tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post3129456483020229674..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Whole counsel, or full-of-holes counselPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-15986608518861821232008-06-08T04:57:00.000-07:002008-06-08T04:57:00.000-07:00". . . a sack-full of isolated inspired fortune-co...". . . a sack-full of isolated inspired fortune-cookies." Sounds like a gnostic gospel to me. But then, that is fitting, considering the expectation of direct, mystical guidance by "the Spirit" on the part of such pastors. <BR/><BR/>I can relate to your words about your former pastor in my current experience, but I must say yours is more extreme. But that's what I get for settling for a 4-point Calvinist who preaches a Keswick form of sanctification. At least he brings an outline to the podium to provide some guidance to his thinking as he thinks up what to say on the fly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48856479841059478962008-06-06T05:00:00.000-07:002008-06-06T05:00:00.000-07:00And wouldn't you know, the Frito Bandito received ...And wouldn't you know, the Frito Bandito received an instant, automatic and permanent ban, LOL. <BR/><BR/>Thanks, Strong Tower, for the fun memories. I actually had one of those erasers until the teacher confiscated them all from the class. I can still remember her shouting verbatim...<BR/><BR/>"From now on, there will be NO MORE FRITO BANDITO in this classroom!"Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-56641078387242911062008-06-05T21:46:00.000-07:002008-06-05T21:46:00.000-07:00Strong Tower, you rock!What a flashback that was.G...Strong Tower, you rock!<BR/><BR/>What a flashback that was.<BR/><BR/>Gracias.GUNNYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11422524342398284973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80695663522625988442008-06-05T19:52:00.000-07:002008-06-05T19:52:00.000-07:00Weirdos<A HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMcW6esMN3c&feature=related" REL="nofollow">Weirdos</A>Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27099642163355031052008-06-05T19:27:00.000-07:002008-06-05T19:27:00.000-07:00Ha! Oh no, I'm sure I'm waaaay to young to remembe...Ha! Oh no, I'm sure I'm waaaay to young to remember him... :) <BR/><BR/>It's one of the many extra-Biblical expressions my husband and I have for church and theology-related shenanigans, as in - <BR/><BR/>"How was the womens' tea, hon?"<BR/><BR/>"Well, we started by singing 'In the Garden'"<BR/><BR/>"Ay-yi-YI!"<BR/><BR/>In this particular (excellently described and denounced as usual) case, there's also the oldie but goodie "RTWS" or "Random Thoughts While Strolling"...Rachael Starkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10781158372237369417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8400220595178170462008-06-05T18:29:00.000-07:002008-06-05T18:29:00.000-07:00Aye - Aye - Aye - ohI am the Frito BanditoGive me ...Aye - Aye - Aye - oh<BR/>I am the Frito Bandito<BR/>Give me some Fritos <BR/>and I'll be your friend.<BR/><BR/>Yummy!GUNNYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11422524342398284973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24832629439218486032008-06-05T17:19:00.000-07:002008-06-05T17:19:00.000-07:00Reformed Mommy,Are you saying that the eisegesis i...Reformed Mommy,<BR/><BR/>Are you saying that the eisegesis is more akin to the Frito Bandito? <BR/><BR/>(That is, if anyone here remembers the Frito Bandito)Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-56525809638934772542008-06-05T16:39:00.000-07:002008-06-05T16:39:00.000-07:00Dave, the nature of prophecy may be debated, but I...Dave, the nature of prophecy may be debated, but I don't know too many who view it as "biblical exposition."<BR/><BR/>It primarily involves communicating God's message to His people, not expounding an already-existing message.greglonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05514850772020363684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48438063399735846442008-06-05T14:49:00.000-07:002008-06-05T14:49:00.000-07:00DJP, what you've described is exactly what Beth Mo...DJP, what you've described is exactly what Beth Moore does at her conferences. No prep; entirely "Spirit"-led. Same results. I went to one of her conferences a couple years ago and will never go back.SolaMommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07569633683299802644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21838052481826874172008-06-05T12:35:00.000-07:002008-06-05T12:35:00.000-07:00"I was offering Biblical criticism of the thought ..."I was offering Biblical criticism of the thought that preparation, order, and forethought are somehow antithetical to the operation of the Holy Spirit."<BR/><BR/>I have actually heard this stated as the standard plea of a true Pentecostal Preacher. Many times. Some were like your pastor and simply refuse to "dilute" the power of the Spirit by preparing a sermon.<BR/><BR/>Answering Penn's question, there is a difference between evaglelstic preaching and pulpit preaching. The first is directed toward the unsaved, the second to the church. They both have like effect, preaching is teaching and teaching is preaching, however the second is, and should be more systematic for it is intended for the building up of the body of believers in a systematic way. In other words, it is intended not just to bring a saving knowledge but to equip for maturity so that each will work having something to give to others.<BR/><BR/>In both venues spontaneity is not ruled out. In the case of evangelism, I suppose it depends on how that is being staged. If it is in small group or individual contexts, then I would say by all means try to reach some. In that case conversational approaches that by nature are spontaneous are fine so long as there is the systematic study prepared behind it. In the case of large evangelistic outreach though, it would again make more sense to approach a crowd with clearity and simplicity with the primary concern that it is comprehended by the greatest number. It is just not possibible to answer all the questions attending the message. In church, however, we have follow-up, classes where such questions concerning the preached message can and should be asked and addressed. And yes, as Reform/Calvinist when opportunity avails itself, I would not hesitate to preach spontaneously. But, if given the time I would prefer to study to show myself approved a workman who needs not to be ashamed. Remaining instant in and out of season is requisite to service, but for the teacher who must show himself apt at teaching then the conveyance of knowledge takes center stage. The best means is a sytematic approach that will not leave others guessing where you have been or where you are going.<BR/><BR/>Hope that helps.Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66473719800115668992008-06-05T12:23:00.000-07:002008-06-05T12:23:00.000-07:00ReformedMommy — ay-yi-yi-segesisI like it!<B>ReformedMommy</B> — <I>ay-yi-yi-segesis</I><BR/><BR/>I like it!DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77644464871582160252008-06-05T11:56:00.000-07:002008-06-05T11:56:00.000-07:00Just in case you're LOOKING for new terms, try thi...Just in case you're LOOKING for new terms, try this: Evan-Gumby-lical (ee-van-gum-BEE-li-cal, emphasis on the BEE). "Evangumbylicals have a soft, pliable theology that can be twisted and bent to suit almost any audience without breaking."<BR/><BR/>If you like that one, we need to work Pokey into the act somehow.Dave ....https://www.blogger.com/profile/06340206720526412975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41615238634174209732008-06-05T11:35:00.000-07:002008-06-05T11:35:00.000-07:0031For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all...31For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; 33for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. (1 Cor. 14:31-33)<BR/><BR/>The cessationist in me believes that this has to do with biblical exposition as the "prophetic gift" in the church. And this is the check an balance that gifted, studied, and PREPARED folks have to offer. Sounds like a working example of the "whole counsel" to me.<BR/><BR/>But, of course, I just admitted to a isogetical approach. Get the kindling! ;-)Dave ....https://www.blogger.com/profile/06340206720526412975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13227853552242203542008-06-05T11:23:00.000-07:002008-06-05T11:23:00.000-07:00Heh... We began the thread with an old term from t...Heh... <BR/><BR/>We began the thread with an old term from the TeamPyro glossary, and now I think we just added a new one.<BR/><BR/>;o)Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74791123345626082622008-06-05T10:59:00.000-07:002008-06-05T10:59:00.000-07:00I may have an example of Biblical "extemporaneous"...I may have an example of Biblical "extemporaneous" preaching, from MacArthur himself. Years ago, I was at a GCC college study being led by Mark, his son. He led the study using his Dad's Bible, inside which were his notes from the previous day's chapel at the Master's College. Mark commented that he had been sitting with his dad during chapel and watched him write out those notes during music before he got up to speak. IOW, John just sat there and came up with the entire outline, subpoints, etc., in the ten or fifteen minutes before he got up to preach for forty or so. I had been in that chapel. While today I don't remember what he preached on, I do remember that it had one Biblically-originated, Biblically-developed idea, with plenty of supporting texts and the typical trademark MacArthur alliterative style. And so what struck me when Mark commented that that had all just "come out of his (John's) head" was that his head was just crammed full of Scripture, and so that's what "spontaneously" came out... <BR/><BR/>So if I'm not mixing up my seminoid terms,that John did was exegesis; what you, Dan, experienced wasn't even eisegesis, more like ay-yi-yi-segesis....Rachael Starkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10781158372237369417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58130053207268435452008-06-05T10:30:00.000-07:002008-06-05T10:30:00.000-07:00The story of your pastor reminds me of my time in ...The story of your pastor reminds me of my time in college and then in youth ministry. I wish I had kept track of the times someone had told me they hadn't done any of their reading or studying, and asked me to pray for grace to help them pass a test. Or people who don't make a budget and run up all kinds of debt, and pray that God would just bring in a bunch of money to take care of them. Or don't bother thinking about the consequences of a decision, and just blindly trust God will lead them through opening/closing doors.<BR/><BR/>The Bible says plenty of stuff about prayer and trusting God. Nowhere do I find anything suggesting the Holy Spirit is a license to abdicate your duty to study, or budget, or shepherd your flock. I'm not sure where God promises to be a bailout for our laziness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-91190962089639553582008-06-05T10:29:00.000-07:002008-06-05T10:29:00.000-07:00Gunny, you stole my thunder.Exactly what I was goi...Gunny, you stole my thunder.<BR/><BR/><B><I>Exactly</I></B> what I was going to say...and what my seminary homiletics professor, Dr. Ralph Turk, used to tell us.greglonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05514850772020363684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-83663911069179765122008-06-05T10:24:00.000-07:002008-06-05T10:24:00.000-07:00Frank's comment:"Never opened the Book; never glan...Frank's comment:<BR/><BR/>"Never opened the Book; never glanced at a note. Yet it was wholly obvious that his remarks were not only prepared but in fact studied and well-considered. He had, at least, done that passage before."<BR/><BR/>Yes, there's nothing I disagree with in Frank's post. I was not clear enough, I guess.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09456884689908680100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-50446222479498001352008-06-05T10:22:00.000-07:002008-06-05T10:22:00.000-07:00"But here's how he applied that true concept: he r..."But here's how he applied that true concept: he refused to prepare or outline sermons."<BR/><BR/>The irony to me by these guys is that they limit the Holy Spirit, presuming that He can't/won't guide during the preparation process as well as the delivery of the sermon.GUNNYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11422524342398284973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40437751623670128322008-06-05T10:20:00.000-07:002008-06-05T10:20:00.000-07:00I should have asked if any reformed/calvinist/non-...I should have asked if any reformed/calvinist/non-evanjellybean pastors ever preach on the spot, when necessary, without having to map everything first? Evangelism is what I was kind of getting at. But that is changing the subject, and I read a comment about that in another post the other day about keeping to the subject. Sorry.Penn Tomassettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04426113620189406498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61824180919101076772008-06-05T10:14:00.000-07:002008-06-05T10:14:00.000-07:00djp: Random, chaotic, arrogant, irresponsible impu...djp: <I>Random, chaotic, arrogant, irresponsible impulsiveness is not a spiritual trait.</I><BR/><BR/>Amen! However those who think that those characteristics are marks of "super-spirituality" like to take this verse out of context to support their nonsense: "<I>When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say</I>" (Luke 12:11-12).olan stricklandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05345193051857763038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28793236217379468782008-06-05T09:22:00.000-07:002008-06-05T09:22:00.000-07:00"The cloke that I left at Toas with Carpus, when y..."The cloke that I left at Toas with Carpus, when you come, bring with you, and the books, but especially the parchments." (2 Tim. 4:13).<BR/><BR/>Obviously Paul was doing some study or preparation or something.<BR/><BR/>However, that did not mean he never preached spontaneously (Acts 21:31-22:22).<BR/><BR/>Do any Pastors ever preach outside of their pulpits? What about all those poor souls walking down the street outside? [I ask that to promote some thought, and perhaps some testimony, not to be derogatory].<BR/><BR/>Grace and peace to those who love Christ Jesus sincerely.Penn Tomassettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04426113620189406498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-57183588953847813562008-06-05T09:10:00.000-07:002008-06-05T09:10:00.000-07:00Exactly right, Frank. I was offering Biblical crit...Exactly right, Frank. I was offering Biblical criticism of the thought that preparation, order, and forethought are somehow antithetical to the operation of the Holy Spirit.<BR/><BR/>I remember thinking, "What -- the Holy Spirit can't deal with you a week ahead of time, when you start studying in earnest? And five days ahead, when you start thinking yourself clear? And three days in advance, when you jot down some notes and find an outline that clarifies the text?"<BR/><BR/>Random, chaotic, arrogant, irresponsible impulsiveness is not a spiritual trait.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-75110202237531644092008-06-05T09:05:00.000-07:002008-06-05T09:05:00.000-07:00I don't want to abuse DJP's topic here (though it ...I don't want to abuse DJP's topic here (though it might turn out that way), but I think Dan's point here is not preaching from fully-prepared scripts: I think it's <I>making adequate preparation</I> and <I>intending to say something</I> rather than opening the Bible and hoping (even praying) for the best.<BR/><BR/>One of the best sermons I have ever heard was at a chapel service at Midwestern Seminary when the President at that time was about to retire. He preached on Titus 1:5 for 45 minutes as the charge to pastors.<BR/><BR/>Never opened the Book; never glanced at a note. Yet <I>it was wholly obvious</I> that his remarks were not only prepared <I>but in fact studied and well-considered</I>. He had, at least, done that passage before.<BR/><BR/>It is one thing to come to the text hoping your devotional time is going to give the Holy Spirit something to grab onto, and another entirely to have preparation time <I>over and above</I> your devotions <I>some that the Holy Spirit will definitely use you</I>.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21907110309031190752008-06-05T08:31:00.000-07:002008-06-05T08:31:00.000-07:00That's too bad about the guy who refuses to keep t...That's too bad about the guy who refuses to keep the sermon topic on the Bible. My pastor doesn't use notes (or sometimes he does, I haven't noticed), but he knows the Bible inside and out. One guy that impressed me even more is a guy named Willard Cantelon. He was an apostle. He quoted scripture (correctly) without referring to a Bible. He didn't use notes. <BR/><BR/>When you're starting out as pastor, they need to structure their sermons. Our young pastors all do this. But when you've got some 40 years of ministry (and studying), you wouldn't need necessarily to structure your sermons.<BR/><BR/>But it's never OK to go off topic and talk the about world's methods.<BR/><BR/>Nice post.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09456884689908680100noreply@blogger.com