tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post3176039725541903296..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Review: the World-Tilting GospelPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58671533796166492342011-10-13T10:47:25.158-07:002011-10-13T10:47:25.158-07:00Phil wrote:
"BTW, I'm glad the book has ...Phil wrote:<br /><br />"BTW, I'm glad the book has found such a large audience despite the apparent conspiracy of silence about it in a certain segment of the blogosphere that OUGHT to be hailing it."<br /><br />I thought about pointing this out in <a href="http://onepilgrimsprogress.wordpress.com/2011/10/07/the-world-tilting-gospel-a-review/" rel="nofollow">my review</a> but I decided not to chase that rabbit trail in that particular post. <br /><br />To make a long story short, I think it's quite reasonable to say that <i>The World-Tilting Gospel</i> is one of the more *ahem* <b>Gospel-Centered</b> books you're likely to see published this year and most years. <br /><br />I think there are a number of reasons why TWTG may not draw much attention from some who, based on their professed beliefs and focus, you'd think would find it a welcome publication. Certainly, there are many dozens of seemingly worthwhile books published each year. It's not possible to read them all at once. But if it never gets a mention at all by many who tend to read a lot of recently published books, (particularly those who ought to hail it, as Phil notes) the reader will draw his own conclusions as to why that might be.Chris Poehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13743196779591442960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79843253219635966462011-10-12T14:38:03.223-07:002011-10-12T14:38:03.223-07:00I love it when somebody shows up to say an author ...I love it when somebody shows up to say an author didn't discuss X, Y, or Z but the commentor hasn't finished the book.<br /><br />I mean why didn't Dan put everything I wanted to see in the chapter I read?Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46536946616391144462011-10-12T09:28:36.545-07:002011-10-12T09:28:36.545-07:00I think there is a wholly-legitimate criticism of ...I think there is a wholly-legitimate criticism of any theology which doesn't own the Old Testament. There is a serious problem with people who can't see Jesus as Prophet, Priest and King -- and a serious problem with being unable to uncork the bottle which has Jesus saying that "the Kingdom of God is at hand."<br /><br />However, Dan's book doesn't try to take an unbeliever who is probably wholly-ignorant of the Bible and make him a student of Jewish Theocracy before it calls him to repent and believe. And good on him for it.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88309432912846693482011-10-12T07:32:00.293-07:002011-10-12T07:32:00.293-07:00OK, Frank, I understand the OEM metaphor now. Than...OK, Frank, I understand the OEM metaphor now. Thanks. But I don't see where it gets us. In any case, it seems to me that I owe the freedom to disagree not to the Reformation—I don't see much disagreement expressed on this site, other than disagreement with those who don't conform to the popular Reformed model—but to the western tradition of rational criticism, freedom of speech, etc.<br /><br />I happily agree, however, that the Reformation is part of my marketplace. Modern evangelicalism is part of my marketplace. I believe strongly in the integrity and authority of scripture, and I believe that people need to find a saving faith in Jesus. The issue is how those two convictions interact with each other. I don't think that the way in which the gospel is usually presented is compatible with our belief in the integrity of scripture. Take the gospel out of the narrative and it becomes something else.<br /><br />As for the kingdom issue, I hold to my view that there is something very odd about an account of the gospel that does not mention the kingdom of God. That is hardly doctrinaire—it is simply a recognition that there is a very close connection in the Gospels between "gospel" and "kingdom", which I see as a strong argument for reading historically rather than theologically. Kingdom is all about the historical existence of Israel in the midst of the nations. 1 Corinthians 15:1-11 does not mention kingdom, but it does presuppose a narrative about Israel consistent with the Gospels, which is touched on throughout the Letter, not least a few verses later when Paul speaks of the reign or kingdom of the risen Jesus (cf. 1 Cor. 15:24-25). Like resurrection on the third day (cf. Hos. 6:1-2) this has to do with the story about Israel, but that can barely be entertained within the populist Reformed paradigm.<br /><br />By the way, Frank, I deeply resent the cynicism of your parting shot. Hate does not come into it. But thanks for taking the trouble to respond.<br /><br />Robert,<br /><br />I am saying that we cannot properly understand "gospel" in the New Testament without taking into account the whole story of the people of God. The way we typically read the New Testament is to put personal salvation in the foreground and history, as you suggest, in the background. I think that is a mistake for reasons that are too numerous to mention here. But I do not say this to the exclusion of personal salvation.Andrew Perrimanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16131308483959081297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-17857452286827907432011-10-12T06:21:00.856-07:002011-10-12T06:21:00.856-07:00I'm more puzzled after reading your response h...I'm more puzzled after reading your response here, Mr. Perriman. Do you think that we're supposed to be reading all of the NT strictly as history? And that we can't understand the Gospel without understanding Israel? God is a personal God, not some abstract personality out there...He reveals himself to us in Scripture and shows us our true state. Yes, the history can add some depth to that, but, to me at least, that is something that we should look for once we are mature believers. Unbelievers need the pure milk before the meat. And they need to see the poison that the world is offering us, too.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-59859766840701260842011-10-12T05:57:09.093-07:002011-10-12T05:57:09.093-07:00LOL - you're apologizing for asking how to buy...LOL - you're <i>apologizing</i> for asking how to buy my book? Dude, seriously, no worries! May <i>your</i> tribe increase.<br /><br />(c:DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46723513831121944532011-10-12T05:17:57.334-07:002011-10-12T05:17:57.334-07:00Thanks Dan, that does help. Sorry for interrupting...Thanks Dan, that does help. Sorry for interrupting the comment flow with my rather off-topic post, I couldn't work out till now where to find your email address...on my smartphone I clicked your profile and still couldn't seem to find it but I've learned something new today, thanks so much!Mike Audethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18177216102705794655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-30399605561760956532011-10-12T04:48:33.946-07:002011-10-12T04:48:33.946-07:00Mike Audet — thanks for asking. When an Australian...<b>Mike Audet</b> — thanks for asking. When an Australian reader emailed me back in August, Kregel's answer was that <b>Koorong</b> was their Australian distributor.<br /><br />Does that help? If you need more, I can look for more.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32075458151640601952011-10-12T04:44:33.188-07:002011-10-12T04:44:33.188-07:00As to the many fans of Dan and this blog, may thei...As to the many fans of Dan and this blog, may their tribe increase. There's no shame in it that Dan has written two books now and one of them is trending well at the grass roots level -- and outselling, for example, Scot McKnight's last book (at least at Amazon).<br /><br />Thanks for stopping by, Andrew -- hope your day has more than hate in it today.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9047196561821839942011-10-12T04:41:22.329-07:002011-10-12T04:41:22.329-07:00To that end, consider it: Perriman blames the Refo...To that end, consider it: Perriman blames the Reformation for Dan failing to properly seat the meaning of the Kingdom of God anywhere in his book. Yet, if one reads the book with any sort of fairness, Dan explains what he just did in this book is the afterword entitled, "Say ... what did I just do?" (starts on p. 303) And given that his framework for the book was a long-form meditation on 1 Cor 15:1-11 (which also doesn't mention the Kingdom of God, so maybe Perriman needs to review Paul's letters for their blinkered approach to the Gospel), perhaps Perriman could consider what is happening in that context <i>rather than the one he forces onto the book</i>.<br /><br />You see: the meaning of "doctrinaire" is that one imposes one's central doctrine in every case -- whether it is evident, necessary, or wise (or not). And for Perriman, the necessity to impose his doctrine "the Kingdom" on Dan's book was just too easy. But here's the thing: if he did that, he would have to first explain why Paul speaks of the Kingdom in "already/not yet" terms in 1 Cor, and not at all in 2 Car. And that would be a lot more work and thought than just saying Dan is not talking about the Kingdom aspects of the Gospel in this book -- but is in fact speaking about the argument for the Christian life Paul poses in terms of the resurrection.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40633619430220300952011-10-12T04:24:01.806-07:002011-10-12T04:24:01.806-07:00Sorry I don't know how to create a profile bef...Sorry I don't know how to create a profile before I post here, I am Mike Audet from Australia and have been a regular reader of Pyro for many months now. I wanted to ask Dan a question about how do get his book here? Do I have to use amazon or bookdepository? I'd rather see an evangelical distributor/publisher receive the funds but cannot seem to find one here yet. Any pointers or help would be wonderful.<br /><br />While I'm writing can I just quickly say how grateful I am for blogs like this and the people involved. I have been gradually made aware through John Macarthur's online ministry of how confused I was in charismatic christianity and sadly, was always told preachers like him were heretics and to "be careful" of his teaching. <br /><br />I lived in Florida for a few years and listened to a Moody affiliated radio station there which played a whole bunch of half-hour segments. Early on I still had problems listening to JM purely because of prior warnings, so I started with Erwin Lutzer and Alistair Begg. Then I started to give John another go and there was just a dramatic shift that occurred for me. <br /><br />The truth of God's word in the scriptures has been properly opened to me, I have been convicted of my selfish walk with the Lord and back here in Australia I download sermons and read your blogs for encouragement and greater understanding. Thanks so much for the time and love you devote to these conversations, they really do impact people like myself who always felt like an outsider because he couldn't speak in tongues and didn't get picked for prophetic words.<br /><br />Yours in Christ,<br />Mike Audet.Mike Audethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18177216102705794655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-19192537631561739502011-10-12T04:23:53.200-07:002011-10-12T04:23:53.200-07:00Well, let's start from the beginning.
If the ...Well, let's start from the beginning.<br /><br />If the metaphor is "the aftermarket of the Reformation,", then the OEM is the Reformation -- not the Gospel, not the Church, not God or Christ. You may or may not like that theologically, but my point was not theological but historical: unless there was a Reformation, there would be no Liberal "Evangelicals" running around -- they would all be classed as excommunicable heretics because they would be a bridge too far from a bridge too far.<br /><br />So my point in saying that about Perriman is that while he has a lot of loaded pistols toward the "blinkered" Reformed community, he owes them more than he can repay. His freedom even to disagree without being disabused of his property and (in some cases) his life seems to get overlooked as a very simple cause/effect relationship.<br /><br />Does that mean he can't logically disagree with Reformed people or confessions? No, it doesn't -- but when he approaches it the way, for example, Roger Olson approaches the Reformation and start saying all manner of unsupportable things about it in order to undo its effects so that he can prop up something else in its place, he forgets that without this system he couldn't stand up his organ to grind and set the monkey to dancing.<br /><br />So what he ought to do, in my view, is to put the Reformation in as <i>part of</i> his marketplace and see that it is the <i>culmination</i> of all his ancient sources -- not a rogue anomaly, not a red-light district. If he did that, and still disagreed, I'd say great -- let's talk about that. But instead we get the doctrinaire reviews like the one I referenced which can't even read the book properly -- let alone read history or causation of theological history properly.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-37648580168479468312011-10-11T22:00:32.261-07:002011-10-11T22:00:32.261-07:00Frank, yes, I read the Pyromaniacs blog from time ...Frank, yes, I read the Pyromaniacs blog from time to time. It's a bit of love-hate thing, but I enjoy the candour and forthrightness of the contributors.<br /><br />That's an interesting comment about living in the "generous aftermarket of the Reformation" but wanting to "undo or bankrupt the Original Equipment Manufacturer". In fact, it's an extraordinary comment. On the one hand, it implies that questioning the Reformation is to threaten the OEM. That is nonsense. On the other, it fails to take into account other generous markets modern scholarship has benefited from to a lesser or greater extent—including the church fathers, the eastern traditions, medieval scholasticism, anglicanism, the enlightenment, and modern historical scholarship.<br /><br />OK, I know you wouldn't be seen dead in those emporia, but the Reformed outlook, for all its undoubted strengths, is still very limited and frankly blinkered. It does not have a monopoly on the truth.<br /><br />And yes, I will say "no I didn't", because as I said in a response to Dan when he made the same point, I don't think the stuff missed out—the whole story of Israel—is merely optional for understanding the New Testament gospel. The gospel becomes something else—is certainly greatly diminished—when it is extracted from the narrative context in the way that is done in popular Reformed and much evangelical theology.<br /><br />I wrote the review in order to make the point that we can read the New Testament through the lens of a theology, such as Reformed theology, or we can read it historically. I think the theological lenses distort as much as they reveal. I think a narrative-historical hermeneutic gives us a much clearer picture of what is going, gets us much close to the mind of the OEM; and I don't think that we lose anything as evangelicals by taking this approach. I don't expect you to agree, but I would hope that you would see the point—I do not simply criticize the book for what it didn't do.<br /><br />Finally, if Googling Phillips and "Word-Tilting Gospel" comes up mainly with fans of the Pyromaniacs, what that tells us about the book, I suspect, is that people who disagree with it don't think it's worth reading or critiquing because they know they won't get a constructive response from either the players or the fan base. This whole business is much to partisan.Andrew Perrimanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16131308483959081297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-65794540451975092672011-10-11T20:43:47.138-07:002011-10-11T20:43:47.138-07:00Scooter - Are there plans for an audiobook? Having...Scooter - <i>Are there plans for an audiobook? Having Dan's sweet, melodic voice whisper the truths of Christianity is a deal too sweet to pass up.</i><br /><br />You're good.<br /><br />Oh, yes. You're good.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46421343618169818772011-10-11T13:50:38.215-07:002011-10-11T13:50:38.215-07:00I won it in a giveaway and just received it today!...I won it in a giveaway and just received it today!! I have to finish another book I am reading and then I will get started on it! I look forward to it!!! :)Katyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03118653637763160580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47181831268658135982011-10-11T13:12:56.710-07:002011-10-11T13:12:56.710-07:00The Sensei writes: So, Tom and Jugulum, if either ...The Sensei writes: <i>So, Tom and Jugulum, if either of you do read the entire book and then find that I ended up not having struck the Biblical balance (as Tom said), I would be interested in hearing about it.</i><br /><br />I've enjoyed reading the book so far. Lord willing, I'll try to finish it by the end of this week.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10934379903548711286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33821905859184044392011-10-11T13:12:49.234-07:002011-10-11T13:12:49.234-07:00Are there plans for an audiobook? Having Dan's...Are there plans for an audiobook? Having Dan's sweet, melodic voice whisper the truths of Christianity is a deal too sweet to pass up.<br /><br />< / brownie points>Scothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16573138499478048502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41681627554513210132011-10-11T13:07:23.029-07:002011-10-11T13:07:23.029-07:00Don:
again: yikes.Don:<br /><br />again: yikes.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21925515729953955852011-10-11T12:32:04.451-07:002011-10-11T12:32:04.451-07:00"...Oprah's of the Christian book world....."...Oprah's of the Christian book world..."<br /><br />In the best sense of Oprah of course. There is a best sense of Oprah?donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84124269576453163162011-10-11T12:22:25.234-07:002011-10-11T12:22:25.234-07:00Alas, I'm only a voice of one.
... but if ...Alas, I'm only a voice of one.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />... but if others wanted to suggest it ...JackWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16384160992033491748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66293959919544547112011-10-11T11:55:48.884-07:002011-10-11T11:55:48.884-07:00JackW:
If that were true, surely Challies would h...JackW:<br /><br />If that were true, surely Challies would have made much of it. <br /><br />.<br /><br />.<br /><br />.<br /><br />Right?FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85539383463758558042011-10-11T11:28:33.231-07:002011-10-11T11:28:33.231-07:00Some clever knave actually suggested TWTG as a sub...Some clever knave actually suggested TWTG as a subject on Challies' website and let him know it was free for a limited time only (now expired) on his favorite reading device.JackWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16384160992033491748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-14078383581308962822011-10-11T10:57:57.180-07:002011-10-11T10:57:57.180-07:00So, Tom and Jugulum, if either of you do read the ...So, Tom and Jugulum, if either of you do read the entire book and then find that I ended up not having struck the Biblical balance (as Tom said), I would be interested in hearing about it.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24291561266539163402011-10-11T10:55:11.378-07:002011-10-11T10:55:11.378-07:00Frank, you hit the nail on the head about what uni...Frank, you hit the nail on the head about what unifies <i>both</i> of Dan's books. His books aren't accessories to improve your Reformed street cred or dating potential. They're not soporific dead doctrine for seminary wonks.<br /><br />They're long letters from a pastor to people he really cares about. All that he leaves out is "write back as soon as you can and let me know what you're doing about what I've said."<br /><br />I'm praying about speeding my ladies' group,currently studying a somewhat dry commentary on the Westminster Confession, to TWTG. The women want to understand the difference between Amillenialism and Premillenialism. Meanwhile, the studies are somewhat chaotic because their collective little ones are undisciplined and out of control. TWTG will hopefully result in more tilting of their world, and less of my furniture. :)Rachael Starkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10781158372237369417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47993363882674727012011-10-11T10:53:50.767-07:002011-10-11T10:53:50.767-07:00Dan,
No, and if I had, I expect (from Mike's ...Dan,<br /><br />No, and if I had, I expect (from Mike's comment) that when I reached chapter 7, I'd have found the place where you <i>did</i> anticipate and satisfy Tom's request for nuance/clarity.<br /><br />A request which wasn't a request for pomo dumbing-down, as Mrs. Bones, Robert, and Phil took it.<br /><br />That distinction is the point I intended to make; if I implied that I agreed with Tom that you were unclear, I certainly didn't mean to.Jugulumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09932658890162312549noreply@blogger.com