tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post35082375834308623..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Cessationism againPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger155125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82805014213015192652014-06-07T11:51:52.861-07:002014-06-07T11:51:52.861-07:00Anthony --
I always enjoy the objection that some...Anthony --<br /><br />I always enjoy the objection that somehow the Cessationist is hung up on "experiences," and then we are admonished to simply have the experiences the Bible says we ought to be having since there's no expiration date for Apostolic special effects in the NT (you know: unless we take phrases like "and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles" in Acts 2:43b at face value, which points out that it's the Apostles who were doing signs and wonders, not just random people).<br /><br />But, since I do enjoy it so much, here's the rejoinder:<br /><br />1. I concede that the NT does not have an expiration date for the Sign gifts -- those things called "signs and wonders."<br /><br />2. You have made the case that they are necessary for the life of the church until Christ returns. I concede that.<br /><br />3. Here are my questions, now that I have given up cessationism:<br /><br />--- What are these gifts necessary for? That is, in good sola Scriptura form, what must they be used for in the life of the church? Where does the NT instruct us to use them as you describe?<br /><br />--- Because they are necessary for the things you will undoubtedly list, why doesn't the Charismatic church use them for these purposes? That is: why is the church still plagued with these problems if there's a part of the church which has the solution?<br /><br />Looking forward to your response.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-6350129229858044142014-06-06T16:15:37.141-07:002014-06-06T16:15:37.141-07:00You shouldn't need experience to validate the ...You shouldn't need experience to validate the word of God. In the end, all discussions on Benny Hinn and perceived charismatic hysteria, count for nothing. We should never lower the word of God to the level of our personal experience - for example, you wouldn't deny the doctrine of hell because you haven't experienced it or seen a credible report of an experience of it.<br /><br />The issue is this - does the word of God teach the cessation of the gifts with the death of the apostles or the completion of the canon of scripture, as cessationists believe? Or does it teach they will no longer be necessary with the return of Christ or the new heavens and the new earth, when everyone agrees they will no longer be required? <br /><br />The fact cessationists appeal so much to experience, or lack of it, likely reveals that deep down they do not have confidence in their biblical exegesis when it comes to cessationism. And they would be right not to have confidence in it, as it requires some serious intellectual gymnastics to make the Bible say what they claim it teaches on this subject. There is only one passage, in 1 Cor. 13, that mentions the cessation of any gifts, and the context clearly points to the new heavens and the new earth, as being the time of completion and full revelation, when healing, prophecy etc are no longer required. A flick back to 1 Cor. 1:7, where Paul commends the Corinthians for walking in the gifts ahead of Christ's appearing, makes this even clearer, though it's clear enough in 1 Cor. 13 too.<br /><br />If you are sola-scriptura, believe what the word of God clearly says.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11121882028595439967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16427702144287169002010-02-19T07:34:06.097-08:002010-02-19T07:34:06.097-08:00To Zack
To rely on a "Statement of Faith"...To Zack<br />To rely on a "Statement of Faith" contained on a website is dangerous. It may say something about what's 'inside', but it is only words until you have the opportunity to really study and compare their teaching AND behaviour against Scripture; the ultimate litmus test.<br />For example my wife and i are blessed to receive via internet or cable the preaching of a number of "your" USA teachers (MacArthur, Lutzer, de Waay, Jeremiah et al). What is common to all of these? Not just a statement of faith but a visible WALK of faith; in other words their lifestyle and character measure up.<br />I am looking forward to hear Phil expound the gospel eruditely and clearly at the Shepherd's conference due to be held at my church in Cape Town (South Africa) in May/June later this year (2010).<br />Benny Hinn has not healed a single person in his life, but he has economically raped thousands upon thousands of gullible, poor Africans over many years. It's a glib story. "Look what i've got!! So pay me and the more you pay me, the more you'll get." Guess what? Who gets richer and who gets poorer?<br />Now i do not seem to recall hearing anything like that from the solid guys you have over there like John MacArthur.<br />Go figure.<br />And yes, i too pray for Benny; surely there is a God-image human underneath all the huff and puff. be saved Benny and leave the miracles to soli Deo.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13905000838355882319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8600637681677344752008-03-26T18:11:00.000-07:002008-03-26T18:11:00.000-07:00What do the cessationists here think of Kathryn Ku...What do the cessationists here think of Kathryn Kuhlman? I bought a book called Real Miracles that has strong documentation she consistently performed healing miracles like those in the NT.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14871265628418270341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-70167419110346056482007-11-06T07:54:00.000-08:002007-11-06T07:54:00.000-08:00Wow! Thanks for being so clear. Keep on keeping on...Wow! Thanks for being so clear. Keep on keeping on!David H. Willishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11542625289570281431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1085379747615772362007-08-08T10:47:00.000-07:002007-08-08T10:47:00.000-07:00Hey there, Phil - I think I met you, with James Wh...Hey there, Phil - I think I met you, with James White, at the Toledo Reformed Theological conference some years back: "Hello again!"<BR/><BR/>Anyway, that's just to say that, as a 'Reformed Charismatic' Christian I can find very little to disagree with in your criticism here. This blog exchange is one of your best. Keep up the good work.<BR/><BR/>blessingsShannonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04401200438377027898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-4707281200520195662007-07-24T23:04:00.000-07:002007-07-24T23:04:00.000-07:00Thanks Daryl,I will stand on my belief that it was...Thanks Daryl,<BR/><BR/>I will stand on my belief that it was one of those very, very, very, very few times that the Lord answered prayer and NOT go the way of the "Prophetic/Charismatic" movements of today.<BR/><BR/>I appreciate the comments...Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16752301753186338309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-7607973333210256302007-07-24T13:48:00.000-07:002007-07-24T13:48:00.000-07:00By the way...Abba is Hebrew...maybe it was bad piz...By the way...Abba is Hebrew...maybe it was bad pizza...Darylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01296029404229769941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16237741307982659512007-07-24T13:47:00.000-07:002007-07-24T13:47:00.000-07:00Tim...As has been mentioned before, the cessationi...Tim...<BR/><BR/>As has been mentioned before, the cessationist position does not deny (in fact, as I understand it, it emphatically endorses) the fact that God answers prayer. What it addresses is the apostolic sign gifts which would probably entail you walking into the asthmatics room and saying "In Jesus Name, Arise" and then going off and doing that somewhere else. As I'm sure you can tell, there is a significant difference there.<BR/><BR/>As far as your tongues speaking experience, excellent question...no idea.<BR/><BR/>Yesm God does miracle in response to prayer but we're talking about the Peter & John in the temple kind of thing.Darylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01296029404229769941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10482648784939415962007-07-20T17:17:00.000-07:002007-07-20T17:17:00.000-07:00Let me correct something here. Maybe it was more l...Let me correct something here. Maybe it was more like Greek, hence the word Abba.<BR/><BR/>I also had an experience one time that I prayed over a person who had terrible asthma for several years (20+). As I prayed for her, her short breathing became deep and what I would call normal. She later saw me and said that she had gone to the doctor and verified that she was healed. How do I not consider that a reality. Unfortunantely, I did not know her name or ever see her again, so as usual I cannot verify it except that aothers had been there and seen what looked like a healing through the Holy Spirit and we give God all the credit. Noting I can do. Now what, do I need to reconsider that this didn't really happen?Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16752301753186338309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47631801344806955352007-07-20T17:10:00.000-07:002007-07-20T17:10:00.000-07:00I noticed on the thread that there was much spoken...I noticed on the thread that there was much spoken about in the area of tongues. Does this experience sound real or do you think it was bad pizza. The scenario;<BR/><BR/>My wife and I had just visited her mother in the hospital. First time she had ever had to go into this kind of a medical situation which included surgery.<BR/><BR/>We went home and prayed for her (mom that is) and in the middle of the prayer my wife said she had three words in her head that she never had heard before. They were (mind you my wife was deeply worried for her mom) "truestucio erie abba". We had not been apart of this "tongue talking" stuff before. I immediately felt that what she had spoken was some type of Latin and felt that the interpretation was "Trust the Father." We immediatly thanked God because we felt the Holy Spirit had spoken a word to us for comfort and so that we would not be anxious over this situation. What do you think? Bad pizza or a possibel true tongue with interpretation. It has never happened since.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16752301753186338309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62392586412181189382007-07-18T20:44:00.000-07:002007-07-18T20:44:00.000-07:00Sometimes people get better when I pray for them. ...Sometimes people get better when I pray for them. Mostly I don't remember any specific immediate miracles or dramatic instances. Here's some. Once my mom couldn't get her wedding ring back on after she took it off, because her hands had swollen, so I prayed for her and the swelling went down. Once, Derek Prince was teaching on healing and doing "leg lengthening", which brother Prince thought was pretty eccentric himself, but the length of people's legs were changing when he prayed for them, and then they would be in an existential place with God having gotten their attention. Well, the night was going well and a lot of us in the sponsoring church were enlisted in praying, and when we (including me) would pray for people, they would get "leg lenthening." I know, beats me. Afterward, I drove someone home, and told the friends back at that dorm about it, and then I prayed for that person too, and the same thing happened there.<BR/><BR/>Once when my wife was driving friends to a Bill Gothard seminar in Detroit, in a thunderstorm, the car started to slide on the road, and someone grabbed the steering wheel and helped straighten it out. Afterward, she tried to thank whoever in the car reached up, and no one had done it. I'm guessing it was an angel. No, really.<BR/><BR/>I've done a few exorcisms and watched several that seemed pretty unusual and real. And been where there were a bunch of not-so-real-seeming ones. <BR/><BR/>Once there was a fire nearby and I prayed that if it would help, would God send rain? Thunderstorm soon arrived, in a few minutes. <BR/><BR/>About bad things happening among the charismatic wings, I don't think that we have any monopoly on weirdness or abusiveness, or false doctrine. There's plenty of calvinistic baptist charismatics in my circles, and among my bible-preaching reformed cessationists friends, there's a lot of feminist-heading-to-liberal-night-terrors going on. (Check out the Calvin College website, say.)<BR/><BR/>About my own lack of sanctification, I can't really tell how much is due to being under this kind of teaching, and how much is due to me being "me."<BR/>Oh, and lots and lots of people in hospitals DO have people pray for them, and people DO get better, sometimes dramatically. Imagine here a hospital admissions guy snapping his fingers, all right people, we don't have all day, let's get the bed filled up with the next shift.Brucehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05791587899672940996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61345592560365010082007-07-16T15:41:00.000-07:002007-07-16T15:41:00.000-07:00*wordsmith reaches for the barf bag*Thanks, I need...*wordsmith reaches for the barf bag*<BR/><BR/>Thanks, I needed a little levity.<BR/><BR/>You're spot on Steve. I'm done.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53515952843200206442007-07-16T12:32:00.000-07:002007-07-16T12:32:00.000-07:00Benny Hinn's ministry is a near copy of the minist...<I>Benny Hinn's ministry is a near copy of the ministry of Jesus Christ when He walked this earth.<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>*wordsmith reaches for the barf bag*wordsmithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13694767852556204886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45222505057623523412007-07-16T11:03:00.000-07:002007-07-16T11:03:00.000-07:00Donsands,You're wasting your time brother. Zack's ...Donsands,<BR/><BR/>You're wasting your time brother. Zack's main source of authority is experience, not Scripture.<BR/><BR/>regards,<BR/>SteveSteve Lammhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06994451968247281749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-29926451543914024722007-07-16T11:02:00.000-07:002007-07-16T11:02:00.000-07:00God will not judge a minister based merely upon hi...God will not judge a minister based merely upon his published doctrinal statement, but by the content of what of what he teaches as a matter of practice. On this account, Hinn fails miserably.Steve Lammhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06994451968247281749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-11570020320191153452007-07-16T03:55:00.000-07:002007-07-16T03:55:00.000-07:00Zack,I'm not being arrogant. If you really want to...Zack,<BR/><BR/>I'm not being arrogant. If you really want to know the truth, then you will check out what others know about Hinn.<BR/><BR/>There is a lot of material out there on this false teacher. And with Google you can find it, if you want to.<BR/><BR/>He has been exposed over and over as a someone who loves money. <BR/><BR/>He stays in hotel rooms that cost $10,000 a night. He buys himself a jet with money he pleads for from people, and says I'll write your name in the cockpit of his airplane that's going to save souls for Jesus.<BR/><BR/>This guy needs to repent.<BR/><BR/>He says that jesus died and went to hell, and he was born again in hell. And that when we are born again we become Christ.<BR/><BR/>He says there are 9 persons of the God head.<BR/><BR/>He teaches a false gospel of Jesus died for your bank account.<BR/><BR/>He lied over and over again. He prophecied falsely over and over.<BR/><BR/>I pray for this man. I don't want to see him die in his sin.<BR/>But if he doesn't repent, then he will have to answer for all his deceptions.<BR/><BR/>Like I said zack, if you really want to know you will find out.<BR/>The truth about him isn't that hard to find.<BR/><BR/>May the Lord lead you away from these false teachers, who pervert the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3435319356235117592007-07-16T03:06:00.000-07:002007-07-16T03:06:00.000-07:00I'm sorry. I couldn't resist."These men are false ...I'm sorry. I couldn't resist.<BR/><BR/>"<I>These men are false teachers. They are enemies of the Cross.</I>" -donsands<BR/><BR/><B>Benny Hinn Ministries Statement of Faith:</B><BR/><BR/><B>::quote::</B><BR/><BR/>We Believe<BR/><BR/>1. The Bible is the inspired Word of God, a revelation from God to mankind, the infallible rule of faith and conduct, and is superior to conscience and reason, but not contrary to reason (2 Timothy 3:15-16; 1 Peter 2:2).<BR/><BR/>2. The one true God has revealed Himself as the eternally self-existent, self-revealed "I AM" and has further revealed Himself as embodying the principles of relationship and association, i.e., Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (Deuteronomy 6:4; Mark 12:29; Isaiah 43:10, 11; Matthew 28:19).<BR/><BR/>3. That man was created good and upright, for God said "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." But man, by voluntary transgression, fell, and his only hope of redemption is in Jesus Christ the Son of God (Genesis 1:26-31: 3:1-7; Romans 5:12-21).<BR/><BR/>4. The grace of God, which brings salvation, has appeared to all men, through the preaching of repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ; man is saved by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, and, being justified by grace through faith, he becomes an heir of God according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 2:11; Romans 10:13-15; Luke 23:47; Titus 3:5-7). The "inward" evidence to the believer of his salvation is the direct witness of the Spirit (Romans 8:16). The "outward" evidence of his salvation to all men is a life of righteousness and true holiness.<BR/><BR/>5. The ordinance of baptism by a burial with Christ should be observed as commanded in the Scriptures, by all who have repented and in their hearts have truly believed in Christ as Savior and Lord. In so doing, they have the body washed in pure water as an outward symbol of cleansing, while their heart has already been sprinkled with the blood of Christ as an inner cleansing. Thus, they declare to the world that they have died with Jesus and that they have also been raised with Him to walk in newness of life (Matthew 28:19; Acts 10:47-48; Romans 6:4; Acts 20:21; Hebrews 10:22).<BR/><BR/>6. The Lord's Supper, consisting of the elements, bread and the fruit of the vine, is the symbol expressing our sharing the divine nature of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:4), a memorial of His suffering and death (1 Corinthians 11:26). It is enjoined on all believers "until He comes."<BR/><BR/>7. That all believers are entitled to, and should ardently expect, and earnestly seek, the promise of the Father, the baptism in the Holy Ghost and fire, according to the command of our Lord Jesus Christ. This was the normal experience of all in the early Christian church. With it comes the enduement of power for life and service, the bestowment of the gifts and their uses in the work of the ministry (Luke 24:29; Acts 1:4; 1:8; 1 Corinthians 12:1-31). This wonderful experience is distinct from and subsequent to the experience of the new birth (Acts 10:44-46; 11:14-16; 15:7-9).<BR/><BR/>8. In the baptism of believers as a unique work of the Holy Ghost—an evidence of which is the speaking with other tongues as the Spirit of God gives them utterance (Acts 2:4). The manifestation of speaking in other tongues, in this instance, is the same in essence as the gift of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:4-10, 28) but different in purpose and use.<BR/><BR/>9. The Scriptures teach a life of holiness without which no man shall see the Lord. By the power of the Holy Ghost we are able to obey the command, "Be ye holy, for I am holy." Entire sanctification is the will of God for all believers, and should be earnestly pursued by walking in obedience to God's Word (Hebrews 12:14; 1 Peter 1:15-16; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 1 John 2:6).<BR/><BR/>10. The church is the body of Christ, the habitation of God through the Spirit with divine appointments for the fulfillment of the great commission. Each believer, born of the Spirit, is an integral part of the church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven (Ephesians 1:22-23; 2:22; Hebrews 12:33).<BR/><BR/>11. A divinely called and scripturally ordained ministry has been provided by our Lord for a twofold purpose: The evangelization of the world, and the edifying of the Body of Christ (Mark 16:15-20; Ephesians 4:11-13).<BR/><BR/>12. Deliverance from sickness is provided for in the atonement and is the privilege of all believers (Isaiah 53:4-5; Matthew 8:16-17).<BR/><BR/>13. The resurrection of those who have fallen asleep in Christ and their translation, together with those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, is the imminent and blessed hope of the church (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Titus 2:12; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; Romans 8:23).<BR/><BR/>14. The revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ from heaven, the salvation of national Israel, and the Millennial reign of Christ on earth is the Scriptural promise and the world's hope (2 Thessalonians 1:17; Revelation 19:11-14; Romans 11:26-27; Revelation 20:1-7).<BR/><BR/>15. The devil and his angels, the beast and the false prophet, and whosoever is not found written in the Book of Life, shall be consigned to everlasting punishment in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death (Revelation 19:20; Revelation 20:10-15).<BR/><BR/>16. "According to His promise, look for new heavens, and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness" (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1).<BR/><BR/><B>::end quote::</B><BR/><BR/>How many of those do you disagree with, Don?<BR/><BR/>I'm guessing two, maaaaybe three (7,8,12).<BR/><BR/>Turns our those three things are the things we've been talking about.<BR/><BR/>If by that Benny Hinn is a heretic, false preacher, what have you, then you've just labeled nearly half of the Body of Christ the same.<BR/><BR/>Way to go.<BR/><BR/>I can tell you right now. Benny Hinn is no "enemy to the Cross."<BR/><BR/>His ministry is very Christ centered, and very SOUL centered.<BR/><BR/>How many people have you led to Christ, Don?<BR/><BR/>I don't want to get into comparisons as it is wrong, but how do your numbers stack up to his or the likes of Reinhard Bonnke?<BR/><BR/>I'm guessing they don't stack up very well.<BR/><BR/>If I'm wrong I apologize.<BR/><BR/>"<I>Jesus said there would be deceivers. We need to be aware of people like Hinn. The whole Word of Faith movement preaches a perverted gospel, and a different Jesus.</I>" -donsands<BR/><BR/>Yes he did. What if you are one of them? You don't feel ashamed to point that finger at Hinn. Mayne I'll point that finger at you. <BR/><BR/><B>You are a false teacher, Don.</B><BR/><BR/>Now do I believe that?<BR/><BR/>No.<BR/><BR/>You've done a fine job of glorifying Christ...as far as I can tell.<BR/><BR/>Lay off the "h" bomb, Dan.<BR/><BR/>The Word of Faith movement does not preach a different Jesus.<BR/><BR/>"<I>Check with Christian Research Institute if you really want to know the truth.</I>" -donsands<BR/><BR/>The <I>Christian Research Institute</I> was founded by a Pentecostal, was it not?<BR/><BR/>I searched their site and couldn't find much. It was rather difficult to navigate. That site could use a redesign.<BR/><BR/>"<I>if you really want to know the truth.</I>" -donsands<BR/><BR/>How incredibly arrogant of you.<BR/><BR/>"<I>these men who twist the truth for their own gain.</I>" -donsands<BR/><BR/>Their own gain? You mean like the millions upon millions of souls they've led into the Kingdom of Heaven. Or are you talking about the incredible price they've paid to walk in the power they walk in to feed the poor and heal the sick?<BR/><BR/>From what I can see...<BR/><BR/>Benny Hinn's ministry is a near copy of the ministry of Jesus Christ when He walked this earth.<BR/><BR/>You can debate all day long about how a person can't have the gift of healing or that whatever other gift is not for today, but these men do those things. I do those things.<BR/><BR/>No matter how much "logic" you try to throw at me or anyone else who has experienced God to this extent will budge. They know what God did. They were there!<BR/><BR/>Open your eyes, Don!<BR/><BR/>All of you! Open your eyes!<BR/><BR/>There is so much more to this Kingdom thing than salvation.<BR/><BR/>God's plan of salvation was a means to an end...not the end itself.<BR/><BR/>Wake up!<BR/><BR/>May the Lord our God manifest Himself mightily to you. Awaken the groan, God! Increase our hunger, Lord!<BR/><BR/>We want you, Lord. We want you, we want you, we want you!<BR/><BR/>In His glorious and wonderful name,<BR/><BR/>Amen.<BR/><BR/>in love,<BR/>>>zackZack Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17624381145188381774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89336469983338415182007-07-15T14:20:00.000-07:002007-07-15T14:20:00.000-07:00What is this “genuine?” But based on what I know t...What is this “genuine?” But based on what I know to be a preacher...yes.<BR/><BR/>These men are false teachers. They are enemies of the Cross.<BR/><BR/>Zack,<BR/>Jesus said there would be deceivers. We need to be aware of people like Hinn. The whole Word of Faith movement preaches a perverted gospel, and a different Jesus.<BR/><BR/>Check with Christian Research Institute if you really want to know the truth.<BR/>They have documented false teachings, saying, prophecies, and even more crazy stuff these false tecahers have done.<BR/><BR/>Lord bless you, and help you see the truth about these men who twist the truth for their own gain. Amen.<BR/><BR/>ps There certainly are Charismatic brothers who believe in the gifts that i repect greatly.<BR/>CJ Mahaney, Wayne Grudem, and Calvary Chapel, and even Jesus People USA.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22712321404165854472007-07-14T22:50:00.000-07:002007-07-14T22:50:00.000-07:00For some reason the link in my previous post isn't...For some reason the link in my previous post isn't connecting. I'll quote the passage here for you.<BR/><BR/>::begin quote::<BR/><BR/>GOD IS BIGGER THAN HIS BOOK<BR/><BR/>“You are wrong because you know neither the Scriptures nor God’s power.”15<BR/><BR/>In this passage Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for their ignorance of the Scriptures and God’s power. His rebuke comes within the context of marriage and resurrection, but is aimed at the ignorance infecting every area of their lives.<BR/><BR/>What was the cause? They didn’t allow the Scriptures to lead them to God. They didn’t understand…not really understand. The word know in this passage speaks of “personal experience.” They tried to learn apart from such an experience. They were the champions of those who spent time studying God’s Word. But their study didn’t lead them to an encounter with God. It became an end in itself.<BR/><BR/>The Holy Spirit is the dunamis of heaven. An encounter with God is often a power encounter. Such encounters vary from person to person according to God’s design. And it’s the lack of power encounters that lead to a misunderstanding of God and His Word. Experience is necessary in building a true knowledge of the Word. Many fear experience because it might lead away from Scripture. The mistakes of some have led many to fear experiential pursuit.16 But it is illegitimate to allow fear to keep us from pursuing a deeper experience with God! Embracing such fear causes a failure to the other extreme, which is culturally more acceptable, but significantly worse in eternity.<BR/><BR/>God does as He pleases. While true to His Word, He does not avoid acting outside of our understanding of it. For example, He’s a loving God who hates Esau.17 He’s the One who has been respectfully called a gentleman, yet who knocked Saul off of his donkey18 and picked Ezekiel up off the ground by his hair.19 He’s the bright and morning star20 who veils Himself in darkness.21 He hates divorce,22 yet is Himself divorced.23 This list of seemingly conflicting ideas could go on for much longer than any of us could bear. Yet this uncomfortable tension is designed to keep us honest and truly dependent on the Holy Spirit for understanding who God is and what He is saying to us through His book. God is so foreign to our natural ways of thinking that we only truly see what He shows us—and we can only understand Him through relationship.<BR/><BR/>The Bible is the absolute Word of God. It reveals God; the obvious, the unexplainable, the mysterious, and sometimes offensive. It all reveals the greatness of our God. Yet it does not contain Him. God is bigger than His book.<BR/><BR/>Revival is mixed with many such dilemmas—God doing what we’ve never seen Him do before, all to confirm that He is whom He said in His Word. We have the inward conflict of following the One who changes not, yet promises to do a new thing in us. This becomes even more confusing when we try to fit that new thing into the mold made by our past successful experiences.<BR/><BR/>Not everyone handles this challenge well. Many hide their need to be in control behind the banner of “staying anchored to the Word of God.” By rejecting those who differ from them, they successfully protect themselves from discomfort, and from the change for which they’ve been praying.<BR/><BR/>ROAD MAP OR TOUR GUIDE<BR/><BR/>The acceptable way of studying Scripture puts the power of revelation into the hands of anyone who can afford a Strong’s Concordance and a few other miscellaneous study materials. Put in the time, and you can learn some wonderful things. I don’t want to discount a regular disciplined approach to study, or certainly those wonderful study tools, as it is God who gives us the hunger to learn. But in reality, the Bible is a closed book. Anything I can get from the Word without God will not change my life. It is closed to insure that I remain dependent on the Holy Spirit. It is that desperate approach to Scripture that delights the heart of God. “It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but the glory of kings is to search out a matter.” 24 He loves to feed those who are truly hungry.<BR/><BR/>Bible study is often promoted so that we will get formulas for living. Certainly there are principles that can be laid in an A to Z fashion. But too often that approach makes the Bible a road map. When I treat the Bible as a road map I live as though I can find my way through my own understanding of His book. I believe this perspective of scriptures actually describes living under the law, not living under grace. Living under the law is the tendency to desire a list of preset boundaries, and not a relationship. While both the Law and Grace have commandments, Grace comes with an inbuilt ability to obey what was commanded. Under Grace I don’t get a road map…I get a tour guide—the Holy Spirit. He directs, reveals, and empowers me to be and do what the Word says.<BR/><BR/>There are many concepts that the Church has held dear desiring to maintain a devotion to Scripture. But some of these actually work against the true value of God’s Word. For example: many who reject the move of the Holy Spirit have claimed that the Church doesn’t need signs and wonders because we have the Bible. Yet, that teaching contradicts the very Word it tries to exalt. If you assign ten new believers the task of studying the Bible to find God’s heart for this generation, not one of them would conclude that spiritual gifts are not for today. You have to be taught that stuff! The doctrine stating signs and wonders are no longer needed because we have the Bible was created by people who hadn’t seen God’s power and needed an explanation to justify their own powerless churches.<BR/><BR/>Revelation that doesn’t lead to a God encounter only serves to make me more religious. Unless Scripture leads me to Him, I only become better equipped to debate with those who disagree with my way of thinking.<BR/><BR/>“Knowledge puffs up...”25 Notice Paul didn’t say unbiblical knowledge, or carnal knowledge. Knowledge, including that which comes from Scripture, has the potential to make me proud. So how can I protect myself from the pride that comes from knowledge, even when it’s from the Bible? I must be certain that it takes me to Jesus!<BR/><BR/>The pride that comes from mere Bible knowledge is divisive. It creates an appetite for one’s own opinion. “He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.”26 Those trained without a revelation that takes us to Him are trained to speak from themselves, for their own glory. This drive for knowledge without an encounter with God wars against true righteousness.<BR/><BR/>Not only does righteousness suffer, so does our faith. “How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?”27 That desire for glory from man somehow displaces faith. The heart that fears God only—the one that seeks first His Kingdom and desires God to receive all honor and glory—that heart is the heart where faith is born.<BR/><BR/>The mission of heaven is to infiltrate earth with its realities. All teaching is to lead us to that end, for training in the Kingdom is not without purpose. We are being trained to run the family business. This is the discovery of the next chapter.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>ENDNOTES<BR/><BR/>16. Being deceived didn’t start with believing something unscriptural. It started with a heart full of compromise. For no one is ever deceived except they first compromise. See 1 Tim. 1:18-19.<BR/>17. See Mal. 1:2-3.<BR/>18. See Acts 9:4.<BR/>19. See Ezek. 8:3.<BR/>20. See Rev. 22:16.<BR/>21. See Ps. 97:2.<BR/>22. See Mal. 2:16.<BR/>23. See Jer. 3:8.<BR/>24. Prov. 25:2.<BR/>25. 1Cor. 8:1.<BR/>26. John 7:18.<BR/>27. John 5:44.<BR/><BR/><B><BR/>::end quote::<BR/></B><BR/><BR/>I think I am finished here. It is obvious that no fruit will come from such a discussion over a medium such as this. I'm not going to convince you (although that really wasn't my purpose to begin with) and you aren't going to convince me.<BR/><BR/>I love all of you and have thoroughly enjoyed myself here in this discussion.<BR/><BR/>Keep loving God.<BR/><BR/>in love,<BR/>>>zackZack Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17624381145188381774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-31188294717196895482007-07-14T22:46:00.000-07:002007-07-14T22:46:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Zack Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17624381145188381774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-83691670413053304002007-07-14T21:32:00.000-07:002007-07-14T21:32:00.000-07:00If anyone is still around..."This is teaching of m...If anyone is still around...<BR/><BR/>"<I>This is teaching of man, not Scripture.</I>" -donsands<BR/><BR/>What is? Were you referring to:<BR/><BR/>1.sickness is to the body what sin is to the soul, or<BR/>2.faith is much more free to develop when we truly see the heart of God as good<BR/><BR/>“<I>Do you think Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and Jon Arnot are genuine preachers?</I>” -donsands<BR/><BR/>What is this “genuine?” But based on what I know to be a preacher...yes.<BR/><BR/>Daryl,<BR/><BR/>You listed 4 Scripture references:<BR/><BR/>1."...I put to death and I bring to life, <BR/>I have wounded and I will heal,..." Deut. 32:29<BR/>2." I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things." Is 45:6-7 <BR/>3."The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up. The LORD sends poverty and wealth; he humbles and he exalts." I Sam 2:6-7 <BR/>4."Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" Job 2:10 <BR/><BR/>...specifically in reference to this statement:<BR/><BR/>“<I>if I believe that God allows sickness in order to build character, I'll not have confidence praying in most situations where healings is needed. But, if I believe that sickness is to the body what sin is to the soul, then no disease will intimidate me. Faith is much more free to develop when we truly see the heart of God as good.</I>”<BR/><BR/>None of these passages speaks about:<BR/><BR/>1.God allowing sickness in order to build character.<BR/>2.Confidence in situations where healings are needed.<BR/>3.Sickness is to the body what sin is to the soul<BR/>4.Faith being freer to develop when we understand the heart of God as good.<BR/><BR/>The first three verses I listed didn't pose a problem to me as they primarily deal with God punishing people, however I have to admit I was really caught off guard by Job 2:10. So I dug into it...<BR/><BR/>God didn't inflict those things on Job...satan did. Yes, God “allowed” him to do so, but I don't believe it had anything to do with “building character.” Job's response makes it clear that he, in large part, already had the necessary character.<BR/><BR/>There is a lot of tension in the OT Scripture. For example, many Protestant Christians hold that God does not change His mind based on passages such as Numbers 23.19. The Hebrew word <I>niham</I> is the word for “change one's mind.” The OT records that God does not <I>niham</I> six times. But did you know that the OT also records that God does <I>niham</I> some twenty-six times? There is obvious tension there. Is there a contradiction? No. What does it mean? I think it means we don't understand God as well as we give ourselves credit. I think the Job passage falls into this sort of category.<BR/><BR/>Also, I emailed Bill about those four verses and this is what he had to say:<BR/><BR/><I>If an Old Testament revelation of God's nature has more merit than the perfect revelation found in the person of Jesus Christ then we might as well go back to blood sacrifices. Jesus Christ is perfect theology. He clearly manifests that nature of the Father - He healed everyone who came to him. If the Father gives sickness, and Jesus bears stripes in His body to destroy it's power, we have the two working against each other - it's a divided house and cannot stand. That of course is not the case. Jesus healed all who came to Him because He was revealing who the Father really is, and what He is like.</I><BR/><BR/>So basically, the revelation of Christ has precedence. And if God is the author of sickness and Christ came to heal us of both spiritual and physical infirmities then God and Christ would be in opposition to one another. Christ said, “<I>“Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.</I>” God and Christ are obviously not in opposition to one another so it doesn't make sense unless God gave the sickness for the sole purpose of healing it for His glory.<BR/><BR/>I don't know about you, but I don't think all the floods, disasters, cancer and other diseases are God inflicting punishment on us, or Him trying to build up our character. The enemy is behind those things. If we had not fallen, he would have never been able to do such things.<BR/><BR/>Jesus said, “Your Kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven.” That is what I want. There is no sickness in heaven. I'm sure the enemy would love for there to be, but there is not. If we are to live by our Lord's prayer then we should do away with sickness here.<BR/><BR/>“<I>Same thing with the sign gifts. How could a good God keep from us what he would give to the apostles?<BR/><BR/>That is not for us to decide.</I>” -daryl<BR/><BR/>Are you asking me a question here or trying to make a point or what. I'm confused.<BR/><BR/>“<I>Not only that, but have these guys ever had to deal with an unrepentant child that will not bend on an issue? You'd be surprised how far a parent may need to go sometimes for the good of his child..</I>”<BR/><BR/>Yes, friends. You heard it here first. Do you have a child that will not budge? Let not your heart be troubled. We have the PERFECT solution. It has worked 100% of the time. Give your child a disease. We have literally TONS to choose from. Influenza, Avian Bird Flu, Cancer, HIV, AIDS, whatever tickles your fancy. The list goes on and on. Friends, this is sure to set your unrepentant child straight! Just call 1-800-DISEASE. Don't hesitate. Call now!<BR/><BR/>...please.<BR/><BR/>“<I>Can those two words be used together in a sentence??</I>” -rhett<BR/><BR/>Yes. You quoted it in a sentence once, and stated it in a sentence a second time.<BR/><BR/>“<I>Actually, this person's "god" probably isn't big enough to deal with Benny, however, the God of the Bible is big enough and will take care of Benny in due time!</I>”<BR/><BR/>Wow! I can't believe I actually read that. As if this is some game? No matter your differences, you and Benny Hinn still bow your knees before the throne of Glory and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord of All, and by that confession you are brothers under the name of Christ. What you've done here is no different than the latest news from the Vatican. You should be ashamed of yourself.<BR/><BR/>I certainly hope that the others on this board do not condone such statements.<BR/><BR/>Here is something good to read: <A HREF="”www.greatcom.org/resources/heaven_invades/chap04/default.htm”" REL="nofollow">Teaching Into an Encounter</A>. Pay special attention to the sections titled “God is Bigger Than His Book” and “Road Map or Tour Guide.”<BR/><BR/>One of my favorite quotes: “<I>God does as He pleases. While true to His Word, He does not avoid acting outside of our understanding of it.”</I><BR/><BR/>in love,<BR/>>>zackZack Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17624381145188381774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45915839697009699592007-07-14T02:43:00.000-07:002007-07-14T02:43:00.000-07:00"..leave Brother Hinn alone. If he is a fake, my G..."..leave Brother Hinn alone. If he is a fake, my God is big enough to take care of him."<BR/><BR/>Brother Hinn???<BR/><BR/>Can those two words be used together in a sentence?? <BR/><BR/>Actually, this person's "god" probably isn't big enough to deal with Benny, however, the God of the Bible is big enough and will take care of Benny in due time!Machine Gun Kelleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17501532765910479437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-71941144318556286022007-07-14T02:09:00.000-07:002007-07-14T02:09:00.000-07:00Zack, I quoted what you said, as you made it the c...Zack, I quoted what you said, as you made it the contrast to the continuationalist position.<BR/><BR/> As to your extensive Bill Johnson quote, I'm content with the response Daryl has given you. As someone with a painful disability and a belief in the sovereign plan of God, I don't trust myself to continue to be rational in conversation with someone who gives credence to the type of theology that you are promoting.Kayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14873728356115837593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44316631784454883892007-07-13T19:24:00.000-07:002007-07-13T19:24:00.000-07:00Zack said"...if I believe that God allows sickness...Zack said<BR/>"...if I believe that God allows sickness in order to build character, I'll not have confidence praying in most situations where healings is needed. But, if I believe that sickness is to the body what sin is to the soul, then no disease will intimidate me. Faith is much more free to develop when we truly see the heart of God as good.<BR/>The same misconceptions of God affect those who need to have faith for their own miracle. A woman who needed a miracle once told me that she felt God had allowed her sickness for a purpose. I told her that if I treated my children that way I'd be arrested for child abuse..."<BR/><BR/>--------------------<BR/><BR/>Apparently Job didn't think so<BR/><BR/>"Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" Job 2:10<BR/><BR/>Nor did Moses...<BR/><BR/>"...I put to death and I bring to life, <BR/> I have wounded and I will heal,..." Deut. 32:29<BR/><BR/>Nor Isaiah...<BR/><BR/>" I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things." Is 45:6-7<BR/><BR/>Nor Samuel...<BR/><BR/>"The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up. The LORD sends poverty and wealth; he humbles and he exalts." I Sam 2:6-7 <BR/><BR/><BR/>This is where things really begin to come apart Zack. Not just for Charismatics but also Arminians and anyone else who sees anything as coming from anywhere other than (ultimately) God's hand. <BR/>In my experience anything people label as bad instantly becomes something over which we must "claim authority" or use as an identifier for the lack of faith in someone.<BR/><BR/>And when we do that, we eventually start to define what a good God would do based on what we think he should do. That doesn't mean we don't pray for healing. It just means we take the healing or lack of healing for what it is. A good gift, whether we like how it looks or not.<BR/><BR/>Same thing with the sign gifts. How could a good God keep from us what he would give to the apostles?<BR/><BR/>That is not for us to decide.<BR/><BR/>By the way, this whole child abuse thing keeps coming up lately. Steve Chalke, your Bill Johnson. Everytime I hear that I think, "if God is to be held to the same rules I am held to, we're all cooked." Not only that, but have these guys ever had to deal with an unrepentant child that will not bend on an issue? You'd be surprised how far a parent may need to go sometimes for the good of his child...Darylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01296029404229769941noreply@blogger.com