can't say God loves sinners" to "Chan is a Finneyite".</I><BR/><BR/>a) You <I>can</I> say "God loves sinners," that's why He saves them. But that's completely different than saying "God loves all sinners (men)" or as Chan said, "God loves you and doesn't want to punish you." That's the "sloppy agape" as Camp puts it. I made this point in the other thread.<BR/><BR/>b) I have not said anything about a comparison to Finney.<BR/><BR/>c) I'm not speaking for any other critics so my previous comment should serve as my last. I think even you would agree that improvements could have easily been inserted.D.R. Brookerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01370318162129850102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168454787156141342007-01-10T10:46:00.000-08:002007-01-10T10:46:00.000-08:00Centurion, I do not know you or anything about wha...Centurion, I do not know you or anything about what you believe. What I said was that the question leads me to believe (causes me to wonder.) I did not make a statement directly about what you believe. When someone asks me about God's motive in saving me it usually comes from an unbeliever or an arminian. I did not understand your purpose in asking it and assumed something that evidently is not so, for that I apologize. I am sure that your Theology is not news to the blogosphere but it is news to me. I do not have the time at the moment to answer your question about Ninevah although I do not believe in National Salvation and there is a sorrow that does not lead to salvation. I as well do not have any clue as to what Jonah believed and whatever he attributed it to has no absolute bearing to what is true. I found my atributions to be wrong in many ways when I came to understand reformed Theology. It is the whole of Gods word that decides the truth not any single statement of Jonah's. I must work on the message for Sunday now but I will gladly get back to you later.Willow Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02635352181065475996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168454490039464862007-01-10T10:41:00.000-08:002007-01-10T10:41:00.000-08:00My only problem with the video is where Chan says ...My only problem with the video is where Chan says that "God is crazy about you."<BR/><BR/>I think better language could have been used. Because we all know that we don't know if God is crazy about a particular person. We know that God is crazy about His elect, and angry and those who are in condemnation.<BR/><BR/>*shrug* <BR/><BR/>Other then that, I like the video.Frank Martenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13962831912421867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168454359810291972007-01-10T10:39:00.000-08:002007-01-10T10:39:00.000-08:00Mr. Brooker:The criticism has gone from "you can't...Mr. Brooker:<BR/><BR/>The criticism has gone from "you can't say God loves sinners" to "Chan is a Finneyite".<BR/><BR/>That's hardly reasonable criticism: it's irrational.<BR/><BR/>Re-read my last comment here on Jonah and tell me: how can Jonah call what God did to Ninevah "lovingkindness"? Aren't the Ninevites all sinners who don't even wind up beimg saved?FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168454216454602282007-01-10T10:36:00.000-08:002007-01-10T10:36:00.000-08:00What I enjoy most about this at this point is that...What I enjoy most about this at this point is that these are apparently "little" changes, but they make someone into a Finney or they exunge him from the company of the reformed.<BR/><BR/>I have a meeting to go to. Enjoy yourselves while I am gone.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168453598744577702007-01-10T10:26:00.000-08:002007-01-10T10:26:00.000-08:00Apparently John Piper is not reformed, either.God'...Apparently <A HREF="http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/10/893_The_Design_Love/" REL="nofollow">John Piper is not reformed, either</A>.<BR/><BR/>God's design is a loving design to save men from wrath? Oh boy -- back to the drawing board.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168453063481194202007-01-10T10:17:00.000-08:002007-01-10T10:17:00.000-08:00Why do I not rather want to be accurate and clear ...<I>Why do I not rather want to be accurate and clear and reject anything that is not. The ideal you mentioned should actually be the norm and we should always be striving to be Glorifying God not just getting by. We are to do all things with excellence unto the Lord and if we know what the truth is why would we not use it in it's fullest instead of it's least.</I><BR/><BR/>Excellent point Willow and I think that is what most critics are getting at. This was not an off-the-cuff conversation with a co-worker at the water cooler, but a film that was scripted, choreographed, edited, and released in its current form to say exactly what it said.<BR/><BR/>And let's remember, people are critiquing it here because it was posted in that context. This isn't a matter of "stop criticizing and get out there evangelizing." It would have been <B>easy</B> to make the little insertions and deletions to ensure a more sound and pure gospel message was delivered in the 15 minutes.D.R. Brookerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01370318162129850102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168452905195855602007-01-10T10:15:00.000-08:002007-01-10T10:15:00.000-08:00Ah. Now I'm not reformed.Willow:God spares the ci...Ah. Now I'm not reformed.<BR/><BR/>Willow:<BR/><BR/>God spares the city of Ninevah after Jonah's half-hearted but obedient exclamation for 40 days, "God is going to destroy your city". When God spares that city, Jonah is a little put off.<BR/><BR/>In complaining to God, he says, "Please LORD, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and <I>abundant in lovingkindness,</I> and one who relents concerning calamity. Therefore now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for death is better to me than life." (NASB)<BR/><BR/>What God did to Ninevah was "abundant in lovingkindness", yes? You might like "mercy" better here, but it's the same word that's used for what God does in Ps 17, 25, 26, 36, 40, 42 and so on.<BR/><BR/>Will you please tell me if all of the city of Ninevah is saved unto eternal life, or if Jonah is mad just because God spared them this present destruction?<BR/><BR/>And in either case, can you tell me if Jonah is reformed in his soteriology, or is he also not understanding God's word correctly <I>since he attributes God's motive in acting to love</I>?<BR/><BR/>See: the point here is not to call your salvation into question or doubt. I don't doubt that you accepted Jesus as Lord and Christ. What is in question is whether <I>you had to do anything about it.</I> It seems to me that if someone phrases the Gospel in terms which say, "Jesus is Savior from sin, and He is saving out of love, now you have to accept His love or perish," suddenly this person is a Finneyite, a synergist, not reformed.<BR/><BR/>The call to action is part of the Gospel. We call me to repent of their sins. Francis Chan called men to confess their sin,a nd then change their lives -- obey what Christ commanded. How is that different than when Christ himself says, "no go and sin no more?"<BR/><BR/>However, it is good to know that I'm not actually reformed, and probably news to the Blogosphere. They should have given me a more thorough examination in the blogo-presbytery before I started this gig.<BR/><BR/>Phil: you should e-mail me when you get a chance. We probably need to talk.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1168452783606850662007-01-10T10:13:00.000-08:002007-01-10T10:13:00.000-08:00Oops, I meant to say that I didn't think it was ba...Oops, I meant to say that I didn't think it was bad enough to be atrocious. I don't want to offend anyone who really enjoyed this.Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02288648996304246570noreply@blogger.com