tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post2878758556974794687..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: How to Feed the ChildrenPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66394374480541424882007-10-20T15:12:00.000-07:002007-10-20T15:12:00.000-07:00Frank,I just found this quote from Calvin and thou...Frank,<BR/><BR/>I just found this quote from Calvin and thought it helped shed some light on the aforementioned controversy.<BR/><BR/>"But if the holy prophets had scruples against separating themselves from the church because of many great misdeeds, not of one man or another but of almost all the people, we claim too much for ourselves if we dare withdraw at once from the communion of the church just because the morals of all do not meet our standard, or even square with the profession of Christian faith." <BR/><BR/>Sounds like you may have been right after all. But, I think this issue needs more exploring777lawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17174351112796952341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9377317573666001682007-10-18T22:11:00.000-07:002007-10-18T22:11:00.000-07:00Being a PIT (Pastor-In-Training), I *love* this po...Being a PIT (Pastor-In-Training), I *love* this post. <BR/><BR/>I don't post here hardly at all, but Cent, you really nailed it.<BR/><BR/>I feel convicted that I don't spend more time doing family devotions.<BR/><BR/>I will admit though, that the Sunday School that my 6 year old daughter attends do a great job. She had to memorize a section and recite it that explained Elohim, and she also came up to me the other day and said: "Dad, did you know that noone gets to Heaven unless their name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life?"<BR/><BR/>How sobering to hear that from a 6 year old.Rob Willmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00460864362819208034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-81321769356273665942007-10-17T11:57:00.000-07:002007-10-17T11:57:00.000-07:00More often than not leaving a church "for the sake...More often than not leaving a church "for the sake of the children" has little to do with the teaching , more like child bored/ not interested/ wanting worldly worship / parent honouring child rather than vice versa. I'm on a bit of a rant , but I've known it happen too often , a few years on the child even those who have professed Christ as Saviour are no longer worshipping God with his people on the Lord's day.Sad but true.Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12151639629497528017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-38111086727647428222007-10-16T20:38:00.000-07:002007-10-16T20:38:00.000-07:00So, I am a bit skeptical of the way Mt. 18 can be ...<EM>So, I am a bit skeptical of the way Mt. 18 can be used at times.</EM><BR/><BR/>Here is how it was confronted in the situation I know best.<BR/><BR/>This is the same situation I discussed in previous threads.<BR/><BR/>Situation: Mason serving on the board, and as an elder, serving communion.<BR/><BR/>Problem: Masonry is a form of idolatry.<BR/><BR/>Solution:<BR/><BR/>1. Prayer and discussion with other believers as to what to do.<BR/><BR/>2. Confront the Mason privately, who responds. "I don't want to talk about it."<BR/><BR/>3. Confront the Pastor of the church, giving him over 100 pages of documentation on Masons as well as several videos (mostly Ankerburg IIRC) about the Masonic cult.<BR/><BR/>4. Ask the pastor to confront the issue. <BR/><BR/>5. Pastor refuses to confront the issue. Thus, HE halted the Matt 18 process by refusing to deal with it, thus ending the attempt at reconciliation.<BR/><BR/>6. After much prayer and discussion, leave the church.<BR/><BR/>Total time between inital prayer and leaving...about 2 months, IIRC. Might be more.<BR/><BR/>That is a biblical example of how to confront apostasy, heresy, or unrepentant sin in a church.<BR/><BR/>And it ain't easy. Like I said earlier, this wans't me, but someone very close to me who this happened to, and I was the recipient of many questions and scripture searching.VcdeChagnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09061295600050633057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80790103143191598312007-10-16T05:58:00.000-07:002007-10-16T05:58:00.000-07:00strategem, I think you're right to take any advice...strategem, I think you're right to take any advice with a grain of salt and decide whether it makes sense for your own situation.<BR/><BR/>In the end you're the one accountable to God for your decisions, not just the people who gave you advice. Because you made the choice whether to take the advice or not.<BR/><BR/>(People who give bad advice will be accountable too but it doesn't mean that those who take it are exempt from accountability)Helenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03605999794188527973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-29187956181967105772007-10-16T05:26:00.000-07:002007-10-16T05:26:00.000-07:00The situation you are talking about would be a cau...<I>The situation you are talking about would be a cause to leave (as far as I see it, I'm sure Centurion will correct me if he reads this and I'm wrong) if you've duly exercised your biblical obligation to confront the sinful, heretical or apostate behavior in a way designed to reconcile you with your brother or brothers.</I><BR/><BR/>I suspect you may well be right. Part of the problem is that Cent seems to be very hard to nail down on exactly what he is saying, as to when it is OK to leave. This results in a lot of people who have left for legitimate reasons, to question their decisions, which is not bad in itself unless it results in waffling in cases where one should just face the reality of the situation and leave to protect your family from bad teaching, or even to protect yourself from bad teaching. Then he throws in the ringer of a (paraphrased) "it's not an actual church if it doesn't have a doctrine statement", further muddying the waters beyond any real usefulness. <BR/><BR/>I, and a lot of others, see our responsibility to our family as being more important than our responsibility to an apostate church organization. Is that straightforward enough? I wouldn't leave my kids to be taught in a Hindu temple, so why would I leave them to be taught in an Emergent church?<BR/><BR/>When we did leave this church I'm talking about, we were admonished that Matthew 18 tells us we had to "reconcile" with the leadership before leaving. When I asked how I would do that while still believing that they were unwise leaders and false teachers, there was no real answer given. We were just supposed to do a group hug and pretend that nothing was wrong. So, I am a bit skeptical of the way Mt. 18 can be used at times.Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82625715902603550262007-10-15T20:29:00.000-07:002007-10-15T20:29:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.VcdeChagnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09061295600050633057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-71564086267814750402007-10-15T20:26:00.000-07:002007-10-15T20:26:00.000-07:00Plus, every time you walk into your church buildin...<EM>Plus, every time you walk into your church building, you are going to wonder what new offensive practice or teaching you (or your kids) are going to be assaulted with, this time. Will it be icon veneration, or hyper-preterism? Will you come into your 9 year old's classroom and find out they've been praying, chanting, and burning incense in the corners?</EM><BR/><BR/>I don't think this is what Centurion is saying.<BR/><BR/>See, this is why I forced the issue I brought up to a point where he explained more thoroughly exactly what he meant. <BR/><BR/>I'm not going to dig it up, but he used Luther as an example, saying that the church effectively separated <B>itself</B> when it refused to comply with Biblical standards. He also cautioned each person who goes this route not to act hastily and to act biblically (Matt 18) in exercising this option.<BR/><BR/>The situation you are talking about would be a cause to leave (as far as I see it, I'm sure Centurion will correct me if he reads this and I'm wrong) if you've duly exercised your biblical <B>obligation</B> to confront the sinful, heretical or apostate behavior in a way designed to reconcile you with your brother or brothers.<BR/><BR/>Look at the tags for this post and find the article (and the one on his personal blog) that he wrote in ...March?...of this year. I think he explains himself better in those articles, and they should be a pre-requisite for understanding where he's coming from now.VcdeChagnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09061295600050633057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-60031270124472878752007-10-15T15:08:00.000-07:002007-10-15T15:08:00.000-07:00Stratagem:I agree with your sentiment and that of ...Stratagem:<BR/><BR/>I agree with your sentiment and that of One Busy Mom that after seeing so many posts in which Cent has made a biblical case for staying at your church, it would be good to see a biblical case for when (if ever) it's time to leave, if no one actually forces you out.<BR/><BR/>(Sorry, Cent.)Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26605320370363113422007-10-15T14:54:00.000-07:002007-10-15T14:54:00.000-07:00gummby,I have been laughing all day at your little...gummby,<BR/><BR/>I have been laughing all day at your little joke. Thanks for the lift.777lawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17174351112796952341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-52694099814597963052007-10-15T13:53:00.000-07:002007-10-15T13:53:00.000-07:00Sewing: Yes I agree with that, but in Emergent-mig...Sewing: Yes I agree with that, but in Emergent-migrational churches where tolerance is king, you simply aren't going to be confronted directly on having "wrong" (i.e., right) beliefs, or objecting to the teachings. That would violate the leaders' self-perceptions of open-mindedness. You'll simply be marginalized and ignored. <BR/><BR/>Plus, every time you walk into your church building, you are going to wonder what new offensive practice or teaching you (or your kids) are going to be assaulted with, this time. Will it be icon veneration, or hyper-preterism? Will you come into your 9 year old's classroom and find out they've been praying, chanting, and burning incense in the corners? <BR/><BR/>All of the above (and much, much more) happened to us, and objections would simply be met with (amazingly) "we're not doing any of that," or with "you're just looking at the Bible through an Evangelical lens" or other such nonsense. However, we would probably never have been thrown out. But at some point, a believer need fellowship with other believers, and you just can't worship or be refreshed in an environment where your conscience is constantly being violated. I seriously doubt too many of the bloggers have really had to live through that.Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-266378291412250322007-10-15T10:50:00.000-07:002007-10-15T10:50:00.000-07:00I can't speak for Cent, although I recall his answ...I can't speak for Cent, although I recall his answer in the past has been something along the lines of this:<BR/><BR/>Stay and contend for the Word of God, right up to the point that through Scripturally mandated disciplinary procedures, the church expels you. (Begging the question, what if the disciplinary procedures are not Scripturally mandated, or what if there's no discipline?)<BR/><BR/>And he seems to be well aware of the wasteland that is modern North American Evangelicalism. It was a post he wrote a few months ago that made me even aware that there's a problem!Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66565250122096887112007-10-15T08:57:00.000-07:002007-10-15T08:57:00.000-07:00But.....I think some of the people here are dealin...<I>But.....I think some of the people here are dealing with something different. They have 2 Peter chap 2 type teachers that have crept into their churches (thru the youth wing) and for whatever reason the leadership has refused to take action. Or perhaps even worse, the false teachings have already spread to the leadership.</I><BR/><BR/>Exactly! I don't think Cent can relate to what some of us have experienced. Try as he might, he doesn't really understand how little influence a non-blogger, non-elder, non-deacon has in an apostate church. Nor does he understand how many apostate churches there really are, and how apostate many of them have become after having been formerly sound. Or at least, he doesn't <I>seem</I> to understand. <BR/><BR/>I think Cent mentioned that he once encountered a pastor in his church who was off-base on something or other, and it took two years for the leaders to correct him. There were leaders there who were not themselves in significant error, and could correct this person, so the example is hardly in the same league as what a lot of people have recently encountered as their churches catch the Emergent Flu.<BR/><BR/>I'm not criticizing him, really, but I do believe he keeps going back to ridiculous examples he's seen of people objecting to minor issues and leaving churches. We are a product of our experiences in a lot of ways, so I understand why he's unable to relate. But I do think he's unable to relate.<BR/><BR/>I know I'm going to catch heck for writing this, so I should add that I respect Cent a lot, too, but he can't be expected to know, or have experienced, everything. (and please don't write something about how scripture supercedes experience; I already know that!!!) I just happen to believe that apostate churches fall into a different slice of the Bible than well-led churches that occasionally develop doctrinal issues or disputes.Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-76501232978151466572007-10-15T07:38:00.000-07:002007-10-15T07:38:00.000-07:00Youth sports is keeping me and my family out of ch...Youth sports is keeping me and my family out of church. There I said it. Well, Ok since I went there let me rephrase that. I am keeping myself and my family from going to church.philnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04393311811604119321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77501050303962576002007-10-14T22:30:00.000-07:002007-10-14T22:30:00.000-07:00Cent,Great post, and so is your whole series on th...Cent,<BR/><BR/>Great post, and so is your whole series on the subject. But I think you're writing from a bit of a bias. You (and Dan and Phil) are Godly teachers, at Godly churches - and if what we see here is a fair sample for all 3 of you- it's unlikely any of you, or your churches stray much from the Word of God. I'm guessing that from your perspective the people who are leaving churches are: the folks who come in, sit in the back, never get involved, never join, see themselves as the latest and greatest spiritual experts, complain incessantly, stir up strife, stay 3 months to 3 years, and finally leave because the donuts in the fellowship hall are powdered sugar instead of cinnamon.<BR/>Those folks need a super- heavy helping of what you just wrote!<BR/><BR/>But.....I think some of the people here are dealing with something different. They have 2 Peter chap 2 type teachers that have crept into their churches (thru the youth wing) and for whatever reason the leadership has refused to take action. Or perhaps even worse, the false teachings have already spread to the leadership.<BR/><BR/>At some point they are going wonder whether or not they are under the commands of 2John1:7-11.<BR/>You've already discussed how staying fleshes out, and clarified that you can't really "leave" if you were never spiritually "there" to begin with, now maybe you can answer the "When do we Biblically HAVE to leave?" question. You know, that kind of really tough - "how much error is too much" question, and the equally sticky "what kind of errors are really serious" question!one busy momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18087795055010641099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69443857383792695682007-10-14T20:25:00.000-07:002007-10-14T20:25:00.000-07:00So when Bob the Tomato tells Larry the Cucumber "i...So when Bob the Tomato tells Larry the Cucumber "it's for the kids" so that he'll play the theme song on the tuba, he's just manipulating him? <BR/><BR/>Why, Bob, <B>why</B>?Matt Gummhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14698469400042045105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63856920739915930792007-10-14T19:37:00.000-07:002007-10-14T19:37:00.000-07:00Thanks, Frank. I need to pray more about this.I t...Thanks, Frank. I need to pray more about this.<BR/><BR/>I think your title could be expanded to "How to Feed the Family" or even to self. It's tough when you feel like your are sucking wind spiritually because of not being fed within the local body. I know, it's not that cut and dry and it's not about me. It's still tough!<BR/><BR/>MarkMarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01410144337505012175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-65146343317071101652007-10-14T18:11:00.000-07:002007-10-14T18:11:00.000-07:00postmortem, thanks for your response. I agree with...postmortem, thanks for your response. I agree with what you're saying about learning from parents rather than a peer - but I don't think the 10 year olds my kids socialized with at school when they were that age talked about about pornography. I could be wrong...Helenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03605999794188527973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86814017166988684212007-10-14T17:44:00.000-07:002007-10-14T17:44:00.000-07:00Helen,Thank goodness they were willing to talk abo...<B>Helen</B>,<BR/><BR/>Thank goodness they were willing to talk about pornography! I'd say to my kid "Pornography is bad pictures people look at in a bad way" if he ever asked me about it. I think if your child <I>doesn't</I> know about it at 8, they're gonna know at 10 in this day and age. Better they learn about it <B>at church and from parents</B> than from a kid at school...<BR/><BR/>Honestly, sin isn't alleviated by being ignored. Explaining it in simple terms to children in no way takes away their innocence; it protects it. Kudos to your church for dealing with it openly, rather than sweeping it under the rug like so many do.<BR/><BR/>My father is also a very "ethical" atheist, by the way. For your children's sake, I'm glad your husband is too. An abusive father is a horrible thing to experience growing up.<BR/><BR/><B>However</B>, ethical atheism is just as godless as unethical atheism. If anything, it may be even more dangerous because it conforms to the pattern of godliness without giving credit to the Source of all moral truth. See the story of the rich young ruler who has done all the commandments since he was young and yet will not obey and follow Jesus (Luke 18:18-23).the postmortemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06374570360503910669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-29080959544963620542007-10-14T03:31:00.000-07:002007-10-14T03:31:00.000-07:00I understand dogpreacher's comment - the things I ...I understand dogpreacher's comment - the things I heard about the church youth groups made me relieved my children never wanted to go to them. They did go to AWANA for a number of years but seem to have survived that experience. <BR/><BR/>To be fair, parents who cared were doing their best to help. Not everything was bad about my kids church experiences.<BR/><BR/>This annoyed me: my son learned the word 'pornography' from the church bulletin when he was eight. He read it and asked me what it meant. I can let it go but at the time it was frustrating, because I had no idea how to explain a word like that to him at that age. <BR/><BR/>When my children didn't like Sunday school they sat in the service with me but I felt the sermon was too adult-oriented; like the bulletin I never knew when something I didn't consider age-appropriate might be talked about.<BR/><BR/>I do regard my children's character growth as my responsibility. The churches I went to never seemed to focus enough on that so I'm not sorry my kids left church when I did. (And yes I was involved when I went; I was a member and I donated a significant amount of my time to serving the church. And I got my children to serve too on some occasions). <BR/><BR/>I'd like my children to grow up caring about others and not being overly materialistic. Their current roles in a string ensemble require them to lead others and care about others - at ages 12 and 14 they lead their sections - I think their violin teacher cares more about their character growth than leaders at my church did, although leaders at my church did care about whether my kids were 'Christians' according to their definition of that word. One of them appealed to me to take my children to some church even if I wasn't going. But when I left church I made it very clear I would take them if they wanted to go and they said no thanks.<BR/><BR/>My husband is a very ethical atheist and involved father and I think he is a very good role model for my kids in terms of character and ethics.Helenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03605999794188527973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-49984688749413229852007-10-13T21:25:00.000-07:002007-10-13T21:25:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.a.return.to.christianityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14849533128158681830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78153141877998157142007-10-13T20:36:00.000-07:002007-10-13T20:36:00.000-07:00Because it is late Saturday night and I don't have...Because it is late Saturday night and I don't have anything else to do, and because I rather enjoy doing this I shall post another comment.<BR/><BR/>While it may seem to conflict with my previous comment, I do have to make the observation that several churches were mentioned in the New Testament that did not exactly have their act together - to say the least - and it appears that there were faithful beilevers in them. This, however, raises the question of whether the faithful stayed with the church, and if they did, why? Was the church of Corinth, for example, the only church in town, or did they stay because scripture admonished them to do so? <BR/><BR/>I guess I do not have a very good handle on why I should stay in a church that is practicing blatant error, verses staying in one that has tangential "issues," but is remaining faithful to sound doctrine.777lawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17174351112796952341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85878348287086362042007-10-13T19:44:00.000-07:002007-10-13T19:44:00.000-07:00I become highly suspicious when I hear the term "f...I become highly suspicious when I hear the term "for the sake of the 'children'" being used. Someone is generally up to something other than the sake of the children when they say this when any other time you hear them talk about children they use the term "kids."<BR/><BR/>By the same token, I have come to very much dislike the wholesale use of the word "kids." It seems to me to have a derogatory connotation. I am not attempting to castigate anyone else for using the term, I just think that it might be worthwhile to consider whether or not the use of the term tends to dilute awarness, and cheapen public respect for the innocence that children are supposed to possess. <BR/><BR/>In a culture where our children are innundated with filth, perversion, and crudeness, I think we need to be careful about the language we use to refer to them, lest we appear to have the same low regard for them as does the great majority of society. Jesus didn't say, "suffer the kids to come unto me."777lawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17174351112796952341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-90031849305902151832007-10-13T19:06:00.000-07:002007-10-13T19:06:00.000-07:00It seems to me that the gentleman who was the topi...It seems to me that the gentleman who was the topic of discussion a few days ago which ultimately gave rise to the topic at hand was in a very bad church situation. If he was removed from a teaching position because he would not "drink the kool-aid, then something had changed, either in his life (good) or in the life of his church (bad)that brought about the crisis. Either way, it appears to me, it was time to go. And I have to believe his first concern was for his children.<BR/><BR/>If he joined for his children and had experience spiritual growth that prohibited further fellowshipping there or whether things had gone down hill at the church because of increasingly bad doctrine and/or leadership, it is my opinion that he would be exercising sound spiritual discretion by leaving.777lawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17174351112796952341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21359478340341532662007-10-13T17:01:00.000-07:002007-10-13T17:01:00.000-07:00And just to add to my post...We are really trying ...And just to add to my post...<BR/><BR/>We are really trying figure out how to approach this with an attitude of "coming alongside". <BR/><BR/>These posts have been really convicting and have caused us to begin to pray for some sort of reconcilliation so that we can somehow help bring those with the unsound ideas and methodologies back to a reliance on the scriptures and the Holy Spirit. For us that will mean a whole lot of prayer, humility and uncomfortable conversations with those who have really hurt us (removed us from teaching for not drinking the kool-aid :) - and who look at us as obstacles to their postmodern paradigm, which in their minds, is the only way to "save" these kids. I know they really mean well. And at the same time we must recognize our non-humble attitudes in the situation. As we are in a "mega-church" we have an uphill climb and it will have to be an act of God to accomplish this - literally.Paulahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10331088741154334957noreply@blogger.com