tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post2041423671601211926..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: The hardest aspect of pastoral ministry (part three)Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-83505717635176849502008-06-11T18:44:00.000-07:002008-06-11T18:44:00.000-07:00Thanks for not passing over my comments. I unders...Thanks for not passing over my comments. I understood your desire to encourage those who serve as pastors and laborers full time. Reaching me wasn't an issue, I don't think we are so very far apart.<BR/><BR/>In His Might Grip,<BR/>RichAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12988873674168097511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-200213617448982762008-06-08T07:04:00.000-07:002008-06-08T07:04:00.000-07:00Wait, I can't help myself. One last try, though I ...Wait, I can't help myself. One last try, though I fear I'll regret it.<BR/><BR/>Your trucker. He got his load there intact and on time. He knows he did his job. Period.<BR/><BR/>My pastor. His church is small. He's struggling to pay bills. Why is it small? Is it because he did something wrong? Is it because he did something right? He doesn't know. He does know that the size of his church isn't a sign of God's blessing — because there are no such signs. Unlike other fulltime endeavors. It threatens to tear him apart. How does he make peace with that?<BR/><BR/>I just wrote three posts to frame and attempt an answer at (a broader form of) that question.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-30526821393761058172008-06-08T06:49:00.000-07:002008-06-08T06:49:00.000-07:00Glad we agree about the wheel. As to you waiting f...Glad we agree about the wheel. As to you waiting for my thoughts, I'm sorry, but I just have to refer you to the three posts I just wrote which exactly answer your question, and in so many words. Beyond repeating myself, I don't have new thoughts. Sorry I didn't reach you. Grateful I seemed to have reached the pastors who come by, and many others.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12325985837782446042008-06-07T22:01:00.000-07:002008-06-07T22:01:00.000-07:00I think my last paragraph or so didn't vet my ques...I think my last paragraph or so didn't vet my question properly (didn't see a way to edit). I'm not saying that pastors are worrying about being in the spot light, but that they are indeed, by reason of the office, in the spot light. Thereby, everything they do, whether sinful or God driven is examined by the congregation and community, and with that examination, vulnerable to judgment - in this case, a greater judgment than the truck driver sitting in the congregation. However, so as not to confuse my question, if the truck driver is living faithfully for God, his employment may also be jeopardized by the judgment of his trucking line who desire their drivers to speed and keep double books (should he refuse) or to be quiet about their faith in Jesus.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12988873674168097511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-49188093382672777512008-06-07T21:50:00.000-07:002008-06-07T21:50:00.000-07:00The wheel is round, the wheel is round... :-) I do...The wheel is round, the wheel is round... :-) <BR/><BR/>I don't disagree with the abundant amount of encouragement given to pastors within this series, especially while they (you) serve in an office that has little to no tangible metrics to identify success. But I'm still struggling with the notion, mine taken from the writing, that pastors are an esoteric group where scriptural admonitions clearly marked as "to the church" (even in the article's quoting) have special meaning for pastors. <BR/><BR/>My difficulty is related to the sacred vs. the secular split. I see through the whole council of scripture that we are <I>all</I> to employ ourselves with the same heart, that is to say, with our treasures in heaven. So whether a truck driver or a pastor, my first and foremost desire should be to glorify God, not get the truck load in on time. <BR/><BR/>I'm having a difficult time expressing my concern, and I fear being aligned in the same camp as the previous poster (this is not an "authority" discussion), because I don't understand why the author has established pastors, as discussed in the article, as being having an especially difficult 'walk' because they are unable to track progress of their serving.<BR/><BR/>There seems, in the church, to be many Christians who treat their faith as a 1600 ~ 0800 and a Saturday and Sunday faith. IF this style of "faith" was intended by God, I could understand the article more, but the Bible teaches all of us that we are sojourners, strangers in a strange land, etc. That we are all to live as pilgrims in this land, not storing our treasures in this world, but in heaven.<BR/><BR/>With that, the truck driver, while needing to labor to maintain an income, is really laboring for the Lord and should, in his laboring, do so as if he is accountable to God 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Not just with driving, but with what he does while driving. I've seen often that today's American Christian tradition is to consider the secular position, just that, secular and not a part of one's faith. This isn't taught from the pulpit, but this norm is accepted by our American Christian ethos. <BR/><BR/>I understand the pastoral position is a difficult one, as I've mentioned in previous posts, I'm not a pastor, but have friends who serve in that office. They have shared with me some of the struggles that you have mentioned here. It seems however, that the struggle isn't so much one where your labors cannot be measured easily, but one where the pastor is in the spotlight more than the truck driver. That the truck driver can sin and get away with it (technically), but the pastor has to be careful to not only, "not sin," but to look good in the spot light in front of his congregation and the local community. To always look good! Isn't that more of a difference than secular vs. sacred? <BR/><BR/>I look forward to your thoughts. <BR/><BR/>In His Mighty Grip,<BR/>RichAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12988873674168097511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89180881097051811872008-06-05T05:31:00.000-07:002008-06-05T05:31:00.000-07:00Ezekiel, I was afraid I had erred on the side of g...<B>Ezekiel</B>, I was afraid I had erred on the side of generosity in letting your diversion stand, giving you the benefit of the doubt, and offering some Biblical correction.<BR/><BR/>And now you've done again as you have in the past: a 1550+ word response which amounts to, "I really hate what the Bible says on that topic, but here are a bunch of irrelevant verses to make it sound as if I don't."<BR/><BR/>Since you've not dealt honestly with the texts, there's not much more to say. You are indeed doing <I>exactly</I> what Korah and company did, in committing a category error. What's more, it is exactly the same argument as that made by folks who hate what the Bible says about women: same value = same function. But, as has been pointed out to you, your position is anti-Biblical.<BR/><BR/>And then, after saying you were done, you went back on your word by attacking The Spokesman.<BR/><BR/>You are done. That's official.<BR/><BR/>And to all: no more on this diversion. Don't feed the troll. I'll let The Spokesman's response stand. No others. If you're a Biblical Christian 40 years old or more, you've seen this nonsense already, and seen through it. If you haven't, learn from someone who has.<BR/><BR/>Back to the topic of the post, no re-invention of the wheel or extended arguments about whether it's round or not.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44697319155962765782008-06-05T05:16:00.000-07:002008-06-05T05:16:00.000-07:00ezekiel,I have never used the Moses/Korah example ...ezekiel,<BR/><BR/>I have never used the Moses/Korah example to lord it over my flock and beat them into submission. Even when I shared it with you it was to serve as a warning of the dangerous path on which you were trodding - not to lord it over or beat you into submission. <BR/><BR/>Korah's despising Moses' God-given authority (although Moses didn't lord it over) and accusing Moses of lording it over - ("<I>They assembled together against Moses and Aaron, and said to them, 'You have gone far enough, for all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is in their midst; <B>so why do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the Lord</B>?</I>") - is given as an example in the New Testament to show one of the characteristics of ungodly, unregenerate, counterfeit-Christians.<BR/><BR/>Your argument mirrors Korah's! You would even accuse me of lording it over my congregation when you don't have a single shred of evidence of such. You are welcome to contact my church at www.devcobaptist.org and see if any of your accusations are true. You can also listen to many of my sermons online at www.sermonaudio.com/olanstrickland and see if you can find any evidence there.olan stricklandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05345193051857763038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20513501969789706732008-06-05T04:39:00.000-07:002008-06-05T04:39:00.000-07:00the spokesman,One more thing. The next time you en...the spokesman,<BR/><BR/>One more thing. The next time you endeavor to use the Moses/Korah example to lord it over your flock and beat them into submission, I would leave you with one thought. <BR/><BR/>When you do that, you place yourself in the postion of Moses and put the congregation in the place of Korah.<BR/><BR/>See Matthew 23 for what Jesus thinks of that.<BR/><BR/> 1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, <B>2 The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you—but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.</B> 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.<B> 8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. </B>13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.ezekielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11991868400830971195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33854181269642413612008-06-04T22:12:00.000-07:002008-06-04T22:12:00.000-07:00DJP,Having thought about this a bit, I am having t...DJP,<BR/><BR/>Having thought about this a bit, I am having trouble moving on. I hope you can see fit to grant me a bit of grace and bear with me a bit more.<BR/><BR/>Following is a response to your last post. It is lengthy, but the only way that I know how to do it without giving you and others the idea that I cant read your post or the scripture you use for support. Your comments are highlighted, mine in regular text.<BR/><BR/>You began by confessing that you have issues with what the Bible says about authority and structure in the church. A lot of folks have to work through such issues when they become Christian; it isn't in our nature to accept any authority. "You shall be as God" appeals to us all.<BR/><BR/>I don’t so much have issues with what the bible says about authority and structure in the church but I do have issues with what some preachers tell me the bible says about authority and structure in the church. <BR/><BR/>But when we accept the Lordship of Christ, we can then deal better with authorities established by God (Romans 13:1ff.). We all have to deal with those issues at one point or another.<BR/><BR/>I think if you follow all the tsk references to the first verse that you will find Pilate and Nebuchadnezzar among the “governing authorities”. Priests are mentioned in one reference but (Hebrews 10:19-21) makes it clear that we don’t need earthly priests to intercede for us anymore.<BR/><BR/>Hayden said “The reason the veil was torn was not to get rid of all authority in the church but to get rid of the abuse of authority that the Pharisees and Sadducees had.” Actually, we see from Hebrews 10:19-21<BR/><BR/>19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. That is me and you. Us. The Body.<BR/><BR/>That leaves governing authorities, civil authorities, kings and rulers. I don’t see a pastor there anywhere. In fact, if a pastor is a disciple (I think he is) then we have this straight from the mouth of Jesus. <BR/><BR/>“25 And he said to them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those in authority over them are called benefactors. 26 But not so with you. Rather, let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves. 27 For who is the greater, one who reclines at table or one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at table? But I am among you as the one who serves.” <BR/><BR/>A few decades ago, some concerted efforts were made to take apart what the Bible says about order within the church, and to mutate the church into an unstructured non-organization. Now we're sort of in been-there / done-that / let's-not-go-there-again mode.<BR/><BR/> Forgive me, but I wasn’t too interested in these events and don’t have the background to comment. I am not trying to mutate the church. Or despise authority. <BR/><BR/> So, to move on, here's where we've been: <BR/><BR/>1. You floated the "we're all priests" line. It was swiftly pointed out to you that Korah tried that same approach, and it had nothing to do with authority or leadership then, nor does it now. All Christians are priests; not all Christians are pastors.<BR/><BR/>Korah’s sin was that he sought the priesthood also.(Numbers 16:10) We see him connected to Cain and Balaam in Jude. One might say that he sought to exalt himself. Balaam, I think, prophesied for money and Cain killed Able because he was jealous of the better sacrifice that Able made. Now does this sound more like the pew trying to conquer the pulpit or the pastor doing what some do today? <BR/><BR/>2. Then the "the pastor's no different" line resurfaced — which really does give the impression you didn't read either of the preceding posts very well — but were reminded that it has been explained at some length that the pastor is in quite a different position (cf. 1 Corinthians 9:14).<BR/><BR/>See also 9:15ff.<BR/><BR/>Especially 9:19 For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.<BR/><BR/>That doesn’t sound too much like a ruler or an authority exercising lordship over the pew.....Now if we really take Luke 22:25-26 seriously and we consider ourselves disciples then servant is a better position for all of us, including the pastor.<BR/><BR/> 3. You've been reminded that the Bible frequently and clearly assigns to the pastor a different function than other church members. People like you (and I, at the moment) are commanded by God to submit ourselves to the pastor(s) of our local church (e.g. 1 Corinthians 16:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13; Hebrews 13:7, 17) — whereas, conversely, pastors are never told to subordinate themselves to us. By contrast, pastors' work is set aside from others' (1 Timothy 3:1), they are subjected to distinctive requirements (1 Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:5-9), told to assert their leadership seriously and decisively and as effectively as possible (1 Timothy 1:3; 4:11; Titus 2:15, etc.).<BR/><BR/>The same can be said about apostles, prophets, evangelists, and teachers. (Ephesians 4:11) I don't see the clear line of authority given to them either, unless you want to include them in "elders", "leaders" or those over us in Christ<BR/><BR/>Then “16:16. be subject to such as these, and to every fellow worker and laborer.” <BR/><BR/>Now if we follow the tsk references, we find among fellow workers Phil 4:3“Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.” A similar reference indicating mutual submission is found in Ephesians 5:21, Romans 16:3, 3 Jo 1:8<BR/><BR/>Then 1 Thes 5:12 “We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, 13 and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves.” <BR/><BR/>I don’t so much see pastoral authority here either. What I do see is brothers, one over the other in the Lord. One older, one younger, one on milk the other on meat. Sort of like you and me. You are not my pastor but I do consider you “over me in the Lord” and I do respect you!<BR/><BR/>Then Hebrews. Ok, leaders. Notice that is plural. “Those who spoke to you the word of God” In many churches today, that has become decidedly singular in use. And if we continue on, we see “Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith”<BR/>Today, this is more often “obey your pastor and submit to him” never mind the way he conducts himself outside the pulpit.<BR/><BR/>Then “ whereas, conversely, pastors are never told to subordinate themselves to us.” I don’t really know how you handle 1 Cor 12:24-25 or any of the rest of it for that matter. But it doesn’t line up with your statement in my opinion. Neither does 1 Peter 5:3, Ephesians 5:21 or Ephesians 4:1.<BR/><BR/>We are told to be imitators of Christ. Pew and pulpit. It continues to amaze me how a pastor can exalt himself over his congregation and present himself as a ruler and an authority yet claim to be an under shepherd at the same time. Christ humbled himself(John 1:14) and repeatedly throughout his walk to the Cross. If we do indeed claim to be imitators then we will humble ourselves, (Ephesians 5:1) and again (1 Cor 9:19).<BR/><BR/>And as to your remaining issues about "career choice" and all, I would myself again point you to the preceding two points, which already explained what's under discussion in this series.<BR/><BR/>You also do a lot of, "Boy, if we say ABC, then X%@ will follow!" We all need to remember not to oppose our judgment to God's, as expressed in His Word. Also, we must beware extracting a concept, developing it our own way, and then using it to bludgeon specific Biblical texts into fitting our schemes.<BR/><BR/>That just may be the understatement of the day. Thanks for the (WE)! <BR/><BR/> As I said, when I see someone repeating himself, rehearsing issues already answered as if they hadn't been responded to adequately, I just have to say it's time to move on. You seem to be starting to do that. It's time to move on.<BR/><BR/>And you are correct again. I am moving on.<BR/><BR/>Peace Brother.ezekielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11991868400830971195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-70362159803780077752008-06-04T21:50:00.000-07:002008-06-04T21:50:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.ezekielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11991868400830971195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-71658216793980204792008-06-04T15:05:00.000-07:002008-06-04T15:05:00.000-07:00My pastor wrote an excellent page on "Success vs. ...My pastor wrote an excellent page on "Success vs. Excellence." Sarah's comment brought it to mine. IMO, it's worth the length to post it here.<BR/><BR/>I suggest that you pursue a commitment to personal excellence rather than success, based on your own God-given potential. Success and excellence are often competing ideals. Being successful does not necessarily mean you will be excellent, and being excellent does not necessarily mean you will be successful. Success is attaining or achieving cultural goals, which elevates one’s importance in the society in which he lives. Excellence is the pursuit of quality in one’s work and effort, whether the culture recognizes it or not.<BR/><BR/>Success seeks status, power, prestige, wealth, and privilege. Excellence is internal—seeking satisfaction in having done your best. Success is external—how you have done in comparison to others. Excellence is how you have done in relation to your own potential. For me, success seeks to please men, but excellence seeks to please God.<BR/><BR/>Success grants its rewards to a few, but is the dream of the multitudes. Excellence is available to all, but is accepted only by a few. Success engenders a fantasy and a compulsive groping for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Excellence brings us down to a reality with a deep gratitude for the promise of joy when we do our best. Excellence cultivates principles, character, and integrity. Success may be cheap, and you can take shortcuts to get there. You will pay the full price for excellence; it is never discounted. Excellence will always cost you everything, but it is the most lasting and rewarding ideal. What drives you—success or excellence?<BR/><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://music53.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow"> A Musician by Grace</A>Sharonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14534421623031122881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3246676317172300912008-06-04T12:36:00.000-07:002008-06-04T12:36:00.000-07:00"Our Master has never promised us success. He dem..."Our Master has never promised us success. He demands obedience. He expects faithfulness. Results are His concern, not ours. And our reputation is a matter of no consequence at all."<BR/><BR/>"There have been times of late when I have had to hold on to one text with all my might, "It is required in stewards that a man be found faithful." Praise God it does not say 'successful'!"<BR/><BR/>- Amy Carmichael<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>-CarmichaelSarah L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13672663482802830133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-91179610991804007172008-06-04T06:01:00.000-07:002008-06-04T06:01:00.000-07:00One of my favorite series.One of my favorite series.Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14009121709733650503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-6806465769879092502008-06-03T21:46:00.000-07:002008-06-03T21:46:00.000-07:00Thanks. I plan to pass along to our leaders.Thanks. I plan to pass along to our leaders.Chris Braunshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09771419445351378042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46277336629800014472008-06-03T16:37:00.000-07:002008-06-03T16:37:00.000-07:00Ezekiel — at times I'm forced to referee a bit, in...<B>Ezekiel</B> — at times I'm forced to referee a bit, including when the discussion has bogged down, or someone seems stuck. You seem stuck, so I'm stepping in.<BR/><BR/>You began by confessing that you have issues with what the Bible says about authority and structure in the church. A lot of folks have to work through such issues when they become Christian; it isn't in our nature to accept any authority. "You shall be as God" appeals to us all.<BR/><BR/>But when we accept the Lordship of Christ, we can then deal better with authorities established by God (Romans 13:1ff.). We all have to deal with those issues at one point or another.<BR/><BR/>A few decades ago, some concerted efforts were made to take apart what the Bible says about order within the church, and to mutate the church into an unstructured non-organization. Now we're sort of in been-there / done-that / let's-not-go-there-again mode.<BR/><BR/>So, to move on, here's where we've been:<BR/><BR/>1. You floated the "we're all priests" line. It was swiftly pointed out to you that Korah tried that same approach, and it had nothing to do with authority or leadership then, nor does it now. All Christians are priests; not all Christians are pastors.<BR/><BR/>2. Then the "the pastor's no different" line resurfaced — which really does give the impression you didn't read either of the preceding posts very well — but were reminded that it has been explained at some length that the pastor is in quite a different position (cf. 1 Corinthians 9:14).<BR/><BR/>3. You've been reminded that the Bible frequently and clearly assigns to the pastor a different function than other church members. People like you (and I, at the moment) are commanded by God to submit ourselves to the pastor(s) of our local church (e.g. 1 Corinthians 16:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13; Hebrews 13:7, 17) — whereas, conversely, pastors are never told to subordinate themselves to us. By contrast, pastors' work is set aside from others' (1 Timothy 3:1), they are subjected to distinctive requirements (1 Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:5-9), told to assert their leadership seriously and decisively and as effectively as possible (1 Timothy 1:3; 4:11; Titus 2:15, etc.).<BR/><BR/>And as to your remaining issues about "career choice" and all, I would myself again point you to the preceding two points, which already explained what's under discussion in this series.<BR/><BR/>You also do a lot of, "Boy, if we say ABC, then X%@ will follow!" We all need to remember not to oppose our judgment to God's, as expressed in His Word. Also, we must beware extracting a concept, developing it our own way, and then using it to bludgeon specific Biblical texts into fitting our schemes.<BR/><BR/>As I said, when I see someone repeating himself, rehearsing issues already answered as if they hadn't been responded to adequately, I just have to say it's time to move on. You seem to be starting to do that. It's time to move on.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39322497414017829312008-06-03T15:32:00.000-07:002008-06-03T15:32:00.000-07:00Greglong, 5What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Ser...Greglong,<BR/><BR/> 5What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, <B>but God gave the growth. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth.</B> 8He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building.<BR/><BR/>What and Who' success are you measuring? Do you measure success by the number of seed you plant? Do you measure success by the number of plants you water? In the parable of the sower, your seed fall on all types of ground. How can you take credit for that? How do you measure that?<BR/><BR/>Or do you measure success by the amount of growth? If you do, you are measuring God's productivity, not yours. What authority do you have to measure His productivity?<BR/><BR/>Maybe the whole problem is with the terminology of "career choice". That really irks me as well.<BR/><BR/>Was it a calling or was it a choice? If the answer is choice, it would indicate a hireling rather than a disciple.ezekielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11991868400830971195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86449810949581542342008-06-03T15:30:00.000-07:002008-06-03T15:30:00.000-07:00I love triplets:1) the pastorate is a faith-guided...I love triplets:<BR/>1) the pastorate is a faith-guided endeavor,<BR/>2) the pastorate is a God_pleasing endeavor, and<BR/>3) the pastorate is an eschtologically-measured endeavor.<BR/>That would preach, but not "sell". Would that we be found faithful.<BR/><BR/>You have done a good thing, Dan. Grace and peace.Dave ....https://www.blogger.com/profile/06340206720526412975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53576578039035955142008-06-03T15:29:00.000-07:002008-06-03T15:29:00.000-07:00I love triplets:1) the pastorate is a faith-guided...I love triplets:<BR/>1) the pastorate is a faith-guided endeavor,<BR/>2) the pastorate is a God_pleasing endeavor, and<BR/>3) the pastorate is an eschtologically-measured endeavor.<BR/>That would preach, but not "sell". Would that we be found faithful.<BR/><BR/>You have done a good thing, Dan. Grace and peace.Dave ....https://www.blogger.com/profile/06340206720526412975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36255286937631097692008-06-03T15:09:00.000-07:002008-06-03T15:09:00.000-07:00Hayden,Angel of the church simply reads, to me any...Hayden,<BR/><BR/>Angel of the church simply reads, to me anyway, "the messenger" to the church. There are a lot of angels in the Bible that were not pastors. But that is just the way I read it. Others can be just as firm in reading it their way.<BR/><BR/>I can't reconcile the angel to the pastor because we are told that we are higher than angels, we will judge angels, as sons that is, so if my pastor is a brother, he isn't an angel... <BR/><BR/>Passion for the WORD. That is what it all boils down to. Passion for Christ. If one has it, the hunger and thirst is put there by Him and the seat at the table is reserved. Permanently. I don't know how it is going to work, but I can't help but think the seating arrangment is going to shake a lot of folks.<BR/><BR/>Can you imagine what a local church could do if they got the pastor and the pew pulling together, with a hunger for Christ and cooperation of all the parts?<BR/><BR/>Blessing to you brother.ezekielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11991868400830971195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20905795233593929752008-06-03T14:52:00.000-07:002008-06-03T14:52:00.000-07:00Ezekiel,No, the pastor ain't special. But he does ...Ezekiel,<BR/><BR/>No, the pastor ain't special. But he does desire a noble task (1 Tim. 3:1). And he is held to a higher level of accountability than other church goers (1 Tim. 3:1-7). (Notice I did not say a higher level of RESPONSIBILITY, but rather a higher level of ACCOUNTABILITY. All Christians should strive to be "above reproach", etc., but a man can't be a pastor unless he meets these requirements.)<BR/><BR/>And do you dispute Dan's main point that "success" for a pastor is harder to determine than it is for many other career choices? That's primarily what he's saying...not that other workers in the church should focus on anything less than faithfulness to God and His Word.greglonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05514850772020363684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-17331720020650637602008-06-03T14:30:00.000-07:002008-06-03T14:30:00.000-07:00hayden,There certainly are different roles for dif...hayden,<BR/><BR/>There certainly are different roles for different members, different gifting so on. That is not my argument.<BR/><BR/>What I have been saying (I think) is that the way the door greeter gauges success should be the same way the pastor does. And that is <BR/><BR/>“So there you have it. How does the pastor measure success? Not like any human business or employment. The singleminded focus of the pastor must be to please God. But there is only one way he can tell whether he is pleasing God: if he is ministering out of faith and love, and in compliance with the revealed will and priorities and guidelines of God as given in Scripture alone.”<BR/><BR/>You can add SS teacher, cook, janitor, window washer, flower detail, music minister and anyone else you can think of so none...not one.... is left out.<BR/><BR/>Any way you stack it, the pastor ain't special for doing what God gifted and called him to do. (Luke 17, he doesnt come in from the field and get another servant to cook his meal) At least not any more special than any one else or any other part of the body.ezekielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11991868400830971195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-71709984888570586772008-06-03T14:14:00.000-07:002008-06-03T14:14:00.000-07:00Ezekiel,By the way, in the letters to the churches...Ezekiel,<BR/><BR/>By the way, in the letters to the churches in Revelation the phrase 'to the angel of the church' is seen by many as a reference to the pastoral leader of the church. <BR/><BR/>Just because someone is given the responsibility to lead the congregation (see above) does not make them authoritarian. The reason the veil was torn was not to get rid of all authority in the church but to get rid of the abuse of authority that the Pharisees and Sadducees had. <BR/><BR/>I appreciate your zeal my brother. I wish more people were as passionate about the Word.Haydenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01256518337951573331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82695145710506430342008-06-03T14:06:00.000-07:002008-06-03T14:06:00.000-07:00Ezekiel,Is there not differentiation in roles with...Ezekiel,<BR/><BR/>Is there not differentiation in roles within the church? Are not some called to lead? (Hint read the Pastoral letters as well as James 3:1-3)<BR/><BR/>You are right, this can be said of all Christians that we are to be like the Bereans of Acts 17. As a pastor, I would love it if the people went home on Sunday and talked about the sermon and also studied relevant passages. That would be 'success' :)<BR/><BR/>Don't get irked, Dan was writing this series about pastors. Just because we are all a part of the priesthood of believers does not mean that there is no differentiation among the members. (1 Cor 12) Also read 1 Thess 5:12-13; Heb 13:17,18; 1 Tim 5:17. What do these mean if there is no differentiation of roles my brother?Haydenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01256518337951573331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12462818268326690002008-06-03T13:46:00.000-07:002008-06-03T13:46:00.000-07:00The spokesman,As far as I know, there is only one ...The spokesman,<BR/><BR/>As far as I know, there is only one Head though.<BR/><BR/>When you start down the path of using your pastoral authority, you follow in the footsteps of a religous system similar in organization to that in Jerusalem. Where were they leading and where do they lead today? Where does most of the persecution of the christians come from today? Inside the church or outside? <BR/><BR/>Certainly, each has his own position and function within the body. The real problem starts when we start trying to say that the arm is more important than the leg, or the finger more important than the toe. Jesus warns us not to do that.<BR/><BR/>Luke 22:24-30<BR/><BR/>The question is, do you serve your congregation in your capacity of leader or do you exercise lordship? I don't expect that anyone here would have trouble being able to determine the difference, but then, most of the folks here probably read the WORD.<BR/><BR/><BR/>If we look at the letters to the churches in Rev, they were written to the Body of the church. No address to the pastor that I can find. <BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, in a lot of churches today, the janitor is probably much closer to the kingdom than the pastor is. Nothing new with that though.ezekielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11991868400830971195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33770398467129124142008-06-03T13:31:00.000-07:002008-06-03T13:31:00.000-07:00I love the emphasis on Scripture. In fact, here's ...I love the emphasis on Scripture. In fact, here's a good question to ask oneself routinely -- whether you are a pastor or a layperson. <BR/><BR/>How much in love am I with God's Word? When I preach, do I find within its pages what I need to teach, edify, and admonish my flock, or do I need to go to some outside source? <BR/><BR/>As someone listening to my pastor, do I love it when he opens the Word and digs in deeply, or do I get more out of the little asides, jokes and illustrative anecdotes? Do my eyes glaze over when God's Word is read and preached? <BR/><BR/>The answers to those questions are very revealing. I am personally convicted about spending less time in the Bible these days. "Lack of time" is no excuse. Perhaps I need to make time.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.com