tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post2928649611637118684..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Dealing Biblically with apostasyPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger100125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46306422070497836822007-05-20T17:10:00.000-07:002007-05-20T17:10:00.000-07:00jamesf, "Catholics have faults, some of them major...jamesf, "Catholics have faults, some of them major in their theology, but so do you."<BR/><BR/>The major fault in theology that Catholics have is a Gospel of works + faith.<BR/>So if I would declare the same fault as the Catholic Church, then let me, and whoever else, even an angel, be accursed.<BR/><BR/>Galatians 1:8-9donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87277187816013881562007-05-20T14:53:00.000-07:002007-05-20T14:53:00.000-07:00The last time I checked, catholics believea) Jesus...The last time I checked, catholics believe<BR/><BR/>a) Jesus is God<BR/>b) Jesus died on the cross <BR/>c)Jesus was resurrected<BR/>d) those who confess Jesus as Lord, who follow him and persist in their faith will be saved<BR/>e)There is only one God who exists eternally in three persons.<BR/><BR/>Catholics have faults, some of them major in their theology, but so do you. Their are many things they get right that you do not. You need to chill.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04689677190107336220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-6191394581245199772007-05-20T14:45:00.000-07:002007-05-20T14:45:00.000-07:00DJP -I apologize for my ignorance and oversight on...DJP -<BR/><BR/>I apologize for my ignorance and oversight on these things. Seems I was reading a post that connected the Catholic Church to Mormonism, obviously not yours that, judging from your recent comments, must so intelligently and throughly engage the Catholic sources themselves so that we don't have to just assume the Catholic Church is what you would like us to believe it is, but we see first hand. So, if you would be so kind, remind me where I can find the Catholic Documents you reference in your post? Where do you engage them so that it's evident you're not setting up a straw-man? They seem to have eluded me. And where again were those comments toward the Joint Declaration to help us understand how everyone that has something to do with that Declaration is wrong, but Pyro is right? Maybe I'm just reading the wrong post. And if you would, show me also where there's reference to the many ECT statements that have come out - of course none of which MacArthur has had anything to do with (surprise, surprise - that would mean co-operating on a real level with non dispensational, pre-millennial folk). If you would do these things for me, maybe then - and just maybe - I will actually believe you know an inkling of what you are talking about.jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00934329003900999064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-14545096311594011672007-05-20T07:42:00.000-07:002007-05-20T07:42:00.000-07:00Jake, perhaps it would be a kindness to you if I d...<B>Jake</B>, perhaps it would be a kindness to you if I did delete your comment.<BR/><BR/>Anyone who — unlike you, apparently — actually did thoughtfully read the post you're supposed to be commenting on <I>and</I> the 90+ comments preceding it, would realize two things.<BR/><BR/>Your objections either:<BR/><BR/>1. Were already anticipated and/or answered in the post and comments; or<BR/><BR/>2. Are based on nothing found in the post or comments themselves.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55367221330979808162007-05-19T19:19:00.000-07:002007-05-19T19:19:00.000-07:00Excellent, honest and true.Thanks for this hard-hi...Excellent, honest and true.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for this hard-hitting and no-nonsense post, djp!Coram Deohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504564435400500996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69068565386645350512007-05-19T19:04:00.000-07:002007-05-19T19:04:00.000-07:00Well, I am thankful for blogs like this that remin...Well, I am thankful for blogs like this that reminds me of the ignorance that still exists in fundamentalist Christianity. You see, the groups I usually converse with have actually read the formal Catholic documents and have engaged in lengthy discussions with Catholics on the notion of justification. Heck, a whole denomination named after one of the fathers of the reformation (that would be Lutheranism, and the father would be - you guessed it, Luther) actually sat down and had a substantial talk with the Catholics and came to the Joint Declaration on Justification (a document I'm sure has been read numerous times by the current blogger - right). Wait, wait...maybe I'm being harsh - maybe it's true that when someone says they want to be a Catholic that have left Jesus Christ (that was what was said, right?). It's shame to come to that conclusion, since I really enjoyed Irenaeus, Tertullian, Augustine, Nyssa, Nazianzus, Chrysostom, Maximus, Aquinas, yatta, yatta, yatta - it's a shame they ain't Christian. BUT, at least MacAurthur is, and so is Pyro. The church is in good hands (that is, if you are also a pre-millienial dispensationalist - which, if I'm correct, no Reformer was). <BR/><BR/>I'm being a bit cheeky, yes, but so is Pyro. Let's see if he'll let fire mix with fire.jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00934329003900999064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88142546661748199832007-05-18T10:18:00.000-07:002007-05-18T10:18:00.000-07:00It always strikes me regarding "veneration" and pr...It always strikes me regarding "veneration" and prayers to Mary, that Jeremiah 44 could so easily be talking about RCC. They make offerings and cakes, submitting prayers up to the queen of heaven. This same scenario may be seen repeated in many Latin American countries where they offer up prayers and bake cakes/burn incense for Mary. They even refer to her as the Queen of Heaven. (which I guess they defend by Revelation with the woman with the crown.) Anyway, seems awful close to me.Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04413862670965436200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-50848329230550411662007-05-18T07:02:00.000-07:002007-05-18T07:02:00.000-07:00As a former Roman Catholic, one of the things that...As a former Roman Catholic, one of the things that most disturbs me is the manifest idolatry of the mass. On a few other blogs, I put these words:<BR/><BR/><I>"I hope he (Beckwith) has adequately considered the fact that when he is kneeling down in the mass during the event of transubstantiation, <B>he is to worship and adore the bread/host as if it were Christ himself standing before him</B>."</I><BR/><BR/>That's what Rome teaches and this is the idolatry I am talking about. <BR/><BR/>I also added:<BR/><BR/><I>"I also wonder if he has considered what seems to be entailed by the doctrine of concomitance. If the bread and the wine are both the BODY, blood, soul and divinity of Christ, then Christ has two bodies, at least. Moreover, if Christ is bodily present as the mass takes place all over the world, then I guess his body is ubiquitous. How does Trent, in that regard, comport with the Chalcedonian Formula? Hmm"</I><BR/><BR/>Not only are there serious and deadly problems between Roman doctrine and the biblical teaching with respect to sola gratia/sola fide, but they also have serious Christological problems.<BR/><BR/>Rome has a blasphemous and idolatrous system. For that reason, I think anyone indwelt by the Spirit should be disgusted and heartbroken by his decision.<BR/><BR/>John's warning is just as relevant today as it was in his day:<BR/><BR/>NKJ 1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.<BR/><BR/>If there was anything that made God especially furious with Israel in the OT, it was their idolatry. Worshipping a piece of bread (which is why they kneel in the mass at this point) as if it were Christ himself is idolatry, no matter how many sophisticated Aristotelean categories are employed to argue for the so called "transubstantiation."Tony Byrnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02102293843397809802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26368012861695914192007-05-18T05:50:00.000-07:002007-05-18T05:50:00.000-07:00Rebecca, I'd stick with White, Sproul, Johnson.In ...Rebecca, I'd stick with White, Sproul, Johnson.<BR/><BR/>In these spoiled, stuffed, lukewarm times, too many professed Evangelicals are starry-eyed, muddle-headed, and jelly-spined when it comes to the monstrous apostate abomination that is Rome today. Rome's a good fooler, and many are fooled.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8458135896728557662007-05-18T05:46:00.000-07:002007-05-18T05:46:00.000-07:00I meant to also add that saying that sola fide mus...I meant to also add that saying that sola fide must not be denied allows one to accept a man like Augustine as being authentically Christian. While he did teach things contrary to sola fide, he was not in rebellious denial of it like those who adhere to Trent. I think <A HREF="http://reformation21.org/Upcoming_Issues/Professor_Beckwith/330/" REL="nofollow">Carl Trueman was correct when he said</A>:<BR/><BR/>“The problem with tackling pre-Reformation views of justification is, of course, that the church strictly speaking had no view: the Reformation crisis itself precipitates the first elaborate formulation of justification by the Catholic Church at the Council of Trent, a decree which then imposed order on the Catholic Church’s dogmas in this area.”Tony Byrnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02102293843397809802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28069251070232736012007-05-18T05:41:00.000-07:002007-05-18T05:41:00.000-07:00Hi Dan (DJP) and Tom Chantry,I've appreciated both...Hi Dan (DJP) and Tom Chantry,<BR/><BR/>I've appreciated both of your posts. Some terrific comments and important distinctions have been made. I thought that maybe both of you might be interested in checking out the following posts.<BR/><BR/>1) In this post, I make some distinctions regarding <A HREF="http://theologicalmeditations.blogspot.com/2005/12/affirmation-and-denial.html" REL="nofollow">Affirmation and Denial</A> with respect to essential doctrines.<BR/><BR/>2) In this post, <A HREF="http://theologicalmeditations.blogspot.com/2007/05/sola-fide-michael-patton-and-beckwith.html" REL="nofollow">I interact with a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary on the Beckwith situation, the essential status of Sola Fide doctrine and how it must not be DENIED</A>.<BR/><BR/>I'm particularly interested in what you both think with regard to the second post above. I think many people have been trapped into thinking that one must affirm sola fide in order to be saved. If that's the case, then that may incline one to condemn many in the early church. So, instead of condemning early church fathers, they just drop sola fide down to a non-essential status and pave the way, I think, to inclusivism. On the other hand, some who adhere to the essential status of sola fide turn to Landmarkist type views.<BR/><BR/>I think the right path is to 1) affirm sola fide as an essential doctrine but 2) say that it is of the sort that must not be denied. For that reason, it is right to say that those who abandon it are apostate.Tony Byrnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02102293843397809802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-7586576176219660592007-05-18T00:13:00.000-07:002007-05-18T00:13:00.000-07:00Here are a few helpful books on this topic.Is the ...Here are a <A HREF="http://ressourcement.blogspot.com/2006/07/is-reformation-over.html" REL="nofollow">few helpful books</A> on this topic.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://ressourcement.blogspot.com/2007/03/is-reformation-over.html" REL="nofollow">Is the Reformation Over?</A> Phil Johnson tackles this question head on...Fr. D.L. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17048377154825646232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62775507859355695962007-05-17T20:24:00.000-07:002007-05-17T20:24:00.000-07:00Rebecca, a friend recommends James White's Roman C...Rebecca, a friend recommends James White's <I>Roman Catholic Controversy</I> and <I>Mary: Another Redeemer</I>. I'm told R. C. Sproul has a good one, but I don't know the title.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-18170708776675722482007-05-17T18:16:00.000-07:002007-05-17T18:16:00.000-07:00So what are some resources on what all is wrong wi...So what are some resources on what all is wrong with the Catholic Church? In reading the original post, I could have thought Dan's friend and mine were one in the same. Providentially, I guess it's possible that his situation was to help me later down the road in mine.<BR/><BR/>What is so wrong with the Catholic Church. In my heart, I know that it is wrong. I have about a year until I will be faced with this person regularly, and he is a dear dear friend. I do not want to think of him being an apostate. But I tremble as it appears to be the case. He is very skilled in debate, and I need to figure out now why I believe RCC is quite possibly the whore of babylon. I knew it more at one point. Please help me refresh.<BR/><BR/>Thank you in advance!!Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04413862670965436200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40675125520078757672007-05-17T16:35:00.000-07:002007-05-17T16:35:00.000-07:00djb,I understand your point...and I'm not saying t...djb,<BR/>I understand your point...and I'm not saying that the official position of an organization matters...it does. Even if individual members do not support that official position, they wear that position around along with their membership regardless. I just find it a grace of God that these dissonant individuals exist and we can call them true brother and sister since they love Jesus and believe that it is by faith and not works and not be praying to Mary or any of the other truly brutal theological positions the official RCC holds<BR/><BR/>I find this reality as a grace from God and we can take joy in it even as we see the greater body of RCC as apostate.Paul Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14378154165290836189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-43776490990521504712007-05-17T15:39:00.000-07:002007-05-17T15:39:00.000-07:00Huh?Huh?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46038240258082056472007-05-17T14:53:00.000-07:002007-05-17T14:53:00.000-07:00djp you are more than welcome to delete my comment...djp you are more than welcome to delete my comment.......I am just sorry you can not accept the TRUTH.Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01486865227041429770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89599816485972615902007-05-17T14:30:00.000-07:002007-05-17T14:30:00.000-07:00Friendly reminders to trolls and others:1. Read t...Friendly reminders to trolls and others:<BR/><BR/>1. Read the blog rules<BR/>2. Keep the blog rules<BR/>3. Read the post you're going to comment on, as well as the comments. That will help prevent you from making a fool of yourself by laying something down that has already been dealt with.<BR/><BR/>(I'm having to do more deleting than I'd rather.)DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-38660668608273007822007-05-17T14:18:00.000-07:002007-05-17T14:18:00.000-07:00How can you hold any hope to change in the Roman C...How can you hold any hope to change in the Roman Catholic Church when it is Satan's domain as it says in Rev 17?<BR/><BR/>Yes, God has been merciful and gracious to save some out of that corrupt and evil system and I am sure He will continue to do so, but the core of catholicism is evil because it is Satan's counterfeit and it is FOOLS GOLD!Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01486865227041429770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86247536010867554612007-05-17T11:14:00.000-07:002007-05-17T11:14:00.000-07:00Paul D — thanks for a fine question. Here are my t...<B>Paul D</B> — thanks for a fine question. Here are my thoughts:<BR/><BR/>Do we accept the proposition that organizations stand for things? And that membership in those organizations indicates support for those things?<BR/><BR/>Now, I warn you, my example will be offensive. Feel offended if you like, but please do think about it.<BR/><BR/>Might there be members of NAMBLA who are not, themselves, pederasts? Does that make membership in NAMBLA morally insignificant?<BR/><BR/>It isn't as if a president of the ETS has not had endless opportunity to be aware of the Biblical issues involved.<BR/><BR/>Besides, let me add this (which I stressed earlier): the RCC itself prides itself on uniformity. We know that's nonsense, but that (they imagine) is one of their big selling-points. You've heard it: there are 498,206,169 Protestant denominations, while there's just one glorious big happy RCC.<BR/><BR/>Now, they can't have it both ways. They can't say, "Come to Rome, we're all unified!", and then when their official and institutional apostasy is pointed out, say, "Come to Rome, you can think whatever you want!"DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77119101830362489562007-05-17T10:58:00.000-07:002007-05-17T10:58:00.000-07:00As much as I am blessed by visiting this blog, I'm...As much as I am blessed by visiting this blog, I'm really going to have to limit myself to a couple of visits per week. Every time I come here I get challenged about something and I have to pray for strength to step forward in that challenge in whatever way He wishes!<BR/><BR/>I'd say thank you but right now you're (you PyroManiacs) are like the big brother who, everytime I think I'm so close, shows me that it's a little farther and dares me to go the distance. <BR/><BR/>;)~Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01819856178499938127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82977082349837660792007-05-17T10:52:00.000-07:002007-05-17T10:52:00.000-07:00I don't mean to be argumentative at this late a da...I don't mean to be argumentative at this late a date (16 hours late!). <BR/><BR/>I think the discussion on apostasy is one of the clearest I've seen. So thank you for that. I also can appreciate the difference of being a Roman Catholic that is saved in the RCC and those that forsake the lessons of the reformation to realign themselves with the RCC. My parents were both saved out of the RCC, so I know the issues.<BR/><BR/>But much of the criticism expressed here has been centered on the RCC and it is assuming that the RCC is actually homogeneous in doctrine and practice. But this is perhaps a naive understanding. Just as there are some local churches within the PCUSA who are not for homosexual marriage, there are some in the RCC that aren't so keen on much of what the RCC is. I know a catholic monsignor who is about as evangelistic as you could like. He was saved through the Catholic church and still ministers to and through them. I worked with many from his parish who were true brothers and sisters, understanding the issues of the RCC but still holding hope for change.Paul Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14378154165290836189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-17270008205486975632007-05-16T20:33:00.000-07:002007-05-16T20:33:00.000-07:00'SteveMissionary in Asia'God bless you brother. Ke...'Steve<BR/>Missionary in Asia'<BR/><BR/>God bless you brother. Keep on.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53474293269124857862007-05-16T19:29:00.000-07:002007-05-16T19:29:00.000-07:00What a good and timely article. Thanks for the non...What a good and timely article. Thanks for the non-compromising stance of Pyromaniacs and all your 'hot commentary'. I came across this site about six months ago and it is a weekly boost to my faith!<BR/><BR/>Steve<BR/>Missionary in AsiaThe Medieval Doghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03814679371832458333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-15787245272545569242007-05-16T18:32:00.000-07:002007-05-16T18:32:00.000-07:00Heh...too subtle for me! I just figured you'd men...Heh...too subtle for me! I just figured you'd mentioned a Mr. Webb or Ms. Duckworth in the article, and I had somehow missed the reference.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.com