tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post1728351892053442126..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: The Problem of Evil (Yes, it IS a Problem)Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12102978503908960202009-10-29T08:46:41.723-07:002009-10-29T08:46:41.723-07:00Very good post and a lot of solid points. I'm ...Very good post and a lot of solid points. I'm a senior with Liberty University and one of the books we had to use was Elmer Towns book entitled, "Theology For Today". On one page, Towns proclaims God's sovereignty and on the very next he denies it. Here is what he said:<br /><br />"Since God is immutable, His decisions are irreversible or unchangeable. God will not get part way through His plan and then change the rules, nor will He change the ultimate destination of His plan... When all men sinned in Adam, God decided to provide a Saviour for all men."<br /><br />I was horrified to read Towns stating that God reacted to sin as if He was caught off guard. It blew some of my fellow students' minds when I said that God willed the fall and had already planned on sending His Son as the Savior. All this was done for God's glory. <br /><br />At least a few of them told me that they were going to research and think about what I said.Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14174986031102245194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87740822898926851522009-10-27T14:26:02.899-07:002009-10-27T14:26:02.899-07:00For me to see the proof that evil exists and that ...For me to see the proof that evil exists and that it flows from our hearts is this: a <a href="http://whyimnotademocrat.blogspot.com/2009/10/gang-rape-at-richmond-high-school-while.html" rel="nofollow">15 year old girl was gang raped</a> here in California, while others just watched, and or participated. <br /><br />When I was studying for my MA in the Philosophy of Religion and Ethics at Biola, the focus seemed to be about how do we defend God for permitting evil. I now think it is rather a question of how does a holy and just God not destroy sinful humanity for rejecting Him. Seems like God has given us all the arguments about evil in His Word, Isaiah 1 comes to mind or Jesus saying that out of our hearts flows evil.Blue Collar Toddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06405341351988210669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63357825990527873712009-10-27T13:48:07.434-07:002009-10-27T13:48:07.434-07:00"But don't throw the baby out with the ba..."But don't throw the baby out with the bath water and conclude God has saved us so He could turn us over to live a life of wild sinful abandon lived however we please."<br /><br />This really highlights the problem of sin. It's absolute deception. Some believe that we CAN live a life of wild sinful abandon because we've precisely flipped where freedom is and where slavery is.<br /><br />We still, as believers, see non-believers as free to sin, and us believers as bound to obey Christ.<br /><br />Now that's partly true, we are bound to Christ. But we are still free in Him, while the unbeliever sins because he can't help himself. He is a slave to sin and so he must sin.<br /><br />But we see sin as freedom.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82593238806725614632009-10-27T11:18:24.747-07:002009-10-27T11:18:24.747-07:00Galatians 2 is talking about justification by the ...Galatians 2 is talking about justification by the law, or by faith. v16 <i>yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.</i> <br />Now that can be used to make sense of verse 19 <i> For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God.</i><br />Therefore we died to the <i>demands and requirements</i> of the law are no longer bound to obey it to gain life. <br />But don't throw the baby out with the bath water and conclude God has saved us so He could turn us over to live a life of wild sinful abandon lived however we please. See John 14:15 or Rom 6:1.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11630461838295942309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9909139621006648702009-10-27T04:36:06.566-07:002009-10-27T04:36:06.566-07:00Some ancient has said that God can use sin sinless...Some ancient has said that God can use sin sinlessly. God blinds and hardens sinners as punishment for sin. Romans 1:18-32 is very clear that God punishes sin by turning sinners over to more sin. The judicial action of God in turning sinners over to more sin is a holy and just action. He is holy and just in doing so and sinners are also used to carry out His holy purposes. The fact that He has holy purposes for sin does not mean that He is tainted by it in any way. The fact that He turns sinners over to their own sinful hearts and desires does not mean that He is putting those sinful desires in their hearts. Evil remains evil and God remains holy and good. <br /><br />The Bible uses the term "evil" (as has been discussed some) to mean something other than moral evil. He does send evil and cause it if we are talking about natural evils such as earthquakes. But that is far from being the same thing as moral evil. There are also things that God can do as a holy God that a fallen human cannot do. He can punish Christ on the cross for sin as a holy and just God because the sins of many were imputed to Christ as He was reckoned a sinner. A holy and just judge can pour out His wrath on the innocent in Himself sacrifice. No human can do that. God can take a life as He pleases as sovereign and because He is a perfect judge. That is not murder for Him.RichardShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366661721715080133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72000985400637175472009-10-27T01:30:35.308-07:002009-10-27T01:30:35.308-07:00I'm satisfied with this explanation:
"Go...I'm satisfied with this explanation:<br /><br />"God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree." ~ 1689 LBCF 3:1<br /><br />Scripture proofs offered by the confession: Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5Sir Brasshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01893578064434019702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24430437618703714412009-10-26T19:16:59.849-07:002009-10-26T19:16:59.849-07:00Has anyone mentioned Rev. 17:17?Has anyone mentioned Rev. 17:17?Roberto Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12001687796231578134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9732940921942041962009-10-26T19:12:40.042-07:002009-10-26T19:12:40.042-07:00"For by him all things were created, in heave..."For by him <b>all</b> things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him." - Colossians 1:16<br /><br />Your friendly neighborhood hypercalvinist,<br />Canyon <br /><br />P.S. Unrelated, but neat, I just realized that this verse mirrors Revelation 4:11.Canyon Shearer, DMinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07532193132267331015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3191510249750835292009-10-26T17:40:06.455-07:002009-10-26T17:40:06.455-07:00round.tuit,
That would be true. It would also tak...round.tuit,<br /><br />That would be true. It would also take a low view of Scripture to say that God did not ordain and decree that evil, specific evil, should happen.<br /><br />To the praise of His glorious grace, no less.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48845343918089451072009-10-26T16:13:34.672-07:002009-10-26T16:13:34.672-07:00It would take a very low view of God and His Word ...It would take a very low view of God and His Word to claim that God created evil, as evidenced by the statement that God can lie. <br /><br />James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34750262875911509702009-10-26T15:14:36.517-07:002009-10-26T15:14:36.517-07:00We want to obey the law b/c we love God. We'r...We want to obey the law b/c we love God. We're no longer bound to the law for salvation, but we love the law b/c it is good.Sir Brasshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01893578064434019702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44006345820141301172009-10-26T13:55:03.348-07:002009-10-26T13:55:03.348-07:00Phil,
Re-reading the post, I have a question.
&q...Phil,<br /><br />Re-reading the post, I have a question.<br /><br />"To obey the law is to imitate God, to be like him, to image him (Ex. 20:11; Lev. 11:44-45; Matt. 5:45; 1 Peter 1:15-16)."<br /><br />Why would we want to obey the law? I thought we were dead to the Law and it's demands. (Gal 2:19)ezekielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11991868400830971195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79816608210151927172009-10-26T13:34:27.629-07:002009-10-26T13:34:27.629-07:00May I dumb down the discussion for a minute?
I...May I dumb down the discussion for a minute?<br /><br />I'm wondering if it is possible to simply define "good" as:<br /><br />~ That which is in harmony with the nature of God<br /><br />~ That which accomplishes His purpose (His glorification and affectation of His will)<br /><br />Also, is it possible to define "evil" as the opposite, namely:<br /><br />~ That which is contrary to the nature of God and<br /><br />~ That which attempts to thwart His purpose.<br /><br />******************************<br /><br />If the above could be considered to be relatively accurate working definitions, then, I am also wondering whether it is possible that (because of our finite limitations and sinful human nature), our perception of "good" and "evil" are either incomplete or corrupted--or both.<br /><br />Because of our limitations, we are incapable of fully comprehending how God is only good and yet has ordained the existence of evil so as to be able to accomplish His desired result. <br /><br />I wonder-----perhaps God has given us a thumbnail sketch of good and evil which directly apply to the way we currently are to approach Him and interact with each other. We need such revelation because "each man doing whatever he thinks is right" ends in disaster. <br /><br /><br />But I think it is safe to say that He has not fully revealed everything about His plan or why He does what He does. As a parent, I may tell my kids "Do this or Don't do that" but not always explain to them the details of 'why'. (I'm reminded of a certain recent Pyro post concerning Deuteronomy 29:29)<br /><br /><br /> <br /><br />Do I need some serious straightening out?<br /><br />HCraig and Heatherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11962442989291080899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85441098826716292922009-10-26T13:18:15.208-07:002009-10-26T13:18:15.208-07:00I happen to think that the ex lex position is perf...I happen to think that the ex lex position is perfectly viable option for the Reformed believer in the face of both the deductive and inductive problem of evil. It maintains the Creator/creater distinction by challenging the assumed acceptability of ascribing culpability/responsibility to God.Roberto Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12001687796231578134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-14436101208918958692009-10-26T12:44:24.699-07:002009-10-26T12:44:24.699-07:00Phil
Yes, I think the differences were on these po...Phil<br />Yes, I think the differences were on these points: 1)Who made man's evil nature, God or man? I say mankind did, when Adam chose to sin. <br />2) Are people sent to Hell because of their deeds, or because of our nature alone? I say "our deeds," even though I realize that our nature dooms us to commit those deeds that send us there (thanks again to Adam's choice).Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79319462576759674342009-10-26T12:32:52.884-07:002009-10-26T12:32:52.884-07:00Strategm I don't see you arguing differently t...Strategm I don't see you arguing differently than Tower here although you both are using words like "you are wrong" and "I disagree" I don't see the distinction, it looks to me like you both have affirmed original sin as ordained by God and executed by Adam.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11630461838295942309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72067634152221836052009-10-26T11:29:06.996-07:002009-10-26T11:29:06.996-07:00ST
Well then, I guess you'd better take it up ...ST<br />Well then, I guess you'd better take it up with Rev. 20th chapter, where it is said that on the Judgement the books are opened and the dead are judged for what they have done.<br />You are seriously confused about this subject. Yes, we have a sin nature we are born with. That nature was "made" by Adam's choice to sin, for in Adam all died. It was not made by God, He simply gave Adam an ability to choose to do good or to do evil. He was the last one who had that choice. So yes, because I am descended from Adam, I "own" my sin nature, yet I can't blame my sinful acts on Adam (even if they are merely thoughts).Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-68691852731485293422009-10-26T11:09:07.743-07:002009-10-26T11:09:07.743-07:00I didn't say they didn't act, nor did I sa...I didn't say they didn't act, nor did I say they were punished soley for having an evil nature. But you seem to think that possession of nature is not an act. The Bible disagrees with you, so do I. And so would all those who were in Achan's tent who were punished for a possession that was forbidden, whether they knew it or not. We do not have to consciously act to be held accountable, now do we? We are objects of wrath by nature, and nature is not what we did, nor is it ours because of some evil we perpetrated. It is, however, the source of what we do. And my point is that exactly, just who was responsible for the nature which is the object of wrath? Is it efficiently the creation of God, or another? Your sponte actions really provide excuse, for we truly are what our nature's bespeak, and not just some vague abstraction. Own it, you are one with your nature. Believe it or not. And you had nothing to do with making it, or making it the object of God's wrath.Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74256470418308465192009-10-26T10:53:59.416-07:002009-10-26T10:53:59.416-07:00If ex lex is true, there is no gospel. If there is...If ex lex is true, there is no gospel. If there is nothing stopping God from lying, He can renege on the whole thing and throw us into Hell. There are no promises. Even if He says that the gospel is the one thing He will not lie about, so what? He might be lying. That is not good news.pentamomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02104010281532583269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58550698758109741002009-10-26T10:52:16.341-07:002009-10-26T10:52:16.341-07:00ST
I think to say that those who are in Hell are t...ST<br />I think to say that those who are in Hell are there simply because of their nature alone is a huge misreprentation of what the Bible says about that. All are born with a nature that makes it impossible for them to do anything but sin. That nature exists because of Adam's sin, not because God made them sin. That's a lot different than saying that they are in Hell because of what they are, not what they've done. <br />If people were sent to Hell because of what they are, then it would be an awfully weird Judgement, wouldn't it? Those who died in the womb would be sent away into eternal flames not as evildoers, but simply because they came into existence. <br />I think if we read what God says to those he sends into Hell, it has everything to do with what they did, not because they were born.Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89554530696258998512009-10-26T10:43:16.429-07:002009-10-26T10:43:16.429-07:00"It's an intent that leads to wrong actio..."It's an intent that leads to wrong actions."<br /><br />So, nature doesn't give rise to them, it is a non-thing, an abstraction? Then the souls in hell are being punished for their evil actions, not because they were evil by nature, they just spontaneously combusted and because of that they are guilty? Really, I thought guilt was an inherent quality in fallen man, attached to his nature as a result of Adam's sin. Aren't we by nature objects of wrath? They way you put it, we're just objects of wrath because of sua sponte, with no source of origin.<br /><br />I am not seminary trained. <br /><br />My question were just questions, not definite answers. As I said it is a real pickle. I simply believe we do not have the equipment to answer. One thing we cannot say is that evil is not a real thing. You use a big Latino, and I guess that answers it as well as most would.Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87982159573721703672009-10-26T10:13:40.642-07:002009-10-26T10:13:40.642-07:00ST: You speak as though evil is a tangible object ...ST: You speak as though evil is a tangible object that you could hold in your hand. That is a very poor analogy, really. Evil is an abstraction - one of those words we use to describe something we can't understand fully. It's an intent that leads to wrong actions.<br />Does judo really exist? I may as well ask that question.<br />Intents arise sua sponte - or they don't arise at all. The one who makes evil intents arise is evil - and God isn't evil, so we know it isn't him. I've never heard anyone go very far beyond that basic truth without resorting to papering over their lack of understanding with words they learned in seminary.Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3542584811292450242009-10-26T10:05:29.535-07:002009-10-26T10:05:29.535-07:00"For by him all things were created, in heave..."For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him."<br /><br />My question: is evil a thing, or is it no thing? Does it have positive existence, that is coming into existence out of nothing, or does it have negative, diminutional, existence, derived from something already existing? The primal question is of course who is the creator of the fallen nature of man? Is that nature truly evil or just a diminution of good? If God, is it a positive thing created ex nihilo or a negative thing created through negation? And would that not leave us with another quandry. Did God create the souls of men first holy and then removed holiness resulting in that which opposes it? Or, we might ask if Lucifer brought evil forth from himself, how did it get into him in the first place?<br /><br />You're right, it is a pickle, no doubt about it.<br /><br />These are difficult questions. We are asked where does evil come from and cannot answer that it does not exist. We must say that it is a real thing and not nothing and even if it is diminutional good, it still must have come into existence, made to be what it is. Just who did that? I am wondering, if we make the existence of it not a positive act of God, then who was the efficient cause of it? Does the creature individually bring it into existence? Does the creature have such power to effect the beginning of what previously did not exist? Or does evil exist outside of the creatures operation on the created order?<br /><br />There are those who have said that God did not effect the fallen nature of man. They are far outside the orthodoxy of Calvinism, for where in Calvinism does man begin either as good or neutral? To the contrary man is created by God, evil. At least from a cursory examination of David's statement, it was God who knit him, all of him, in his mother's womb. Nowhere is it claimed that another hand a hand in the wonderfully made man. So, if God is not the efficient cause, who then is the intermediary between God and his creatures such that they become what he did not create? Jesus said, "You are of your father the devil..." Did he intend to say that the devil is the efficient cause? Unless of course someone wants to argue that the nature of the souls of men are just diminished when created. But then, how do we deal with that if we do not say that good diminished is evil?Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-64145925655873885322009-10-26T10:04:11.820-07:002009-10-26T10:04:11.820-07:00".. it is blasphemous folly to conclude that ...".. it is blasphemous folly to conclude that God can lie, or deny the truth, or otherwise be the agent and efficient cause of evil."<br /><br />Amen to that. What a foolish thing to say that god can lie. Amazing really.<br /><br />If God could sin, then He wouldm't be holy, and so He wouldn't be God.<br /><br />"Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind." 1 Sam. 15:29donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63113668446153069262009-10-26T08:53:17.238-07:002009-10-26T08:53:17.238-07:00Olan Stickland,
I just looked back over Isaiah 45...Olan Stickland,<br /><br />I just looked back over Isaiah 45:7. Bearing in mind your thoughts about context, let's look at the word "darkness"<br /><br />H2822<br />חשׁך<br />chôshek<br />kho-shek'<br />From H2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness: - dark (-ness), night, obscurity.<br /><br />I understand your argument about God's sovereignty over the evil man but do you agree that God created all mankind? Vessels for honorable as well as dishonorable use?<br /><br />Romans 9:21-22 seem to be relevant here. "willing to show His wrath and make His power known".<br /><br />Is it possible that the purpose behind all this is to convince man of his need of a savior? He could have mandated the Law but without the consequences of transgressing the Law it would have proven Him to be weak and ineffective. Boy do we know better today!<br /><br />What is the source of our peace and our joy if it isn't reconciliation with God through Christ? Reconciliation with The God that is willing to show His wrath and make his power known? How would we know the riches of his mercy and grace without the evidence of His wrath and judgement?<br /><br />I have probably more than worn out my welcome and I appreciate your measured response to me. Thank you for your kindness. I think it best to step aside now and watch from the stands.ezekielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11991868400830971195noreply@blogger.com