tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post1748655870628328082..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Not the sharpest knife in the drawer. . .Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22588081862834418242008-09-24T21:26:00.000-07:002008-09-24T21:26:00.000-07:00dOkay, are you guys doing this mistaken identity t...dOkay, are you guys doing this mistaken identity thing on purpose or what? Because if you aren't, considering the subject matter of the post, this is just brilliant irony. I appreciate irony. Irony is hard.Brad Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00197301845256854051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45986872934252029122008-09-23T10:24:00.000-07:002008-09-23T10:24:00.000-07:00What a hoot this thread has been. Put a big smile ...What a hoot this thread has been. Put a big smile on my face, but then I realized that so many seem to be using the thread to harpoon one another, but in a jovial way!<BR/><BR/>So I was wondering if Tb And Dp were working out a response where the extent of the atonement was somehow interrelated to the idea that all Monkeys are sincerely loved of the Lord and should be told so, in case they might repudiate Darwinism and enter into the fold with the sheep.<BR/><BR/>Oops, I am rambling and obsessing about those darn Neo Ameraldians again. <BR/><BR/>Better take my med's quick!<BR/><BR/>Thanks Mr Johnson (doesn't your dad own a Hotel Chain?) for the smile you gave me today, it is much appreciated.<BR/><BR/>Tartanarmy, the mad Scotsman from the Land Down under.....Mark Farnon (Tartanarmy)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11408677103336968440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-64622442000887501482008-09-23T09:57:00.000-07:002008-09-23T09:57:00.000-07:00ed, for whatever it's worth here are my thoughts o...ed, for whatever it's worth here are my thoughts on Christians engaging in debates. First of all, I wish to distinguish between debates which are structured, formal, with rules, etc. as opposed to "debate" which is just a pseudonym for an argument (think Monty Python's Flying Circus).<BR/><BR/>I feel the former is constructive for the debater as well as the audience while the latter is vain as Scripture dictates. I feel any Christian who participates in a true debate <I>must</I> prepare if they wish to do well and as a result they, more often than not, learn more that they can pass along to others as a teacher and/or pastor. There really isn't any objective manner in which a "winner" and "loser" can always be determined (unless one participant truly breaks down violating rules, engaging in ad hominem constantly, etc.). However, if the debate is carried out properly and in Christian love, an audience member may leave with information of which they may ponder. If the issue is a difference on essential doctrine (e.g. -- deity of Christ, salvation, etc.) then division should occur (orthodoxy vs. heresy) but if the issue being debated is secondary or tertiary (iow, non-essential) then differences may be maintained without division.<BR/><BR/>But you probably know that already.<BR/><BR/>I feel that debate has a proper place in Christianity and is yet another teaching tool for the participant as well as the audience.<BR/><BR/>strategem said:<BR/><BR/><I>Maybe you wouldn't seem as imposing if your avatar weren't a lion. A lion implies something like the king of the beasts, lion of Judah, Aslan, or some other grandiose thingamabob. It kind of tees people up to expect the writer to have an attitude of superiority, even if (as in your case) they don't have.</I><BR/><BR/>And then he could be a Detroit Lions football fan. :-)<BR/><BR/>Frank said:<BR/><BR/><I>People who view Phil's response as too strident or brawny are people who have never had any contact, for example, with evolutionary religionists and strident atheists.</I><BR/><BR/>Boy, take a sidetrip over to various Christian discussion groups over via Google groups (ex. -- alt.bible, alt.christnet, alt.religion.christian.baptist, etc.) and you'll witness the writings of many vitriolic atheists, agnostics, cultists, nonChristians, etc.<BR/><BR/>donsands said:<BR/><BR/><I>If Christopher Hitchens called me and wanted to debate secularism, then i would decline.</I><BR/><BR/>And neither would I. Just as not all are called upon to preach, not all are called upon to debate. I've never taken a debate class in my life but I do study the Scriptures as a layperson and read commentaries, articles, sermons, and lessons by reliable Christian authors which encourage, edify and life me up (I could come up off the top of my head with a third word starting with "e" to be aliterative -- oh well, I just ain't that clever today). Therefore whenever I <I>do</I> engage in online discussion on discussion boards, blogs, etc. on various topics, I can participate fairly properly and well. If the person or persons of which I am engaging are not Christians or take a position contrary to orthodoxy, I am able to present a point of view fairly intelligently with Scriptural support. Contrarily, I do not feel I am able to do as well in a debate setting. Writing gives ample time to check and double-check while debate relies on memory, skill, articulation and a cool head. I am fairly articulate and most times I have a cool head but my memory isn't that good and my debate skills are next to nothing.<BR/><BR/>So those Christians who are good with debates (ex. -- James White, Norman Geisler) are ones whom I watch from time to time. I don't think I will be participating in debates anytime soon.Carlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11709263132449139869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-29587949457451273322008-09-23T07:58:00.000-07:002008-09-23T07:58:00.000-07:00"Ray Comfort has debated evolutionists on many occ..."Ray Comfort has debated evolutionists on many occasions not with the purpose of winning a debate but to present the gospel as many times a possible during the debate."<BR/><BR/>And at the same time, we need to present our arguments with passion, logic, and maturity.<BR/><BR/>So many Christians lack these, and the debate becomes a dull thing, even though one may declare Christ crucified, it may have been better off to not have debated. <BR/><BR/>If Christopher Hitchens called me and wanted to debate secularism, then i would decline. Yet a Doug Wilson is more than capable, or a RC Sproul. Someone of that caliber.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73971707651075226252008-09-23T07:09:00.000-07:002008-09-23T07:09:00.000-07:00Rick - will take you up on that offer; naturally, ...Rick - will take you up on that offer; naturally, I'll gladly repay you on <I>Tuesday</I>.Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36937112964089435822008-09-23T07:03:00.000-07:002008-09-23T07:03:00.000-07:00gMy new issue of Creation Magazine came in the mai...gMy new issue of Creation Magazine came in the mail last night. <BR/><A>http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/3871/</A><BR/>It's a great magazine. The gospel is presented in almost every article.<BR/><BR/>I think that the important thing to remember about the creation/evolution debate is that it's value is only as a springboard to the presentation of the gospel. Being able to give an answer enables us to stop debating and move on to the issue of salvation.<BR/><BR/>Ray Comfort has debated evolutionists on many occasions not with the purpose of winning a debate but to present the gospel as many times a possible during the debate. <BR/><BR/>If someone is clinging to a belief in evolution to prop up their disbelief then no amount of debate is going to change that. Only the Holy Spirit has the power to change the unregenerate heart.James Joycehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15983848193844746369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23940693995509838372008-09-23T03:41:00.000-07:002008-09-23T03:41:00.000-07:00But are you THE Phil Johnson, the TV mega-star on ...But are you THE Phil Johnson, the TV mega-star on such programs as Way of the Master?Magister Stevensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15507216978994361047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-25389003618692138262008-09-22T22:58:00.000-07:002008-09-22T22:58:00.000-07:00Hilarious...!Hilarious...!Daniel Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00678184721218949112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-57818802519114334542008-09-22T20:13:00.000-07:002008-09-22T20:13:00.000-07:00Solameanie - Most. Confused. Meta. Ever.Solameanie - <BR/><BR/>Most. Confused. Meta. Ever.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54147294614700751982008-09-22T19:38:00.000-07:002008-09-22T19:38:00.000-07:00This is a propos of nothing, but this thread is so...This is <I>a propos</I> of nothing, but this thread is so confusing and in light of Jason Vaughn's comment...<BR/><BR/>There's a MacArthur Boulevard in Orange County. I found myself wondering recently if it was named for John MacArthur, Douglas MacArthur, or had something to do with MacArthur Park....<BR/><BR/>In all likelihood, it has nothing to do with any of those.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51882643093047526032008-09-22T19:32:00.000-07:002008-09-22T19:32:00.000-07:00That's true Bean. I think Phil Johnson orignally p...That's true Bean. I think Phil Johnson orignally posted something...lol.<BR/><BR/>ZaphonPierre Saikaleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409964448078910855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39842025357338024942008-09-22T19:19:00.000-07:002008-09-22T19:19:00.000-07:00Haha, I think the funniest part is that it took on...Haha, I think the funniest part is that it took only until the second comment for this to turn into a debate about evolution and apologetics...<BR/><BR/>I must not be sober-minded enough. I thought it was a funny letter.beanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08938586259970492839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45249904521054277092008-09-22T19:06:00.000-07:002008-09-22T19:06:00.000-07:00Next your going to tell me Pastor MacArthur and Pa...Next your going to tell me Pastor MacArthur and Patton were not involved with World War II.<BR/><BR/>:)Jmv7000https://www.blogger.com/profile/05862050692091274115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41049133907970862972008-09-22T18:30:00.000-07:002008-09-22T18:30:00.000-07:00In response to Rick Frueh...You said: "I was saved...In response to Rick Frueh...<BR/><BR/>You said: "I was saved still believing in evolution. It took maybe 2 years before I was changed. I find the argument basically unproductive, the issue is Christ, the rest can come later. The New Testament does not seem to make that an issue."<BR/><BR/>The Bible begins not with proof of God but with the presupposition of His being. It is from this platform of presupposing God and His Truth that we go on to argue consistently for the truth of creation, thus setting the background of general revelation for the more specific revelation of Christ. But we should take this approach with secular materialists/atheists who do not presuppose the truth of God or Scriptures. See Acts 17:22-32. <BR/><BR/>The Christian worldview is sufficient to counter all the false philosophies of the world, and is basic to all knowledge. Even to those who do not know God, their reasoning is rendered foolishness because of the self-evident truths of God and creation.Romans 1:18-24. <BR/><BR/>So, it's not unproductive to debate and persuade with sound doctrine, provided the arguments are solid. But given the poor state of 'teaching" in much of modern Evanglicalism today, alot of Christians cannot use sound arguments, based on Scripture and all of God's general truth from nature to mount an effective witness for the Gospel. <BR/>Also, don't underestimate the deadness of man in sin and the inability of the natural man to understand Gospel or Creation truth. <BR/><BR/>ZaphonPierre Saikaleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409964448078910855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-17558382630110784482008-09-22T17:54:00.000-07:002008-09-22T17:54:00.000-07:00Dan,While you and Rick are expressing confusion ab...Dan,<BR/><BR/>While you and Rick are expressing confusion about who's who, you confused me with Strategem. Be careful there. He bites. <BR/><BR/>(just kidding, Strategem!)<BR/><BR/>I grew up in the church of Christ, and still lock horns on the subject now and then. In addition to the "one true church" thing, it always amazed me that they could fault the Catholics for baptismal regeneration then turn around and teach practically the same thing.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-90374674814672602312008-09-22T17:53:00.000-07:002008-09-22T17:53:00.000-07:00I am sorry. It was meant as a joke since I used yo...I am sorry. It was meant as a joke since I used your name instead of Dan's and the humor was that you were outraged.<BR/><BR/>I have never received an e-mail from you. Sorry again.Rick Fruehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22820849122839324772008-09-22T17:30:00.000-07:002008-09-22T17:30:00.000-07:00Who sent whom a rebuke via e-mail? I don't have an...Who sent whom a rebuke via e-mail? <B><I>I</I></B> don't have any record of an exchange like that.<BR/><BR/>Are you sure you don't have me confused with one of the other Phil Johnsons?Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87041811601821353022008-09-22T16:10:00.000-07:002008-09-22T16:10:00.000-07:00No, I meant Dan, unless it was Phil who posted abo...No, I meant Dan, unless it was Phil who posted about the gospel in Proverbs.<BR/><BR/>No, it was you. Thanks.<BR/><BR/>PS - I am sorry Phil for the mistake but the words you used to rebuke me via e-mail were over the top!Rick Fruehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45910632314936386542008-09-22T15:54:00.000-07:002008-09-22T15:54:00.000-07:00By "Phil," do you mean "Dan"? A common mistake, an...By "Phil," do you mean "Dan"? A common mistake, and in my favor, thoiugh to Phil's detriment. Or are you talking past me? Also understandable, perhaps even commendable.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46906825509376972862008-09-22T15:48:00.000-07:002008-09-22T15:48:00.000-07:00Thank you for your words of grace. Phil, we agree ...Thank you for your words of grace. Phil, we agree on all the essentials and disagree on 1% of the rest. We both agree with that the gospel is the only message to effect eternal change.<BR/><BR/>Thank you, brother, I love it when brothers in Christ end in peace. :)Rick Fruehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88775099912906511412008-09-22T15:29:00.001-07:002008-09-22T15:29:00.001-07:00Rick: in reverse order...I'd love to.Would we agre...Rick: in reverse order...<BR/><BR/>I'd love to.<BR/><BR/>Would we agree that "the Gospel" isn't only about "How can I go to Heaven fifty-seven years from now, when I die?" That it is issued on the authority of a foundational command whose premise is "all authority has been given to me in Heaven and on earth" (cf. Matthew 28:18-20)? That His word literally revolutionizes the way we see <I>everything</I> — God, ourselves, others, our world... our world's history, values, priorities, and politics?<BR/><BR/>Agreeing that, then, would we be prepared to bring the Word of God to bear <I>in every location</I> and <I>at every point</I> when it clashes with the world's anti-God faith? In loving and bold confrontation? In every arena? As friends, relatives, churchgoers, neighbors, coworkers, subscribers, readers and citizens charged with the stewardship of a participatory government?<BR/><BR/>Would we point, together, to the mind, work, character and Lordship of Christ in every square inch of God's world?<BR/><BR/>In other words, would we agree with David Wells that, to explain the Gospel to our PoMo culture, we have to start — not with John 3:16, but — with Genesis 1:1?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9944806703711358272008-09-22T15:13:00.000-07:002008-09-22T15:13:00.000-07:00"As in, "Rick Frueh? Isn't that the guy who says '..."As in, "Rick Frueh? Isn't that the guy who says 'Hide!' wherever the Biblical worldview clashes, toe to toe, with the world's worldview?""<BR/><BR/>Almost. I am the guy who says "gospel" wherever the Biblical worldview clashes, toe to toe, with the world's world view. Your word "hide" represents a label about someone with whom I am unfamiliar. Different perspectives do not necessitate personal carcitures about a brother's spiritual walk, especially when it is false and applies to a complete stranger.<BR/><BR/>Come to Tampa and we will go to Clearwater beach together in outdoor witnessing and passing out tracts. I offer that in sincerity and with grace.Rick Fruehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39734882667502269242008-09-22T14:59:00.000-07:002008-09-22T14:59:00.000-07:00Stratagem - it's more of a grandbackground, in my ...Stratagem - it's more of a <I>grand</I>background, in my case. Dad was raised that way. He'd long-since left it before starting our family. But I was forced to attend a few times, when my dad's dad visited. When I was saved at age 17, it was about five years after Pop (Grandpa) died. So I never had any meaningful conversations with him, to know where he was coming from spiritually.<BR/><BR/>Except Dad used to chuckle that CoC prided itself on being the only true church. All the others were just "denominations." So it was the only non-denominational denomination.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-83826845836163903612008-09-22T14:54:00.001-07:002008-09-22T14:54:00.001-07:00Rick f -1. So I do have the right person? Okey dok...Rick f -<BR/><BR/>1. So I do have the right person? Okey doke.<BR/><BR/>2. "I admit, I don't keep you all as straight as Phil does" simply means that Phil seems to have an almost photographic memory for every comment that every commenter has made. I, by contrast, get commenters mixed up. As in, "Uh, ___? Is that the one who...?"<BR/><BR/>As in, "Rick Frueh? Isn't that the guy who says 'Hide!' wherever the Biblical worldview clashes, toe to toe, with the world's worldview?"DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3676248612183641292008-09-22T14:54:00.000-07:002008-09-22T14:54:00.000-07:00We may laugh now, but when the apes take over the ...We may laugh now, but when the apes take over the world...<BR/><BR/>Oh, sorry: had a lapse into <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Boulle" REL="nofollow">Boulleanism</A> there.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.com