tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post1541787376172846575..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Pragmatism vs. Biblical PreachingPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46856687376261814352012-04-13T08:13:57.712-07:002012-04-13T08:13:57.712-07:00I read the book in a different way. I'm not j...I read the book in a different way. I'm not justifying Warren however, I have been in churches where the minister seemed to have NO purpose in his sermon other than filling the time. What I got out of this book was the decision to do whatever we do in church with an understanding of "why" we were doing it.<br /><br />That purpose can be teaching the great truth's of the Bible or seeing the saints grow in grace. It should not be because "that's what we did last year."Preacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12168646588180107913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51680174632478421052012-04-07T19:45:32.495-07:002012-04-07T19:45:32.495-07:00"He simply applied missional philosophy to hi..."He simply applied missional philosophy to his local church."-Joe<br /><br />That's exactly what is wrong with Rick to me.<br /><br />Preach the Gospel, and teach and preach the truth of God; the whole truth.<br /><br />Humans are sinners and rebels under God's wrath, and we all deserve to be condemned and spend eternity away from our holy Creator, and in hell, where the devil and his cohorts will be. "But God..." Ephesians 2<br /><br />I think Phil is spot on about Rick's pragmatism, and seems there are those like you Joe, who like the pragmatic-gospel.<br /><br />have a great Easter, and may our Lord be glorified in all we say, do, and even think.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48940296940737577852012-04-07T07:24:19.755-07:002012-04-07T07:24:19.755-07:00I love Rick Warren. I think that most of his crit...I love Rick Warren. I think that most of his critics speak from ignorance, jealousy or both. He does not water down the gospel. He is doctrinally sound. He preaches the truth. He simply applied missional philosophy to his local church. Missionaries go to other countries, learn of the people, study the culture, see how the Word of God applies to them, and then teach them. I ask you, how many of his critics have led even one person to Christ this year? How many of you have a church that is doing more than meeting with the same group of people each week? I am a missionary. I am a uber-conservative theologian. I believe in the orthodox faith and that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant and complete Word of God. I believe in salvation by grace through faith. And I think that Rick Warren is incredible.Joe Holmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16792126624822910882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24573244459968901702012-04-07T06:20:40.385-07:002012-04-07T06:20:40.385-07:00This article truly explains the Rick Warren that I...This article truly explains the Rick Warren that I've seen and heard on talk shows,the media, etc. Unlike the late Dr. Falwell, pastor Warren comes off first, not to offend, by speaking the truth in a spirit of love that the late founder of Liberty University did. Rick reminds me so much of Billy Graham when it comes to media. Water it down when in public, but in Warrens case, its watered down with the "flock".harmonno98https://www.blogger.com/profile/09560237250519255039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26464318581653966132012-04-05T16:54:15.748-07:002012-04-05T16:54:15.748-07:00Phil, thank you for this insightful post. The Pyro...Phil, thank you for this insightful post. The Pyros have been very helpful in pointing me to Scripture's teachings in many areas, including the danger of adding pragmatism to evangelism.<br /><br />I read an article a while back by Bob DeWaay that opened my eyes not only to the themes of Warren's pragmatic philosophy, but the practical outworkings of it in churches.<br /><a href="http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue117.htm" rel="nofollow">http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue117.htm</a><br /><br />Titled "How the Church Growth Movement Drives the Gospel out of Churches", it focuses on a book by Dan Southerland, <b><i>Transitioning; Leading Your Church Through Change</i></b>. Warren wrote the foreword, and Southerland plays the part of willing pupil. Beyond the subtle ousting of the Gospel, in reading the article I winced the most at this part, describing how PDChurches are treating 'resisters' of the movement:<br /><br /> <i>In 2010 I am still getting calls and e-mails from people whose churches have become Purpose Driven, and they are being marginalized or pushed out of them. Southerland's book and his seminars label such persons as "resisters" who have placed themselves in opposition to God's vision for the church.</i>Carl C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02186935981253723026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44191299436353133932012-04-04T18:26:28.840-07:002012-04-04T18:26:28.840-07:00It's only April 3rd and we've already foun...It's only April 3rd and we've already found our blog of the month.<br /><br />What other subject de-emphasizes education of the same subject the way Christianity has over the last few decades. More proof that Satan is a genius when believers discourage one another from studying Bible doctrine. More proof of how dangerous he is when a pastor responsible for the spiritual development of so many is afraid to teach the Bible as deep as possible.<br /><br />Todd Wright<br />Wright MinistriesTodd Wright Ministrieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09426161022880212746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82303830726192429072012-04-03T22:54:14.056-07:002012-04-03T22:54:14.056-07:00Great post.
A sad product of "purpose driven...Great post.<br /><br />A sad product of "purpose driven" type preaching is its effect on the spiritual lives of the flock. When feelings and emotions are elevated and doctrine dismissed, believers don't mature. They remain spiritual babes, falling for all kinds of nonsense. Worse, when they read the Word - they tend to interpret it subjectively through the lens of their feelings and emotions...and dig themselves into an even deeper hole. It's tragic. <br /><br />Imo - considering the accountability pastors have for their flocks - these men need to acquire a much greater fear of God...quickly!one busy momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18087795055010641099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88496980537419458332012-04-03T21:38:20.139-07:002012-04-03T21:38:20.139-07:00Reproof and correction through preaching to a corp...Reproof and correction through preaching to a corporate body is precisely the way to convict people who don't want to be scolded because it's not personal. It's the kind of trusting friendship such a one has with a godly believer that reinforces the message personally. You can't gloss guilt without taking the meaning out of the gospel.Jim Pembertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446388434272680014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44206285017454901272012-04-03T20:32:11.518-07:002012-04-03T20:32:11.518-07:00I was so disappointed when my #3 daughter years ag...I was so disappointed when my #3 daughter years ago bought R.Warrens books for members of our family(not strong christians)even more talked the talk that filled his book I tryed to read.When I heard John Macarthurs assessment of "purpose filled life" as inadequate Gospel for non churched to be saved ...I was Glad,not that it was inadequate but that I understood that at almost a glance when I looked into that book.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40665373163971925502012-04-03T13:57:42.063-07:002012-04-03T13:57:42.063-07:00Don't use words like "edification." ...Don't use words like "edification." Seekers don't know what that means.Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89494270546857429332012-04-03T13:42:07.275-07:002012-04-03T13:42:07.275-07:00@Rabbit,
Good point and I agree.
I don’t see how s...@Rabbit,<br />Good point and I agree.<br />I don’t see how someone can cater the message to one group without really alienating the other. So the question really does boil down to what is the purpose of us gathering together? <br />I think the Bible is clear that it should be for the edification of the body, right?Bill Lonashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17659414097078373409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-35414905235596294922012-04-03T08:23:31.663-07:002012-04-03T08:23:31.663-07:00Warren advocates that the pastor be concerned with...Warren advocates that the pastor be concerned with the unchurched, unregenerate unbelievers in his audience, perhaps even more concerned with them than with the faithful believers of his flock. This is like trying to teach my dead grandfather how to knit. Being dead, it's rather impossible for him to even hear my voice or see the yarn. <br /><br />As soon as a pastor begins to tailor the service and his message to the unbelievers in the pews, that means he is diverting attention away from the sheep of his flock. He might *say* he is going to return to meatier topics, but too often, as Tom Chantry said, that phase never arrives. He is more concerned with using Sunday services as a tactical weapon for converting souls, than as a sumptuous buffet from which the true sheep are taking nourishment for the week ahead, to have the weapons and strength to mortify sin and grow up in Christ. <br /><br />When "church" = a blend of sheep and goats and "Sunday service" = goat-centered preschool activities, it should be no wonder that the sheep of that flock would feel starved, abandoned and betrayed.Colloquisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08530006843488477150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54359799180657844602012-04-03T06:48:50.039-07:002012-04-03T06:48:50.039-07:00"Rick Warren is a false teacher, a wolf."..."Rick Warren is a false teacher, a wolf."<br /><br />I don't think he is. I think he is a believer, and has a great personality, and sees the Gospel as so many in our Church today: Shallow. The deep depths of the Gospel, that you do find within the Church, is rare in our day. The Puritan days need to work themselves back into our day.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-59066282213274298342012-04-03T06:42:00.048-07:002012-04-03T06:42:00.048-07:00I have a lot more respect for a good street preach...I have a lot more respect for a good street preacher, than I do the typical preacher with a big church like Warren. Although many street preachers are bozoes, the really good ones are not seeking a receptive audience, they are seeking to stimulate thinking and introspection among a (usually) unreceptive audience. Warren's model seems to be to please the crowd. What a world of difference there is between those two approaches.Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22634950392975248852012-04-03T06:26:31.513-07:002012-04-03T06:26:31.513-07:00Rick Warren is a false teacher, a wolf. If that i...Rick Warren is a false teacher, a wolf. If that is not obvious to people, they need to wake up.Chris Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15959878163583711565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55107210566944009212012-04-02T15:36:28.408-07:002012-04-02T15:36:28.408-07:00Nice message, Phil. I had heard some of it while l...Nice message, Phil. I had heard some of it while looking for your interview with Dr. John a while back. And of course, it's spot on. <br /><br />And I didn't disagree with your post so much, as just note that if we continue to just go after the preachers, instead of answer/address the questions they are raising and trying to answer their way, with an answer that prevents people leaving our churches and becoming seekers, we will have what happened above- one of your commenters painted Matt Chandler and John Piper with the same brush as Joel Osteen and TD Jakes. Guilt by association, and it's hurting the church's mission as much as anything else is... We can argue where to draw that line, and its the conversation we need to have. But my contention is that we need to let some of these issues go until we can present a united alternative across the evangelical front. The gospel is still all over the place. It had been my prayer that people like Matt Chandler knew what they were doing with these strange associations, and as you know, now Acts29 has the gospel as preached by Matt Chandler at it's helm, not just Mark Driscoll's version that seems to need "modern relevance" which was probably a great relief to many. So maybe he knew what he was doing. And what influence has John Piper had on Rick Warren? Time will tell, but possibly he knows what he's doing, too. (And no, I don't think James MacDonald is doing anything but drifting away). But its a conversation that has to be had, just as you spoke at your conference to try and correct some preaching. How are so many pastors coming out of seminary without an understanding of how the gospel of grace is relevant and necesary to Christian living? Is it that difficult to understand? There's a drift out of the gospel of grace, as MacDonald is doing, and there's a constant drift out of moralistic churches, too, it's still a huge problem all over the place. (3 out of 7 Protestant churches in our community are so legalistic it's hard to sit through funerals). We need to present an alternative to these gospels, and are counting on people like you to lead the conversation. Thanks for all you do.Spikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07230232511819803784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-59535455110638415772012-04-02T15:30:41.004-07:002012-04-02T15:30:41.004-07:00It is always troubling when fine theological disti...It is always troubling when fine theological distinctions are ignored, or become viewed as a ball and chain in reaching the world. I thank God for those godly men of old who knew the difference between homoousias and homoiousias. They left a spiritual heritage in their doctrinal distinctions that affects their day and our age far more then the guy with the biggest church who ignores those distinctions.Don Maurerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08821344500146052606noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2876778807252642402012-04-02T15:09:13.882-07:002012-04-02T15:09:13.882-07:00"Since I haven't read the book, I give hi..."Since I haven't read the book, I give him the benefit of the doubt.."-Dan<br /><br />You mean you give Phil the benefit of the doubt, don't you?donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3802578546629532622012-04-02T12:56:54.417-07:002012-04-02T12:56:54.417-07:00Hi Phil, "It" being whatever was making ...Hi Phil, "It" being whatever was making the hearer feel scolded. <br /><br />If I was making a point, it would be two-fold.<br /><br />1) You had said, "How do you preach reproof and correction—not to mention instruction in righteousness—without someone feeling scolded?" (as if instruction = scolding) And I think that none of this has to make someone feel scolded. Esp instruction in righteousness. I submit that a thorough understanding, owning through faith, of the Gospel changes this from scolding to rejoicing, because while the law reproofs, the gospel says God's not looking at our failures, so we can agree with the law knowing it's taken care of, and continue the "joy in the journey" of a deeper understanding of how much we need a savior, getting out of relying on ourselves and into relying on and loving Jesus. As we peel the layers of selfishness away, being corrected/convicted becomes the "norm" of gospel living not the exception, and not a scolding...but rather an exciting part of sanctification, and this begged the question:<br /><br />2) Is this feeling of scolding you assume is going to happen, from a lack of gospel understanding on the hearers part, and is this why droves left the church and went into word/faith? Let's face it, if you asked 20 good preachers how the gospel affects your life, you're might get 20 different answers. People like Warren are asking that very question, as you quoted him above, "The unchurched . . . do want to hear how the Bible relates to their lives" and I say, it's a clear owning of the true gospel through faith that enables the rest of the bible to speak to us, or it just pushes people away, sorta like a scolding would, into the wrong gospel. Jesus scolded some, but by and large he preached trust in Him and Hope for salvation, as the doorway out of the human condition. Not that I am defending Warren, I'm just saying he's trying to address (wrongly) a true need that he sees, as are other seeker preachers, and we need to address why so many are seeking, as most of them, or their parents were in church once. We had 'em, and lost 'em. To heretics. Fighting the heretics is great, they've captured the face of the American church, but if we don't figure out what happened in the first place, it's just a band-aid.<br /><br />Thank's for the link to the conference, I know I'll enjoy your message, and I'll see if it answers either of these points. Sorry so long a comment.Spikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07230232511819803784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34299795801583577582012-04-02T12:52:58.072-07:002012-04-02T12:52:58.072-07:00"The crowd does not determine whether or not ..."The crowd does not determine whether or not you speak the truth: the truth is not optional." But then in the next breath he says, "Your audience does determine which truths you choose to speak about. <br /><br />I guess I doesn't see how this is necessarily doublespeak. Surely, any good preacher takes into account where his audience is, and what they need. Even those who preach against such an approach do that. If they aren't, they aren't fulfilling their call from God as a preacher....<br /><br />His comments could be doublespeak, I don't know. Since I haven't read the book, I give him the benefit of the doubt that it isn't doublespeak. But I do know it isn't *necessarily* doublespeak...<br /><br />also...I am pretty much not a fan of Warren.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621673085448699446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-25985521114710849202012-04-02T12:26:39.242-07:002012-04-02T12:26:39.242-07:00Hey Sola,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vY-4zW...Hey Sola, <br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vY-4zWKsJMdonsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-30645440842295925692012-04-02T11:31:51.670-07:002012-04-02T11:31:51.670-07:00I get a kick out of the few comments on here defen...I get a kick out of the few comments on here defending what Warren "meant" when he said that we shouldn't compromise, and then says (seemingly in conflict) that we ought not to preach certain truths. <br />We really don't have to try to decipher what he meant - all you have to do is to look at what he <i>does</i>, that will tell you what he believes. And that's a lot more important than what he wants you to think he believes!Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23932667829228394832012-04-02T11:24:05.030-07:002012-04-02T11:24:05.030-07:00What is the Biblical basis for pragmatism preachin...What is the Biblical basis for pragmatism preaching? I have heard Warren state he believes the Bible is the only authority for faith and practice. If so, where is a pragmatic approach taught in the New Testament? <br /><br />Trying to meet "felt needs" only works if you don't believe that human beings have a fallen nature.willhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17076752545831180556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-5793572751647366362012-04-02T10:07:22.776-07:002012-04-02T10:07:22.776-07:00Excellent, Phil. Couldn't have said it better....Excellent, Phil. Couldn't have said it better. <br /><br />Now, be prepared for the onslaught.... ;)Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-75280144575216279962012-04-02T09:51:59.943-07:002012-04-02T09:51:59.943-07:00Spike "it [what? 'reproof,correction, and...<b>Spike</b> <i>"it</i> [what? 'reproof,correction, and instruction in righteousness'?] <i>unfortunately has come to be the buzz-words for moralistic law preaching."</i><br /><br />See <a href="http://www.shepherdsconference.org/media/details/?mediaID=6794" rel="nofollow"><b>here</b></a> for a lengthy answer to the argument it seems you are trying to make.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.com