tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post3076184293463786256..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Church discipline surveyPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85509612504295345192008-12-24T17:20:00.000-08:002008-12-24T17:20:00.000-08:00If someone can't follow a really short post, with ...If someone can't follow a really short post, with really concise rules - what hope of grasping a book as long as the Bible?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20585877358510490992008-12-24T16:36:00.000-08:002008-12-24T16:36:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85756136238266315262008-12-24T16:27:00.000-08:002008-12-24T16:27:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-91466057970944027532008-12-24T16:20:00.000-08:002008-12-24T16:20:00.000-08:00Like the blog, this meta has a topic, and rules. P...Like the blog, this meta has a topic, and rules. Please read, and abide.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-60631845412897411252008-12-24T16:15:00.000-08:002008-12-24T16:15:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51861640894987878232008-12-23T08:02:00.000-08:002008-12-23T08:02:00.000-08:00Our church has no explicit statement in our bylaws...Our church has no explicit statement in our bylaws, but this is the way that we practice it, and did so a year ago in an strangely similar situation when we affirmed that one cannot withdraw membership midstream in the disciple process in an attempt to short-circuit accountability.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-57204162588301601482008-12-22T20:31:00.000-08:002008-12-22T20:31:00.000-08:00Yes, the church where I am a pastor does have this...Yes, the church where I am a pastor does have this explicit statement, and yes, we have implemented it at least once in the last few years. Other evangelical churches in town hate us for it.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08810991035512652839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55679087236697388852008-12-22T14:09:00.000-08:002008-12-22T14:09:00.000-08:00Unfortunately, no. My church is very small and doe...Unfortunately, no. My church is very small and does not have any official bylaws.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10400453367335679199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-71747064554358776182008-12-22T08:44:00.000-08:002008-12-22T08:44:00.000-08:00We do not. I wish we did.We do not. I wish we did.Joelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16202021167344775243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72636299831919874152008-12-22T04:31:00.000-08:002008-12-22T04:31:00.000-08:00We do, but it was difficult to pass, and hard to g...We do, but it was difficult to pass, and hard to get the elders and congregation to apply.<BR/><BR/>-Matt MitchellMatt Mitchellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07270416631376832060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-25909941396526415642008-12-21T22:07:00.000-08:002008-12-21T22:07:00.000-08:00Incidentally, I did look at the constitution of th...Incidentally, I did look at the constitution of the ELCA church to which I currently belong. There is a section on the procedure of discipline, but it does not address what would happen if the member removed himself from the rolls. Unsurprisingly, it is also nearly unused. <BR/><BR/>I only know of one instance of an attempt to apply it in our area over the last 10 years. That ultimately involved trumped up charges against a person who was guilty of being too scriptural. He was involved in a dispute with the pastor about the uniqueness and divinity of Christ … the member being the one holding that Christ was the ONLY way, truth, and life and that Christ was THE Son of God, not just a child of God as we all are children of God. <BR/><BR/>The charges involved a laundry list of petty and unsubstantiated rumors started by his detractors. The only one that stuck was that he was “divisive”. The charges were ultimately dropped after the Bishop was called in, but the process was neither private nor caring. <BR/><BR/>A stark difference from a rightly applied model like Grace seems to have used.UinenMaiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04077219873155040591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23538748827214511072008-12-21T22:03:00.000-08:002008-12-21T22:03:00.000-08:00I asked the pastor at the OPC we are attending if ...I asked the pastor at the OPC we are attending if he knew about the story from Jacksonville and if Ms. Hancock’s self-removal from the membership would end the process. He said that it would depend on the circumstances - which made me nervous until he explained.<BR/><BR/>He said that this will be covered fully in the membership classes we will start in the new year. They expressly state in the bylaws that church discipline will be carried out regardless of whether or not that member is attending. <BR/><BR/>If the member has chosen to self-excommunicate <B><I>before</I></B> any discipline has begun, the church has to honor that request. However, if the discipline process has begun, the "flight" of the member would not stop the process. Further, they could not honor the delinquent member's request to be removed because the discipline was ongoing. The recent case in his own church involved such an attempt to flee.<BR/><BR/>Referencing that case, he said that it was <I>months</I> in attempting to avoid disclosure to the congregation though private and semi-private admonition, counseling, meetings, and prayer. As Stefan said, "There are a lot of very private stages to go through before the penultimate step of 'taking it to the church....'" The pastor also said that before such a topic was brought into the congregation, all visitors were asked to leave and all children who were not communicant members were removed from the sanctuary. <BR/><BR/>The final step of airing it in the congregation is done because of that mandate and also because the purpose of discipline is two-fold. It calls the straying member to repentance and it protects the church from the influence of that person - it identifies the goat among the sheep so that the sheep are not harmed, as someone above mentioned.UinenMaiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04077219873155040591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1929806995279606362008-12-21T18:40:00.000-08:002008-12-21T18:40:00.000-08:00We have no such stipulation.We have no such stipulation.Chris Braunshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09771419445351378042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-49200620851695373152008-12-21T16:31:00.000-08:002008-12-21T16:31:00.000-08:00To CSLEWIS3147:IN NWA (Rogers) try Legacy Baptist ...To CSLEWIS3147:<BR/>IN NWA (Rogers) try <BR/>Legacy Baptist Church<BR/>Hope Community Bible Chruchghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01745048138757906197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85151628776402057042008-12-21T16:24:00.000-08:002008-12-21T16:24:00.000-08:00Hayden --I don't know Kong but I cover a lot of ca...Hayden --<BR/><BR/>I don't know Kong but I cover a lot of cases on discipline. There is no question the courts can't review the reasons for disfellowship in a church. Besides her case is not borderline.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>But you claim regarding bylaws I'd like to see some cite for. I want to get the claim in context. Can you post the case? <BR/><BR/>As far as counter cites:<BR/>O'Moore v. Driscoll: Lack of consent to a ritual instantly removes privilege (which was upheld in Wallersheim v. Scientology). There are been several rape cases where the religious ritual defense has been used unsuccessfully. <BR/><BR/>In Scolinki the courts found that church discipline arises from common interest. Since there is no common interest with a woman voluntarily leaving the religious community no protections would exist.<BR/><BR/>Morasse v. Brochu is a specific application in this case regulating communication with non church members. <BR/><BR/>Chavis v. Rowe allows you to apply many of the older cases since all regulations involving ministers apply to all members equally.<BR/><BR/>I could keep going but I don't have to. The reason I'm positive you are incorrect regarding Florida is law, is that if your understanding of the law were correct, religious institutions would be essentially immune from all civil laws and most criminal law. We agree that churches can freely determine their own rituals and if they can also freely determine their own membership scope then they can do what they want to anyone without redress. Do you believe a wiccan coven can legally bleed you if they claim you as a member even if you disagree. If not what's the difference between your status with regard to the coven and Miss Hancock's with regard to Grace Church? Remember the courts can't review membership procedures so if your understanding were correct they couldn't rule on whether you were really a member of the coven since that would now be a point of religious dispute. The state clearly has compelling in now allowing a situation like that.CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51935865400873747532008-12-21T16:06:00.000-08:002008-12-21T16:06:00.000-08:00My church thankfully does also, whose shepherd is ...<A HREF="http://gracebibleny.org" REL="nofollow">My church</A> thankfully does also, whose shepherd is a TMS graduate.Andy/Drew/Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15846452177626242800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87315546759806419702008-12-21T15:20:00.000-08:002008-12-21T15:20:00.000-08:00CD Host,Please check you case law. In Florida, you...CD Host,<BR/><BR/>Please check you case law. In Florida, you can be dis-fellowshipped for ANY reason that the church sees fit.(Kond vs Murdyk is instructive on this) <BR/><BR/>Basically, legally, this church has the protection of the courts of Florida from what the state deems 'excessive entanglement' and can carry on the process provided for in their by-laws. <BR/><BR/>This church has done nothing wrong legally or according to the Scriptures. You, or others, may not like how they handled it, but remember you are diagnosing a situation not as part of this particular church family but over the internet. Be very careful how you critique the 'Bride of Christ' which this church is most definitely a part of.Haydenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01256518337951573331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39086008869522480862008-12-21T15:05:00.000-08:002008-12-21T15:05:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.David A. Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00465387359523299616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66071373445191796822008-12-21T11:14:00.000-08:002008-12-21T11:14:00.000-08:00Our church by-laws include this phrase in the sect...Our church by-laws include this phrase in the section for Church Discipline:<BR/><BR/>"It is understood that this process will continue to conclusion to conclusion whether the erring member leaves the church or otherwise seeks to withdraw from membership to avoid discipline."<BR/><BR/>I will also note that in one case about 10 years ago, when a member did leave and go to another church to avoid discipline, the elders contacted the new church and informed their leadership of the ongoing discipline procedure. <BR/><BR/>~pastorwayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20059433905413476232008-12-21T08:56:00.000-08:002008-12-21T08:56:00.000-08:00One good thing may have come out of these sad even...One good thing may have come out of these sad events.<BR/><BR/>Given that even <I>Rick Warren</I> is catching flack in some quarters of the media for supporting Proposition 8, the world (or at least the Fox News-watching world) has seen that there are some churches willing to take a stand against <I>all kinds</I> of sexual sin; not just against some while unbiblically turning a blind eye to others.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45077568651071899472008-12-21T08:20:00.000-08:002008-12-21T08:20:00.000-08:00At our church, each step of the disciplinary proce...At our church, each step of the disciplinary process has two possible outcomes: "listening" (repentance and restoration) or "refusing to listen."<BR/><BR/>Withdrawing from the process would constitute "refusing to listen," <I>which means that the process would then proceed to the next stage.</I> The ultimate outcome if the unrepentant member refuses to listen at every stage, would be disfellowshipping.<BR/><BR/>Each stage, however, allows generous time for the member to return into a loving relationship—first, with the offended party; then, if that doesn't bear fruit, with the others who accompany the offended party in the next stage; and then, if all that doesn't bear fruit, with the elders' restorative committee. There are <I>a lot</I> of very <I>private</I> stages to go through before the penultimate step of "taking it to the church," and <I>a lot</I> of opportunities for the member to return to a right relationship with his brothers and sisters in Christ.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34854185860451988672008-12-21T07:45:00.000-08:002008-12-21T07:45:00.000-08:00I have to say:Here in Britian the question is rath...I have to say:<BR/><BR/>Here in Britian the question is rather:<BR/><BR/>How many of you know of Biblically PRACTICING Churches where the Church actually search the Scriptures to see whether these things BE SO?<BR/>How many will even ENTERTAIN Church discipline Biblically? (As many "evangelicals" love pragmatism, Inter-denominationalism, human wisdoms, NUMBERS and statistics... instead of Applying 1 Corinthians 1 & 2 and the other Scriptures by faith.)Boerseuntjiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12823588390354919031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-30587955348731160342008-12-21T07:40:00.000-08:002008-12-21T07:40:00.000-08:00I checked this blog on Friday morning, and there w...I checked this blog on Friday morning, and there was nothing new. Blissfully unaware of this whole discussion that unfolded later that day and yesterday, I missed the whole show!<BR/><BR/>Can't take my eyes of this blog for so much as a day....Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-57351764512405513012008-12-21T05:47:00.000-08:002008-12-21T05:47:00.000-08:00In the PCUSA (gasp! yes, you do have a few readers...In the PCUSA (gasp! yes, you do have a few readers from there), if you "renounce jurisdiction," i.e., give up your membership either in a church (members and elders and deacons) or in the presbytery (ministers) while under investigation or during a trial, the matter isn't simply dropped. Instead, the clerk will report both the renounciation _and_ the charges filed at the next meeting. This is to prevent people from skipping out and stopping the process and hiding behind secrecy.<BR/><BR/>Another pastor in my presbytery was just brought up on charges of sexual misconduct and renounced jurisdiction a few weeks ago. That means, at the next meeting in February, our clerk will be reading into the minutes the charges filed, and since the investigating committee was ready to go to trial, they will be read in great detail.<BR/><BR/>I'm not looking forward to that. It's a sad, sad thing when God's people fall so far and so hard.Rev Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04950446644617877851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48242821630129728172008-12-21T05:22:00.000-08:002008-12-21T05:22:00.000-08:00CD-Host,So you're telling us that the courts gover...CD-Host,<BR/><BR/>So you're telling us that the courts govern the church?Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.com