tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post2545162969513012518..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Leaky canoneers and their good-hearted enablers: making excuses for GodPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21304217201011600262012-10-17T07:25:40.127-07:002012-10-17T07:25:40.127-07:00All right, this thread has become a spinning distr...All right, this thread has become a spinning distraction. Time to sum up:<br /><br />1. Read the post. It's been objected-to, mind-read, demonized, and in no way refuted.<br /><br />2. There are two kinds of people in the world: those who admit that the four dodges I cite are universal and common, and the unserious or ignorant.<br /><br />3. Continuationism is nineteen hundred years too late to be bringing evidence now. <a href="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2011/08/tersely-put-continuationism-self.html" rel="nofollow">If it were true, we would not be having this discussion</a>. This is simply not deniable.<br /><br />4. <a href="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2012/08/phillips-axioms.html" rel="nofollow">Axioms 2,3, 4 and 23</a> are as relevant as ever.<br /><br />5. Continuationism is a bankrupt and harmful position that survives only on a combination of sheer Biblical ignorance and the goodhearted enabling of those who should know better.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54272401677598042532012-10-17T07:17:53.749-07:002012-10-17T07:17:53.749-07:00Phil you keep coming back to the idea that DJP and...Phil you keep coming back to the idea that DJP and others deny that God heals today, something no one is saying from what I read. He's talking, I think, about the gift of healing, which for those who had it, was unfailing. Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-14319236034956918192012-10-17T07:10:18.089-07:002012-10-17T07:10:18.089-07:00Linda, you badly misunderstand the purpose of this...Linda, you badly misunderstand <a href="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2012/08/pyro-and-me-philosophy-of-strategery.html" rel="nofollow">the purpose of this blog</a>.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-52312424911432016762012-10-17T07:03:56.421-07:002012-10-17T07:03:56.421-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09418337100329537312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3033513623877833522012-10-17T06:48:17.879-07:002012-10-17T06:48:17.879-07:00Phil, you are not paying attention. You have to br...Phil, you are not paying attention. You have to bring 1900 years of stories which so far have evaded everyone's attention but yours.<br /><br />You've wasted enough of these good folks' time. Change your tune, go back to the start and begin correcting (start with your first comment), or find something else to do.<br /><br />Not a suggestion.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-92233180039677880122012-10-17T06:46:44.426-07:002012-10-17T06:46:44.426-07:00Linda, read my earlier response, and heed it.Linda, read my earlier response, and heed it.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63730779956688286882012-10-17T06:45:24.640-07:002012-10-17T06:45:24.640-07:00@Phil Morgan:
So, if I'm understanding you co...@Phil Morgan:<br /><br />So, if I'm understanding you correctly, your argument is:<br /><br />I've personally seen/experienced a miraculous healing, therefore the apostolic revelatory and attesting gifts have continued past the first century.<br /><br />Is that correct?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41595786942564472442012-10-17T06:44:02.191-07:002012-10-17T06:44:02.191-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09418337100329537312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73065586159801326272012-10-17T06:40:17.562-07:002012-10-17T06:40:17.562-07:00LanternBright,
The miraculous works of God that I ...LanternBright,<br />The miraculous works of God that I have seen, and others with me, IS undeniable to many. Can I remind you that there WERE people around Jesus who wanted to explain / dismiss the miraculous as counterfeit or worse. Do you not believe that those things DID occur?<br />And as for objection #4. What if it's true? Your assumption is that it's laughable ... I say you're going a fair way to proving it.Phil Morganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12977472049659803602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9588718817760287182012-10-17T06:33:07.189-07:002012-10-17T06:33:07.189-07:00Phil,
The difference is that when miraculous gift...Phil,<br /><br />The difference is that when miraculous gifts of the kind you're asserting occur in the New Testament, they're undeniable. Even hostile eyewitnesses can't argue that the miracle in question actually happened.<br /><br />You're arguing for things that aren't falsifiable, and then attempting to say that those are on equal footing with the miracles recorded in Scripture. But, see, the fact that what you're talking about isn't falsifiable NECESSARILY means it isn't on equal footing with Scripture.<br /><br />And, just as Dan predicted, you fall PERFECTLY into his foreseen objection #4. You keep telling everyone on this board that the reason they're not seeing the miracles is because we've blinded ourselves to them.<br /><br />So thanks for proving Dan's point.LanternBrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14727003028902907286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34879368855923188612012-10-17T06:29:43.893-07:002012-10-17T06:29:43.893-07:00"homosexuals"? Where'd that come fro..."homosexuals"? Where'd that come from Dan? "Oh, these terrifying and dangerous continuationists ..."<br /><br />I am not hating, mocking, scoffing or rejecting. Again, allegations like that can just be turned around and said in the reverse direction.<br /><br />I just offered to LanternBright, I'm willing to point ... are you willing to see?Phil Morganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12977472049659803602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73582902504530866802012-10-17T06:25:05.962-07:002012-10-17T06:25:05.962-07:00"Thorny" = "unanswerable." It ..."Thorny" = "unanswerable." It is absolutely fatal to their position. All they can do is say "Is not." But of course, it is. If it is your position that NT gifts continue, then they must continue. That will NECESSARILY mean nineteen hundred years of unbelievers scrambling to explain what they cannot explain.<br /><br />Instead we see the opposite.<br /><br />Leaving us with... see the post.<br /><br />Without exception - and Phil is classic - they respond just as homosexuals do to the slippery slope argument. They hate it, mock it, scoff at it, reject it... because they cannot answer it. It is fatal and unanswerable.<br /><br />As I've linked more than once, were their position correct, the issue would not be being continued by debate, but by pointing.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85756954347381073812012-10-17T06:20:46.193-07:002012-10-17T06:20:46.193-07:00The really thorny thing for the continuationists t...The really thorny thing for the continuationists to deal with is why in the New Testament, the attempts at healing on command never failed. And now, they often do. Not enough faith? If that's the problem, then that's pretty damning of the failing faith healer. One may read the Bible and conclude that nothing has changed with regard to healing or other miracles, but the facts demonstrate otherwise.Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13967188505087010972012-10-17T06:19:39.964-07:002012-10-17T06:19:39.964-07:00LanternBright, I don't have any argument with ...LanternBright, I don't have any argument with what you just wrote. It makes me wonder if you're reading what I'm saying. I'm telling you (as per my little rewrite of Dan's script) that when examples ARE offered the response is 100% predictable ... "Oh, I wasn't there, that's heresay, it's not verifiable, it's been called into question, I don't believe it, those tongues aren't real, I heard a prophecy once and it wasn't genuine ... YADA YADA YADA."<br /><br />Pointless.<br /><br />So the very argument "you don't have any burgers to offer" (nice one Dan) is non-sensical when the man in McDonalds has blindfolded himself because he has a presupposition that McDonald's is a fraud and don't really sell hamburgers.<br /><br />Would you like me to give you just ONE testimony from my own life of healing combined with charismata? I'll take the time to write it, but I'm saying the outcome is predictable. (Yes, well, we can't verify that.)Phil Morganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12977472049659803602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-42922958893184214572012-10-17T06:14:20.246-07:002012-10-17T06:14:20.246-07:00Right; and you can say that the moon is red, but s...Right; and you can say that the moon is red, but saying it changes nothing.<br /><br />You have made no point that was not anticipated or has not been answered. That you repeat them reveals things about you, but doesn't change the record.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-5488267666928435322012-10-17T06:06:14.888-07:002012-10-17T06:06:14.888-07:00Dan,
Respectfully, as I said to you previously &q...Dan,<br /><br />Respectfully, as I said to you previously "it's your blog". Neither you nor anyone else has to do or answer anything. But when you throw out "You've been wildly inconsistent, and actually haven't made much sense at all", I think you can be called on that and you should demonstrate how. That's not me setting you homework, that's you being responsible for your words.<br /><br />For the record, you have repeatedly stated that I am not engaging with the post, but my very first comment was pointing out that:<br />(1) your post employs a straw man argument, and<br />(2) it was (by the way) condescending, and <br />(3) throwing out comments about a "blind spot" in the way you did can always, surely, just be turned around on you.<br /><br />LampLighter engaged with me and my subsequent posts were to demonstrate how those criticisms of your post were accurate (particularly about how it IS a straw man argument).<br /><br />In the process of that exchange with LampLighter I raised a 4th point about your post, that I think there's a faulty presupposition behind the shortlist of 4 things you present.<br /><br />So, how have I not engaged with the post? Unless what you mean is that I'm not engaging with it by saying things you'd like me to say? (Hence my perhaps too snarky comment about you having the choir to preach to. Which you didn't come back at me on, but which I apologize for.)<br /><br />I think you've made this a public forum by opening up comments. So if you write a post that baits continuationists, surely it's fair game for me to challenge the basis of the post?<br /><br />Anyhoo, this is NOT me setting you homework, Dan; you don't owe me a reply. I'm still open to be shown an inconsistency. And I'm not cranky or offended.<br /><br />Blessings.Phil Morganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12977472049659803602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-52886225257375811062012-10-17T06:04:06.821-07:002012-10-17T06:04:06.821-07:00If you go to a MacDonald's and they don't ...<i><b>If you go to a MacDonald's and they don't have any burgers to offer, that is by definition an issue.</b></i><br /><br />I think that's the most brutally simple, obvious, plain point I've ever seen in this discussion. Well-played, Dan.LanternBrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14727003028902907286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41238714617995531622012-10-17T05:56:56.558-07:002012-10-17T05:56:56.558-07:00Good luck, LB, and Godspeed. It's become one o...Good luck, LB, and Godspeed. It's become one of the leaky canoneer's favorite dodge to accuse Biblical Christians of their besetting sin of exalting experience.<br /><br />Of course, the death knell to that is that continuationism is by definition a position that guarantees an experience: the experience of all the gifts continuing through all the church age just as in the apostolic age.<br /><br />If you go to a MacDonald's and they don't have any burgers to offer, that is by definition an issue.<br /><br />As here.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22941111434955352672012-10-17T05:47:42.160-07:002012-10-17T05:47:42.160-07:00Phil,
You're really going to argue that we ca...Phil,<br /><br />You're really going to argue that we can't verify Scriptural phenomena (in this case, the ongoing existence of the charismata and the continued frequency and quality of miracles demonstrated in the apostolic age) by simply looking at objective reality? Really?<br /><br />One wonders why Paul didn't take that tack in 1 Cor. 15: "Of course Christ was crucified, and of course he was risen from the dead. Just read Scripture!"<br /><br />But see, instead, he told the Corinthians to NOT ONLY read Scripture, but he ALSO pointed to living witnesses of the Resurrection, inviting the Corinthians to seek them out as well.<br /><br />That's also the entire point of the early apostolic witness to the empty tomb--it pointed to what could be objectively seen and known apart from Scripture, and then demonstrated how that could be properly understood BY reading Scripture.<br /><br />Here's what you seem to be missing about your claim that the charismata and other miraculous phenomena continue completely undifferentiated in the present age: those things were examples of how God was breaking into actual human history to accomplish His purposes. So it follows invariably that if those things are still going on, then God is still breaking into human history IN THE SAME WAY to accomplish His purposes.<br /><br />So if that's true, why are you unwilling to appeal to objective observable fact when the apostles themselves had no problem doing so?LanternBrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14727003028902907286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8671021861952576192012-10-17T05:15:11.035-07:002012-10-17T05:15:11.035-07:00Linda, if others want to come and discuss here, fi...Linda, if others want to come and discuss here, fine. This isn't a link dump.<br /><br />If you don't want to engage, don't comment.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-18977017890030483282012-10-17T05:14:49.637-07:002012-10-17T05:14:49.637-07:00Phil, you. You have not said one thing that wasn&#...Phil, you. You have not said one thing that wasn't either anticipated in the post or answered by commenters. Your refusal to deal doesn't constitute an obligation to commenters or to me for a life of endless homework assignments to deal with your refusal to deal.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-56463249782548004522012-10-17T02:07:27.400-07:002012-10-17T02:07:27.400-07:00Phil,
To illustrate Dan's point, asking for s...Phil,<br /><br />To illustrate Dan's point, asking for scriptural proof that the biblical gifts have not ceased is like asking for scriptural proof that Christ's second coming would be delayed for more than two millennia. He ain't here, and they ain't here.<br /><br />DavidDavidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11280438047874748436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-68976514433479357752012-10-16T20:04:07.574-07:002012-10-16T20:04:07.574-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09418337100329537312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-37425949939903717722012-10-16T15:02:22.969-07:002012-10-16T15:02:22.969-07:00Now who's backing off and dodging?
It's y...Now who's backing off and dodging?<br /><br />It's your blog, Dan. I enjoy much of what you write. And clearly you have the choir to preach to. But go back and read my posts, and I will welcome you pointing out the inconsistency.<br /><br />PhilPhil Morganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12977472049659803602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89699459347615147742012-10-16T14:50:08.133-07:002012-10-16T14:50:08.133-07:00Deal with the post, Phil. Deal seriously with the ...Deal with the post, Phil. Deal seriously with the attempts to straighten you out already, Phil.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.com