tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post2307484403472917413..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Peanut-butter PassionPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23631780108263402932013-01-14T12:15:46.922-08:002013-01-14T12:15:46.922-08:00I think the first problem with youth groups (and c...I think the first problem with youth groups (and churches as a whole for that matter) today is that their main focus is to get people in the door. They want to get them in the door and then share the Gospel. Why does sharing the Gospel always have to include having them on campus? Why can't we go out into the communities and build relationships and share Jesus with people right there in the middle of their lives. Jesus didn't require people to be in the synagogues to minister to them and teach. He met them in the middle of their lives. We're too program driven and often think that it's the cleverness of our program that will win people to Christ. I hear over and over again that 98% of evangelism in churches today happens on church campuses and not out in the community. I think that's the biggest shame. We're quick to give an alter call in the comfort zone of a cleverly crafted service and think we're evangelizing but slow to go into the middle of people's messed up lives to share Jesus.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00560185748981646049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-25055146929904928732010-01-09T09:14:02.412-08:002010-01-09T09:14:02.412-08:00Good post, I suppose that the balance to avoiding ...Good post, I suppose that the balance to avoiding extremes on either end of what is termed 'passion' would be close examination by the person and the ministry.<br />False passion and good passion can arise in the best of circumstances, so each person must ask themselves where their passion is coming from and why, for instance even a classic hymn soaked in good theology and sung acapella can produce in some a false passion.<br />As to MINISTRIES, they would do well to seek to be FAITHFUL and not to be FAMOUS, FUN, or FASHIONABLE. Sometimes we can harshly judge the tempermants of others when they differ from us, I for one don't 'like' (preference) the 'can I get an amen?', however I know some really solid teachers who say that. <br />The gimmicks of the day only reveal that many churches simply don't see any beauty in Christ (I would say the gospel, but Christ IS the gospel).Julius Mickelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02453209929174513662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-5845684253860293422010-01-09T06:39:04.267-08:002010-01-09T06:39:04.267-08:00One of the best things that we ever did for our ch...One of the best things that we ever did for our children was to NOT allow them to attend our church's youth group. The prevailing "18-forever" mentality was clear and palpable, and even when attendance was encouraged from the pulpit we just couldn't get behind it. Now our oldest is almost 20 and, although still immature in some areas, is solid in his worldview and less prone to doctrinal or cultural goofiness than a lot of his youth-group enculturated friends.<br />FWIW. I know there can be really good youth-specific ministries- but remember that the whole idea of youth-specific ministry came from the para-church movements of the 40's and 50's, and are now considered by many to be a permanant part of our ecclesiology.Tim Bushonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10361674501531239434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85169746187782020652010-01-08T12:40:06.091-08:002010-01-08T12:40:06.091-08:00I don't think Phil's objection is so much ...I don't think Phil's objection is so much the crazy games themselves but the point the guy tried to make from them and why he did them...Notice the youth pastor's quote here.<br /><br />"The idea is to get students here to meet our Savior. They are getting all this crazy stuff out there in the world all the time. We are trying to show them that God is cooler."<br /><br /><br />When I attended Grace Community Church (Sun Valley) they played some crazy games (Iron Gut anyone) on some Wed. nights and during the game time at Camps. The focus of Wed. nights however was on discipleship and evangelism and the camps and midweek meetings were always Word (45 minute sermons) and Christ-centered.Caleb Kolstadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16430229005942296570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-30382739534130786162010-01-08T07:14:40.249-08:002010-01-08T07:14:40.249-08:00"..the anger of man does not achieve the righ..."..the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God."<br /><br />Be angry and sin not.<br /><br />"And he [Jesus] entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold and those who bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons. And he [Lord Jesus] WOULD NOT ALLOW anyone to carry anything through the temple. And he was teaching them and saying to them, “Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But you have made it a den of robbers.”" <br /><br />I think the Church needs a little bit of anger; righteous anger, not self-righteous anger.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-81216324040648018192010-01-07T16:52:23.149-08:002010-01-07T16:52:23.149-08:00I couldn't agree more. One of my most difficu...I couldn't agree more. One of my most difficult churches to ever be a youth pastor at was a church where I was preceded by a guy who did the peanut butter arm pit challenge... and the drink a gallon of milk quickly challenge... and all sorts of gross out games. He devoted 20 minutes a week to a segment he called Fear Factor church style (real original eh?). 20 MINUTES! I'm just taking a stab in the dark here, insert sarcasm, but I think that 20 min could have been better spent in the service by preaching the Word and in his prep time maybe less time figuring out how to top his latest stunt and more time pleading with God for a deeper understanding of Scripture!<br /><br />Austin Duncan said it last year's Shepherd's conference. "What you attract them with, you have to keep them with." How true! So make the attraction the solid teaching of the Word of God. Teach them to burn for Christ and develop in the true disciples a passion for the supremacy of His Glory in all things! <br /><br />Sadly, many parents don't want their kids discipled... they want them entertained... and churches have become infected with the false notion that if their are lots of youth showing up, it must be a successful program... <br /><br />great article guys<br />jPastor Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12938639717599781336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-29502279001984891212010-01-07T10:23:54.281-08:002010-01-07T10:23:54.281-08:00I'm very passionate when it comes to the Churc...I'm very passionate when it comes to the Church using gimmicks for work that is of the Holy Spirit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-43078438663406938012010-01-07T09:24:03.688-08:002010-01-07T09:24:03.688-08:00I'm not typically a violent person, but I can ...I'm not typically a violent person, but I can imagine someone delivering a military-style blanket party to youth pastors who pull stunts like this. <br /><br />But then, the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26966013469351238482010-01-07T08:34:54.889-08:002010-01-07T08:34:54.889-08:00Appreciate your thoughts on this. "Passion&qu...Appreciate your thoughts on this. "Passion" has become misused, over-used, and misunderstood within the church. Reminds me of Pavlov's dog--I fear much of the Church today has become conditioned (culturally) to respond in a particular way in certain situations/events.Conniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16388126339087271102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87240965179676708902010-01-07T01:53:08.942-08:002010-01-07T01:53:08.942-08:00PJ: Many Christians glorify passion for passion...PJ: <b><i>Many Christians glorify passion for passion's sake—as if raw passion per se were something praiseworthy and deeply spiritual.</i></b><br /><br />If you're talking about Christians who know how salvation works and believe that the gospel is power unto salvation, then it may be an issue of temperament. <br /><br />Our culture is breeding these type of people. So, you have these folks who have a habitual inclination towards this kind of stuff. As we know, salvation doesn't change our temperament. Whatever temperament we had before salvation is the same temperament we have after salvation. What drastically changes (or should change) is that we are not ruled by our temperament. And it looks like many of these folks have not learned how to control their temperament or passions. We all have our own temperaments whether it's sensitiveness, irritability, nervousness, shyness, introspection, etc. All of us have to work on it to not be ruled by it. <br /><br />PJ:<b><i>Christian leaders invent gimmicks to try to win worldly people by appealing to their worldly passions.</i></b><br /><br />This group is a little bit easier to diagnosis. They don't understand how salvation works or if they do, then they don't really believe the gospel has the power unto salvation so they invent these other ways.CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01912897040503058967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44617815419838871942010-01-07T01:07:32.396-08:002010-01-07T01:07:32.396-08:00Dan: I thought it was fine because that type of th...Dan: <b><i>I thought it was fine because that type of thing won me over. As I was coming to Christ, I ate ice cream off a youth leader's stomach (wrapped in saran wrap) ten years ago. It did get my attention and God did use it to soften my hard at the time. As I continued to run in these circles, I realized it did deconstruct my prior stereotype of boring Christians slightly but not as much as my relationships with authentic Gospel loving Christians. snip snip <br /><br />To sum up: I was one of these guys and I have since repent realizing both biblically and practically in the long run didn't work. Biblical teaching was the only thing that has sustained me.</i></b><br /><br />See, Dan, I think more of your sum up comment is when your real repentance happened. I'm not denying that eating ice cream off your youth leader was quite an experience and I know you want to believe that God used that to soften your heart. But I fail to see how.<br /><br />The Lord has described quite clearly how He deals in saving people. He starts with the mind and moves on to the heart. Then what else is involved in saving faith: Conviction, repentance, godly sorrow, fear of God and desire for deliverance from sin and Hell. Those are just a few of things. Nothing which licking PB from armpits and eating ice cream from someone's stomach can accomplish. <br /><br />You see, the man who is born-again doesn't need to be revved up with licking PB or ice-cream to come to God. The natural man, perhaps has to be, but not the man who is born-again. That's why I'm not to big on altar calls. You don't need induce him. When a person is born-again and convicted by the Spirit of God he'll seek help. Because he's so miserable and frightened and it's why I believe you don't need to call for immediate decisions. Once a person is convicted by the Spirit he's going to seek God, we don't have to force him to and neither do we have to use gimmicks or shock and awe like licking PB and eating ice-cream.CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01912897040503058967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-6313782977902737422010-01-07T00:41:51.212-08:002010-01-07T00:41:51.212-08:00Rachael: But, at the same time, I wonder if we in ...Rachael: <b><i>But, at the same time, I wonder if we in the Reformed camp (not the tattooed, headbanging Reformed camp, mind you :) ) take things a little too far the other way. snip snip </i></b><br /><br />Amen Rachael. That happens when people put form or personal preferences over truth.CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01912897040503058967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-35114391257902877852010-01-06T21:41:05.430-08:002010-01-06T21:41:05.430-08:00Yep. One of many perfectly legal breading grounds ...Yep. One of many perfectly legal breading grounds for Satan to prolong and frustrate the sanctification process.philnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04393311811604119321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32778037791370508892010-01-06T19:06:24.657-08:002010-01-06T19:06:24.657-08:00I must confess: Two years ago at a High School Cam...I must confess: Two years ago at a High School Camp, I let a kid lick PB from my hairy armpit. It accomplished exactly what it was suppose to do: gross every one out (including me).<br /><br />I thought it was fine because that type of thing won me over. As I was coming to Christ, I ate ice cream off a youth leader's stomach (wrapped in saran wrap) ten years ago. It did get my attention and God did use it to soften my hard at the time. As I continued to run in these circles, I realized it did deconstruct my prior stereotype of boring Christians slightly but not as much as my relationships with authentic Gospel loving Christians.<br /><br />Today: I don't think Teens are asking that question (is it cool) as much as the 80's and 90's. Games are not problematic per se but just not useful any more. Most importantly, they keep us from actually doing Titus 2! The relationships are what everyone remembers any way.<br /><br />Many of today's pastors/parents grew up in the "youth group" age so they expect what they had while failing to actually to engage kids. While evangelism is important, these methods aren't allowing us to keep the current generation or reach out.<br /><br />To sum up: I was one of these guys and I have since repent realizing both biblically and practically in the long run didn't work. Biblical teaching was the only thing that has sustained me.sWhozep68https://www.blogger.com/profile/12842801070474345515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33926135577236153582010-01-06T17:44:41.583-08:002010-01-06T17:44:41.583-08:00We've had some of this kind of stuff in our ch...We've had some of this kind of stuff in our church as well, nothing quite so disgusting as peanut-butter pit-licking though. We did have some large holes in the walls of our fellowship hall after some out-of-control frozen turkey bowling a year or two ago which I think caused some to stop and think a bit.<br /><br />Talking with my 20-something son now, he looks back at those yoot groop days as being useless and contributing nothing to his spiritual formation. In his case actually delaying it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-92105720141321874652010-01-06T17:16:12.113-08:002010-01-06T17:16:12.113-08:00Like you said, "passion can be a good thing&q...Like you said, "passion can be a good thing" but for whom is that passion and where is it going? I believe the central issue is really Christ, or lack of whom in these messages. Quite simply, do these youth ministries bring glory to Christ? I think not and I think that goes for any practice or activity within the Church that does not completely focus on Christ. Do these things really bring glory to Christ? Will these kids one day look back and say, I was saved watching kids eat peanut butter from my youth minister's... well, you know. My question to these fickle ministers is this, where is Christ glorified?<br /><br />Soli Deo GloriaPatrick Eklektoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01349922461863495565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54477064701393686232010-01-06T16:27:43.677-08:002010-01-06T16:27:43.677-08:00Let not your heart be troubled, Aric. With the und...Let not your heart be troubled, Aric. With the understanding that we need to communicate on the world's terms we I's must feign some level of exuberance to convey our passion to all those E's out there. But it must be understood that I's are no less passionate in general than E's. The culture formed by E's simply confuse passion with exuberance. In the context of this post I would say that the kids would sense the difference at the end of it and see that the passion is really a weak desperation.Jim Pembertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446388434272680014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-6944496870407249592010-01-06T15:36:09.950-08:002010-01-06T15:36:09.950-08:00When the glory of God filled the temple, and the v...When the glory of God filled the temple, and the voices of the angels shouting Holy! Holy! Holy! shook the foundation of that place, I seriously doubt that Isaiah thought that he should smear peanut butter on his armpits to lure people in to share in this vision of God.<br /><br />I am so very sad that we have come to a place where we believe that armpit licking is a better draw than God's displayed majesty. Truly I am. Woe is me.Brad Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00197301845256854051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26147360110986674462010-01-06T15:19:56.383-08:002010-01-06T15:19:56.383-08:00“Many Christians glorify passion for passion's...<i>“Many Christians glorify passion for passion's sake—as if raw passion per se were something praiseworthy and deeply spiritual.</i>”<br /><br />Amen! At the risk of revealing my ISTJ inner self, I think that often the emphasis on passion, for passion’s sake, puts a lot of pressure on us, eh, less expressive types, which can really wound (unintentionally). I cannot speak for introverts* everywhere, but I recall many youth rallies/services where I worried because I could seem to muster up the correct amount of “passion.”<br /><br />Now, on the other hand, as Rachel said above, I can (and should) <i>“shed more tears, and beamed big smiles, sang really loudly, and even applauded now and then, in response to a reminder that God Himself has defeated sin and death and Hell and won our eternal salvation for us.</i>”<br /><br /><br /><br />*By introvert I mean that I process internally and recharge by solo reflection; not that I am unable to interact with other humans (although that probably rings hollow being typed on a blog)Arichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04559641241257829676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77497119803226665032010-01-06T15:03:31.579-08:002010-01-06T15:03:31.579-08:00Maybe the reason we can’t figure out how to presen...Maybe the reason we can’t figure out how to present our good news, (or good advice, practical tips, tomfoolery, skullduggery, or personal antidotes) is that we can’t really figure out what it is ourselves. My co-worker just told me a heartwarming story of how her son agreed that since God has provided them a home and sustenance, He is worthy to be praised. (But what if He had not?)<br />Our personal theologies, unending love of our sins, and fierce independence, mixed with good old American success motivation, have produced a mess that even its own mother may not love. <br />What even is our goal, what is the end game?<br />Hell avoidance? Prosperity (by any definition)? Personal bodyguard? Changed lives? Guilt dismissal? Rescuing the earth and cosmos from itself? Right standing before a Holy God? Transformed communities? Standing against social decay? <br />Each product on the market today has a custom marketing plan, and sadly we are becoming just another shill fighting for market share. <br />How does "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." (Romans 12:2) fit into all this? <br />How can we ever truly believe that we can teach someone about a crucified savior and repentant faith, when they have peanut butter and Armando’s armpit hairs all over their face, and it was our idea?mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10436809417566796558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-43908660942526927882010-01-06T14:44:02.967-08:002010-01-06T14:44:02.967-08:00Isn't there a whole genre of contemporary Chri...Isn't there a whole genre of contemporary Christian worship music called Passion Music? What IS that?Suzannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03319124569497129096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-4869808251850677312010-01-06T14:31:09.709-08:002010-01-06T14:31:09.709-08:00John Owen stated something like "Pour out you...John Owen stated something like "Pour out your emotions and passion into the mold of sound doctrine."<br />No doubt Owen would agree that sound doctrine is what is lacking in much of the American Church today.<br />Beware of church people wildly emoting when you discern they have a dearth of good teaching.Beyond Zaphonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266286651193081315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88254043938273563322010-01-06T13:25:11.525-08:002010-01-06T13:25:11.525-08:00NoLongerBlind: One question:
Chunky or c...<b>NoLongerBlind</b>: <i>One question:<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Chunky or creamy?</i><br /><br />LOL! Chunky of course. No youth pastor in his right mind would smooth down the peanut-butter too much. That would violate the verse that talks about walking in craftiness and smoothing down the peanut-butter.olan stricklandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05345193051857763038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-30423741514020893332010-01-06T13:21:42.914-08:002010-01-06T13:21:42.914-08:00Love the rotten fruit :P
I just noticed you and D...Love the rotten fruit :P<br /><br />I just noticed you and Dan had equal number of comments so thought I'd break the tie.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Actually, I do think it's pretty appalling that so many youth oriented church groups seem to be trying to reel in kids by primarily feeding the desire to stroke the desires of our flesh.<br /><br />That kind of seems counterproductive, maybe, sort of...but that's just <i>my</i> opinion, of course.<br /><br />HCraig and Heatherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11962442989291080899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3830139433472369962010-01-06T13:18:32.285-08:002010-01-06T13:18:32.285-08:00Even adults do this to some degree. There is resis...Even adults do this to some degree. There is resistence even in our adult study groups to get into the meat of the word. They would rather offer financial advice and "mens fraternity" classes then dig into the deep treasures of the word. <br /><br />Trying to change some of that, well see what happens. <br /><br />Its the same root problem though, focus and priority, especially at a worship service.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com