tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post3497347070358634432..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Oh, and one more thing . . .Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger88125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-52175205585626142302009-11-19T21:33:35.456-08:002009-11-19T21:33:35.456-08:00It seems as though the nature of investment is los...It seems as though the nature of investment is lost on many. <br /><br />Business 101:<br /><br />The value of money is agreed upon based on the value of product. Nationally, this is called Gross National Product. For any particular business, the cost of a product is typically broken down into Material, Labor and Overhead (MLO). Labor is applied to Material through leadership and other support (Overhead) to create something is more valuable than the cost: price. The difference between cost and price is cal;led margin. But there's another cost that resides in company assets and fueled by interest that comes from margins. this cost is called capital. Capitol provides the foundational expenses that make the generation of wealth possible through LMO. Investment is the practice of providing capital. So without investment, there is no wealth created. the money made from this kind of investment is not at the expense of someone else. Instead, it fuels the creation of economic wealth by rewarding investors with some returns on their investment. This increases the value of the investment which is measured and disbursed to investors by means of stocks.<br /><br />One day trades by quickly buying and selling stocks that change value rapidly. They change value rapidly because people are trading them as though they are betting. One can make more money off of them, but at higher risk - not based on the actual performance of any company, but because investors are falsely led to believe a value is there that is not. I'm not in favor of this. It skews the market and changes the value of the stocks falsely.<br /><br />However, letting investment companies day trade as a part of any mix of 401K investments seems to not be unwise for returns. I don't know. I'm not convinced that they actually perform better over time, but investors seem more confident in other investments when they see a lot of day trading on any given day.<br /><br />So, in general the stock market isn't gambling. Wise investment is necessary for any economy. Unfortunately, people who don't have the means to invest come to despise the ones who do because they don't understand that those who have the means to invest are the ones who make it possible for them to have a productive job.<br /><br />And gambling? I have yet to see the appeal aside from competing for gain that comes from the monetary loss of others rather than contributing to their productive benefit.<br /><br />So the two are a world different. I apologize if this rather belongs in the comments from the last article in this series where I thought this was clarified, but it seems to keep coming up and I don't see where some have "got it" yet.Jim Pembertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446388434272680014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33158463782359299272009-11-19T21:19:00.968-08:002009-11-19T21:19:00.968-08:00TUaD earlier today:
"...your "essential ...TUaD earlier today:<br /><i>"...your "essential groundwork" is not sufficient enough (yet) for you to build your building/argument/case on."</i><br /><br />TUaD now:<br /><i>"You say your definitions and distinctions are fine as they are. Okay then..."</i><br /><br />Are you conceding that you never really put forth <i>anything</i> to substantiate the earlier claim?Andrew Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13325110133957216983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26997504053166851712009-11-19T21:16:12.510-08:002009-11-19T21:16:12.510-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Andrew Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13325110133957216983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82896544724059261922009-11-19T20:51:12.137-08:002009-11-19T20:51:12.137-08:00Jug - Yep, that's the idea. Not an original id...Jug - Yep, that's the idea. Not an original idea with me. I took it straight out of the first post.<br /><br />Not sure how what you described qualifies as a "stake".<br /><br />Definition (from the 2nd post):<br />"A stake is a prize one person stands to gain through the loss of others."Andrew Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13325110133957216983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47493475131662403462009-11-19T20:14:39.364-08:002009-11-19T20:14:39.364-08:00TUaD,
When I invest in the stock market, I'm ...TUaD,<br /><br />When I invest in the stock market, I'm hoping to make money. The beauty of the stock market is that I do not have to take someone else's money to make money. The other beauty is that it seems abundantly evident in he Bible that he trading of commodities is a legitimate way to earn a living.Brad Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00197301845256854051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77683619543848960262009-11-19T19:41:00.953-08:002009-11-19T19:41:00.953-08:00Jugulum: "The conversation got here because ...<b>Jugulum</b>: <i>"The conversation got here because Phil's argument depends on the question, "What's going on in your heart & motivations such that the game needs money?" Precisely there is where he sees the violation of biblical principle."</i><br /><br />With regards to that question, one can play the stock market for free (click <a href="http://www.stocks-game.com/" rel="nofollow">here</a> for an example). So what's going on in people's hearts and motivations such that they want to play the stock market with real money instead of for free?<br /><br />Phil Johnson,<br /><br />You say you're not evading. I'm still waiting.<br /><br />You say your definitions and distinctions are fine as they are. Okay then, let's hear your answers.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46271765085186552422009-11-19T19:38:09.503-08:002009-11-19T19:38:09.503-08:00"To covet is to desire inordinately, to place..."To covet is to desire inordinately, to place the object of desire before love and devotion to God." <br /><br />With all due respect to Tyndale Bible Dictionary, I'm pretty sure that the 10th commandment makes it clear that coveting is simply wishing and wanting something that does not belong to you.<br /><br /><br />I've never understood the money angle either. <br />My family is competitive to the point of not being able to play some games together. We've never played for money, never needed to.<br /><br />"It's not the same without money" sounds like a red herring to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-833056104640106642009-11-19T19:31:59.676-08:002009-11-19T19:31:59.676-08:00Andrew,
So, you think the thrill is pursuit of ot...Andrew,<br /><br />So, you think the thrill is pursuit of others' possessions.<br /><br />Meaning, you think the thrill wouldn't be there for Tom if he put up all the money for the stake himself?Jugulumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09932658890162312549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41420644001395791472009-11-19T18:35:52.564-08:002009-11-19T18:35:52.564-08:00Tom,
If you read the post "Definitions and Di...Tom,<br />If you read the post "Definitions and Distinctions" you will find that you are using your own definition of "stake".<br /><br />That is okay and I would guess that your thoughts are internally coherent, but you must adopt the definition put forth by Phil if you want to have meaningful interaction. <br /><br />E.G. You cited keeping score in basketball as a "low stakes" game. There are no stakes in such a game.<br /><br />If you actually meant to say, "Why should anyone be surprised that <i>wagering money</i> on a game generates excitement?"... well that is not surprising at all.<br /><br />The pursuit of others' possessions has inspired many. Nothing new there.Andrew Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13325110133957216983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28402981575713664022009-11-19T17:24:40.351-08:002009-11-19T17:24:40.351-08:00I don't gamble for money, but I am a pretty bi...I don't gamble for money, but I am a pretty big board game player.<br /><br />I am confused about one argument here. I see people asking why playing poker for money is more exciting than chips. And they ask that in a bit of an incredulous fashion.<br /><br />But the simple truth is, that when the stakes are raised, games become more intense - which is more fun for most people.<br /><br />That's why we keep score in a basketball game - shooting around is fun, but the competition is even greater. And when a trophy is on the line, then it's even more intense and fun for some people.<br /><br />For me, the less the stakes are, the more fun I have. But I do recognize that a lot of people love it when games feel more tense.Tom Vaselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16250503666735578852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48390356227143094152009-11-19T16:58:15.663-08:002009-11-19T16:58:15.663-08:00Johnny, that wasn't a ploy. I was referring t...Johnny, that wasn't a ploy. I was referring to what followed <a href="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2009/11/oh-and-one-more-thing.html#500569876652661510" rel="nofollow">this one</a>--where you decided that we reached an impasse because I don't know backgammon.<br /><br />I tried probing & comparing, but you still think nothing more can be said in this area without understand the details of backgammon. That's what I meant.<br /><br /><br />You really think it's not relevant? The conversation got here because Phil's argument depends on the question, "What's going on in your heart & motivations such that the game needs money?" Precisely there is where he sees the violation of biblical principle. You're saying that in backgammon, money is the only thing that gives the right kind of motivation to prevent frivolous playing.<br /><br />You don't see how this line of examination is relevant?Jugulumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09932658890162312549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69510674037403661842009-11-19T16:27:09.135-08:002009-11-19T16:27:09.135-08:00Jug, dont use that ploy. I did try to respond seve...Jug, dont use that ploy. I did try to respond several times. It wasn't a "don't want to respond." That demeans what I thought was a real exchange. Very sorry to see that. <br /><br />You admit you don't know backgammon and I think that's the problem.<br /><br />But it is also quite irrelevant to the main discussion: is this playing for pennies sinful per se? No.James Scott Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07641370124346172648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77632999405710881762009-11-19T16:16:08.218-08:002009-11-19T16:16:08.218-08:00Phil writes:
"But surely it's significan...Phil writes:<br /><br />"But surely it's significant that all the commenters so far who are defending gambling have been almost wholly concerned with the issue of whether they themselves are injured if they lose--and they have seemed blissfully unconcerned about the effect of their gambling on those who lose when they win."<br /><br />Actually I responded a while back to some posts by NOTW and apparently the blog software ate it (or you just haven't approved the post yet). In that response, I laid out what I view as some guidelines (perhaps not exhaustive) for situations where I agree that gambling would be sinful. One of those covered the situation where you enable someone (by consenting to gamble with him) to risk something he can't afford to lose.buddyglasshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08482253774835776080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84603992740191505322009-11-19T16:06:17.623-08:002009-11-19T16:06:17.623-08:00I tried approaching it from the perspective, "...I tried approaching it from the perspective, "Do you agree that in other games, ____ is what makes people take it seriously?", and you don't want to engage even there--so I guess if you don't want to respond, there's nothing more to do.Jugulumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09932658890162312549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-14591562759381859412009-11-19T15:58:03.851-08:002009-11-19T15:58:03.851-08:00It's just not the same thing as in other games...It's just not the same thing as in other games, Jug. I'll have to leave it at that, because we're artificially running this meta up to 100!James Scott Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07641370124346172648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-60884134789321809852009-11-19T15:39:23.049-08:002009-11-19T15:39:23.049-08:00Johnny,
I apologize, I just noticed that you did ...Johnny,<br /><br />I apologize, I just noticed that you did say "backgammon" when you were talking about rolling. I knew that you had been talking about backgammon earlier, but somehow I missed it in that post. *sigh*<br /><br /><br />It's scoring and competition that keeps things "real" in other games, right? But there's something about backgammon that makes the principle not apply? <br /><br />Well... What if you played backgammon with chips, instead, using them to keep score? If "worthless" points are enough to keep the game "real" in other games, why wouldn't that principle apply here? That would be the incentive not to keep rolling till they get the miracle roll; they only have a limited number of points.Jugulumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09932658890162312549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33007661131963152382009-11-19T15:25:00.860-08:002009-11-19T15:25:00.860-08:00Jug, i don't play any other game for money, ev...Jug, i don't play any other game for money, even pennies. I don't know of any other game analogous to backgammon.James Scott Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07641370124346172648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40135032917691008902009-11-19T15:23:03.889-08:002009-11-19T15:23:03.889-08:00Johnny Dialectic: "To accuse of sin where th...<b>Johnny Dialectic</b>: "<i>To accuse of sin where there is no sin is also a very serious matter. Tread lightly.</i>"<br /><br />I agree. Isn't that what the Pharisees did to Jesus? And didn't Jesus rebuke them harshly for it?<br /><br />Phil Johnson,<br /><br />Out of curiosity, are you consulting with your Pyromaniac co-bloggers to answer my questions or can you just answer my questions on your own without their input?Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22869564226603159512009-11-19T14:45:51.381-08:002009-11-19T14:45:51.381-08:00Ah, backgammon. No, I don't know the game. A...Ah, backgammon. No, I don't know the game. Aside from that:<br /><br />"So why isn't that an issue in a game like spades?<br /><br />Are there any games that you ever play with friends where you don't play for small stakes? When are the stakes necessary to make people take it seriously, and what makes the difference?"Jugulumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09932658890162312549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-5005698766526615102009-11-19T14:42:42.996-08:002009-11-19T14:42:42.996-08:00You'll have to study, and perhaps learn backga...You'll have to study, and perhaps learn backgammon to understand. Sorry I can't make it clear.James Scott Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07641370124346172648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20672283311652438802009-11-19T14:40:47.068-08:002009-11-19T14:40:47.068-08:00So why isn't that an issue in a game like spad...So why isn't that an issue in a game like spades?<br /><br />Are there any games that you ever play with friends where you <i>don't</i> play for small stakes? When are the stakes necessary to make people take it seriously, and what makes the difference?<br /><br />I'm not sure what kind of game you're talking about. Keep rolling until you get a winning role? I guess that could apply to craps, or roulette. But how does it apply to games with competition?Jugulumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09932658890162312549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-91392018782721802572009-11-19T14:28:33.674-08:002009-11-19T14:28:33.674-08:00Hi Jug. I re-read Phil's comment, the one you ...Hi Jug. I re-read Phil's comment, the one you linked to, and it's still Phil inserting "covetousness" into the activity (the shoehorn) and I still reject this assertion. The "taking of" a small amount from a voluntary participant is not covetousness. <br /><br />And let's not devalue the word (covet) by applying it so blithely. That dishonors Scripture, too. The Bible uses this word as a serious sin. "To covet is to desire inordinately, to place the object of desire before love and devotion to God." (Tyndale Bible Dictionary). <br /><br />That is so far from what is going on in the petty games discussed that it is true intellectual folly, if not downright debasement, to argue that way. <br /><br />To accuse of sin where there is no sin is also a very serious matter. Tread lightly.<br /><br />By "just luck" what I mean is that, in backgammon, there's always a chance the dice will get someone out of a losing position. The stakes are there to make the player "pay" for that. Otherwise, he can play to the end in the hopes he gets that miracle roll. The use of the doubling cube is there for this purpose. <br /><br />You know what? It's just plain fun. And those who voluntarily play the game are having fun, too. I've yet to be convinced that this activity is inherently or indirectly sinful. And from the way the comments have been going today, I'd say the "odds" are against it happening.James Scott Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07641370124346172648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-90876746539832503112009-11-19T13:57:56.697-08:002009-11-19T13:57:56.697-08:00Johnny,
Be a bit more temperate, please. Phil di...Johnny,<br /><br />Be a bit more temperate, please. Phil didn't shoehorn covetousness by ipse dixit; he <a href="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2009/11/oh-and-one-more-thing.html#c4665067686460764142" rel="nofollow">argued it here</a>. (And his major argument is coming, as everyone keeps noting.)<br /><br />Even if you think the <a href="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2009/11/oh-and-one-more-thing.html#c6756192148598185788" rel="nofollow">answer you eventually gave</a> is adequate and Phil's <a href="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2009/11/oh-and-one-more-thing.html#c4735834138242534289" rel="nofollow">response</a> lacks insight, don't rewrite the history of the conversation.<br /><br /><br />But as to your answer... I don't understand what you mean by "it's just luck".<br /><br />By the way, have you ever played spades? I haven't generally found that penny stakes are necessary to make people take the bidding seriously. Honestly, my family is too prone to be competitive even there!<br /><br />Of course, I've played with a few people who were exceptions. They were casual; the points didn't mean anything to them; they weren't competitive. And that affected their playing style. I'd be more inclined to do penny stakes in that situation.<br /><br />Phil thinks covetousness is at the root of what makes us start taking it seriously. What do you think? Is it more about <i>defending</i> your pennies than acquiring them? (That wouldn't be coveting, but it could still be greed/materialism.)Jugulumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09932658890162312549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63923916080874731782009-11-19T13:47:46.963-08:002009-11-19T13:47:46.963-08:00*ahem* not sure why i spelt "nickel" as ...*ahem* not sure why i spelt "nickel" as <i>"nickle"</i> so many times. <br /><br />man that is embarassing! I promise I spell better than that in real life. hehAndrew Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13325110133957216983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66419273082494157392009-11-19T13:44:34.336-08:002009-11-19T13:44:34.336-08:00Have any of the "small stakes" gambling ...Have any of the "small stakes" gambling defenders yet explained specifically why they must play with nickles vs. chips?<br /><br />Why is playing for nickles entertaining, but not chips?<br /><br />Someone said without playing for nickles, it's just "luck". Why? If you limit the number of chips at the beginning of the game, all "entertaining strategies" should be just as challenging and thrilling, right?<br /><br />What am I missing?Andrew Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13325110133957216983noreply@blogger.com