tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post3700580846827254725..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Strange Fire Conference #8: John MacArthur, final sessionPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3622393842210598772013-11-19T18:08:14.158-08:002013-11-19T18:08:14.158-08:00Guys, an off the beat comment to be sure, but I th...Guys, an off the beat comment to be sure, but I think this would be high time for a rare Pecadillo post. Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66988925427763037902013-11-19T13:48:22.303-08:002013-11-19T13:48:22.303-08:00correction...
but it does mean that these elders ...correction...<br /><br />but it does mean that these elders <b>should have been</b> but it does NOT mean that these eldershammer185https://www.blogger.com/profile/07527866349164099312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-57780481121486622502013-11-19T13:43:30.150-08:002013-11-19T13:43:30.150-08:00The post isn't about James 5:14-15, nonetheles...The post isn't about James 5:14-15, nonetheless I allowed the last comment to illustrate that evidently there are those who don't read it as about healing. Yet even still, Ryan doesn't deny that we pray for healing.<br /><br />I agree with you that James has many connections with Jesus' teachings, and that it isn't a random assortment of sayings. however, I think your reading here is hardly the most natural reading of the words.<br /><br />At any rate, we're agreed that it (A) has nothing to do with the gift of healing, and (B) prayer for healing is a normal Christian practice.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-64579846646677825692013-11-19T13:30:59.780-08:002013-11-19T13:30:59.780-08:00Brian,
The sick in James 5:14-16 IS NOT [physical...Brian,<br /><br />The <b>sick</b> in James 5:14-16 IS NOT <b><i>[physically]</i> sick</b> but instead <b><i>[spiritually]</i> sick</b> based upon the entire context of the Book of James & the references he uses to the rest of the Bible. This is the section of James where he is writing about <b><i>[spiritual]</i> triage</b>, not <b><i>[physical]</i> triage</b>, in the church so to speak. He is writing about a wrapping up of a major, future from James perspective, <b><i>spiritual</i> battle</b> in chapter 5. See context of James 5:1 for separation from false teachers. These in 5:1 also are not necessarily <b><i>[physically]</i> rich</b> but in their own minds <b><i>[spiritually]</i> rich</b> not needing but instead rejecting the wisdom of God from above (3:17) which comes through the <b><i>[spiritually]</i> poor</b> man (1:9 'brother of low degree', 4:7, 3:17). <br /><br />With this in mind the healing in James 5:14-16 is effectual because it is joined not just with the actions of the elders, but also the action the spiritually sick man asking for forgiveness and also the poor man who is also the righteous man in James 5:16.<br /><br />Here is a simple analogy. Poor/lowly man X says the church needs to stop the practice of doing so and so. Rich man Y says no. The stage is set for the church to discern who has the wisdom from God, man X or man Y. Man Y refuses the wisdom from God and the practice of Matthew 18. May Y makes worldly arguments to fight and discredit Man X. Man Y gains followers and now is represented not just as the rich man, but with rich men. In 5:1 the church elders in particular have recognized the true wisdom and judged the false teachers/rich man and his men. Now man Z in the process said sinful things about Man X even though Man X was not in the wrong (James 5:6), (James 2:2-5). Man Z is spiritually sick and needs to repent and is only now (in the unfolding of the letter) learning from the elders some of what really happened and this section (James 5:7 following) represents spiritual triage after the battle in the church. <br /><br />I assert that James is not a book of separate good sayings or proverbs. It is instead a book in which James uses Scripturally taught and contextually realized uses of words and these usages are especially from Jesus' teachings. In this Book James writes about a, future to James but no doubt experienced partially by him as leader of the Jerusalem church, spiritual battle which will happen in the church. If a person does not look to the rest of Scripture to ground the usage of words like (rich, poor, sick, flower vs. flowers of the field, etc...) then the continuity of the action and drama in the church described in James will be missed and this book will seem like a collection of good proverbs with some practical application that asserts physical truths when it is really about spiritual uses of these words such as Matthew 5:3 (poor in spirit). <br /><br />And so for example, if a person looks at different uses of sick in Scripture they will see that James doesn't make up this type of canonical use of sick, (ie. Matt 25:36-39, Matt 25:43-44, Acts 20:35, Heb 12:3, but he does run with it.<br /><br />And so, when you assert that James is describing things that are happening when he wrote the letter in a way that elders at the time he wrote this had the power to heal physically sick people, you need some correction in understanding this book. James is using a collection of truths taught in Scripture, and no doubt his experience as leader of the Jerusalem church, and experience as a brother of Jesus, to describe a prophetic event regrading the twelve tribes who are scattered going through a major (future when he wrote it) spiritual battle.<br /><br />PS: I am not saying that it is not a normal compassionate loving thing for elders to pray for those who are physically sick in their church, but it does mean that these elders have more obligation or effectual healing abilities now, or when James wrote this letter for that matter, than anyone else in the church.<br /><br />Ryan Roothammer185https://www.blogger.com/profile/07527866349164099312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-15164521802141588382013-11-19T09:47:42.926-08:002013-11-19T09:47:42.926-08:00DJP, one reason it now seems clear to me that answ...DJP, one reason it now seems clear to me that answering my previous question as you did ought to be part of the cessationist/sufficientist position is because otherwise then the role of an elder of asking God to heal the anointed sick per James 5:14-16 would imply that he as an elder must've had the gift of healing. <br />In other words, the cessationist/sufficientist that affirms that previous question would also have to believe that one of the qualifications (never mentioned in Scripture) for being an elder/pastor/bishop back then in James’ day would be having the gift of healing -- a gift that especially the apostles of the Lord Jesus possessed, which in turn demonstrated with awe their apostleship.brianonpyromaniacshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072031739363337185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16838677782784949502013-11-19T09:43:08.606-08:002013-11-19T09:43:08.606-08:00Dr. John MacArthur is more gracious and loving tha...Dr. John MacArthur is more gracious and loving than his vehement critics. And they're the ones complaining about a lack of grace, and a lack of love from him! Don't they see the log in their eye?Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74616025440866058792013-11-19T08:47:30.654-08:002013-11-19T08:47:30.654-08:00No, Brian, and I don't know any sufficientist ...No, Brian, and I don't know any sufficientist who would take that position.<br /><br />That so many Charismatics/continuationsts keep feigning surprise when they learn that sufficientists pray for healing is only a testimony to the effort they've given to understanding the Bible-affirming position.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13691847152709985912013-11-19T08:38:10.354-08:002013-11-19T08:38:10.354-08:00Does the cessation of "the gift of healing&qu...Does the cessation of "the gift of healing" (as mentioned in the 'Seventh,...' paragraph) entail that sick Christians today should not have the elders of the church pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord (as James instructed in James 5:14-16)?brianonpyromaniacshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01072031739363337185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66077911498641962512013-11-19T06:23:13.915-08:002013-11-19T06:23:13.915-08:00I was thinking as I read this excellent post of Dr...I was thinking as I read this excellent post of Dr. Luke's Book: Acts of the Apostles.<br /><br />That book says so much to us, the Body of Christ. I read through where Peter was healing people just walking the streets, and was arrested, and he was preaching, and people were being added to the Church, and then Stephen preached and was stoned.<br />(Maybe Stephen over did it.)<br /><br />Thanks for sharing Pastor John's thoughts. Very encouraging indeed.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.com