tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post3721763483649548948..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Charismatics and Qu'ran-burning/not-burning Terry JonesPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger193125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32404434676297237902010-09-15T11:43:40.624-07:002010-09-15T11:43:40.624-07:00Well, as this meta's gone far afield, perhaps ...Well, as this meta's gone far afield, perhaps now is as good a time as any to sum up, and wrap up.<br /><br />Wayne Grudem, the Blackabys and others who otherwise may be good men have done the church a grave disservice by extending cover to nutcases like Terry Jones, John Crowder, and others. It isn't intentional, let us say, but it does necessarily follow from their positions.<br /><br />By moving us away from the Biblical standard of concerning ourselves solely with (A) inerrant, morally-binding words from God, or (B) believing obedience to such words (as found today in Scripture alone), they open the door to anyone with any claim to anything that doesn't violate a direct word.<br /><br />But there is no control on such Biblically-unwarranted claims, beyond that they can't violate Scripture. So while a Terry Jones can't (by Grudemic/Blackabbean standards) claim that God told him to commit adultery, all the nutty Charismatics can do nutty, irresponsible, manipulative things - all under the cover of an unverifiable, unfalsifiable, ever-moving-target claim of immediate semi-hemi-demi inspiration.<br /><br />Thus, as much as modern Charismatics would love to say "I'm not with them" — they really are.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34658716688529958532010-09-15T11:32:06.333-07:002010-09-15T11:32:06.333-07:00Thanks again!Thanks again!Denishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03978034888390591496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2764420834660520802010-09-15T11:31:23.628-07:002010-09-15T11:31:23.628-07:00DJP,
A list of these gifts may be helpful, I am ...DJP,<br /><br />A list of these gifts may be helpful, I am assuming you include the 9 listed in I Co. 12. But there are others mentioned in the Nt. Do you make a distinction between a Pentecostal and a Charismatic? So bottom line if someone says "I spoke in tongues" your explanation would be for the experience?<br /><br />IanIanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13858057932102156264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-68303338822941080692010-09-15T11:24:59.140-07:002010-09-15T11:24:59.140-07:00Denis, no; on the whole there's nothing wrong ...Denis, no; on the whole there's nothing wrong with those statements. The Bible talks about the Spirit's leading — but moderns insert foreign notions. In context, Romans 8:14 is about holy living, which means obedience to Scripture born of faith and love. Not ookie spooky hunches and feelings and wacky behavior. HOLY behavior, Christlike behavior.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78574703673825706202010-09-15T11:18:57.646-07:002010-09-15T11:18:57.646-07:00Ian - a Charismatic is someone who will go to any ...Ian - a Charismatic is someone who will go to any lengths to imagine that some form of revelatory and attesting gifts function in the Christian church, in some way, past the close of the Canon.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32643771993582967632010-09-15T10:59:44.999-07:002010-09-15T10:59:44.999-07:00Robert,
I didn't think you were being offensi...Robert,<br /><br />I didn't think you were being offensive--"flippant dismissal" wasn't a description of your tone. And I didn't say that simply because you weren't persuaded.<br /><br />I called your comment a "flippant dismissal" because of the bolded parts:<br />"I have gotten <b>a short way through it</b> and find Storm's inclusion of <b>(or better still, accompanied by) to be quite the tell</b>"<br /><br />You took the confident expression of a conclusion as evidence that it wasn't a <i>conclusion</i>, but a preconceived idea.<br /><br />You were only a short way into the article, but you perceived "(or better still, accompanied by)" as an indication of a preconceived idea, instead of a <i>conclusion</i> that's based on the arguments in the rest of the article (which you hadn't read yet).<br /><br />By "flippant dismissal", I meant "quick to dismiss before seriously considering the argument."<br /><br />You may have good reason for going on to disagree with his argument that the signs of an apostle are (1) the fruit of his preaching (i.e. their salvation), (2) his Christ-like life, and (3) his sufferings & persecution. But you started poorly, is my point--with a comment that suggests having your own mind made up beforehand.<br /><br /><br />As far as the merit of his argument goes, I'd like to listen to the Macarthur link you suggested. For now, I agree with Storms, and I give you a couple points to consider. Paul was distinguishing between himself and the so-called "super-apostles". How does it make sense for him to point to <i>miracles</i> as the signs of a true apostle, given:<br />1.) The existence of lying signs. (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=matt%2024:24" rel="nofollow">Matt 24:24</a>)<br />2.) Jesus' identification of what marks us as his disciples. (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=john+13:35" rel="nofollow">John 13:35</a>) (Consider also Jonathan Edwards' arguments about the signs of the Spirit.)<br />3.) Along the lines, Paul's prior comments to the Corinthians about spiritual gifts. His instruction to people who were eager for manifestations of the Spirit was, "strive to excel in building up the church." (<a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=1+cor+14:12" rel="nofollow">1 Cor 14:12</a>) (The impression I get is that some Corinthians were focused on flashy spiritual displays. But Paul puts the focus on edification and love; the higher spiritual gifts are those that edify more.)<br /><br /><br />Miracles are a part of apostleship, certainly. Pointing to them as the distinguishing mark between true apostles and so-called super-apostles... Doesn't fit well. If "accompanied by" (or the ESV's "with") is a valid translation, then I see no reason to read it the way you do.Jugulumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09932658890162312549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47863302956091082412010-09-15T10:45:11.072-07:002010-09-15T10:45:11.072-07:00Matt said Because to use scripture to support my v...Matt said <i>Because to use scripture to support my view would be to quote it from beginning to end. God has always spoken with His people -- from the OT through the NT. There is no reason to believe that this activity of God has ceased.</i><br /><br />No reason at all, except that little verse of Hebrews 1:1-2. Come on Matt, revelation unfolds and now we have Scripture. Oh, and that other pesky text that says "if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease"mikebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06947509425403456046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41689283274356321162010-09-15T10:36:42.780-07:002010-09-15T10:36:42.780-07:00Oh dear, Matt, I thought we were talking about wha...Oh dear, Matt, I thought we were talking about what the Bible teaches. I respect the past greats... but do we have to stall the discussion while both of us read every book ever written by every Christians, count up the votes, then return to the issue?<br /><br />Tell you what: you go first on that. Meanwhile I've provided Biblical data, and I'm going to stand on that until I hear otherwise from Scripture. Been a few years now, and no one's even come close.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74206840127221653082010-09-15T10:32:32.342-07:002010-09-15T10:32:32.342-07:00"Charismatic" definition ... anyone?"Charismatic" definition ... anyone?Ianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13858057932102156264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69677057064245536922010-09-15T10:29:20.705-07:002010-09-15T10:29:20.705-07:00Rosemarie - then pray against the spirit of prayin...Rosemarie - then pray against the spirit of praying against spirits.<br /><br />(c;DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3938492147129811682010-09-15T10:26:38.353-07:002010-09-15T10:26:38.353-07:00"OK, Matt, stop. You're getting far afiel..."OK, Matt, stop. You're getting far afield, and that last comment (while doubtless well-intended) is just silly.<br /><br />Every Christian believes God answers prayer — and that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.<br /><br />Read this. It will help, if you let it."<br /><br />Silly? Because you say so.... the response was to Phil and I think it pertained directly to his question.<br /><br />I read the post at the link you provided.<br /><br />It would seem that Calvin, Spurgeon, Henry, and Clarke would all disagree with you as they all have referred in commentary and sermons to the statements "The Power of Prayer" And Conversations with God it is well documented. Your bookshelf is probably full of that information.<br /><br />RespectfullyMatt Churchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05047236734663158058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-38899822451418821622010-09-15T10:21:30.269-07:002010-09-15T10:21:30.269-07:00I plan on leaving a witty, cogent and superlative ...I plan on leaving a witty, cogent and superlative response to this post just as soon as God tells me what it is. Until then, I just feel a check in my spirit, like I should wait.So,until I hear from Him, I am going to pray against the spirit of anticharismaticism that has a stronghold on the people in this thread..... Oh... wait... I actually read my bible now. Forget all that stuff up there. It was only a flashback from my days of reading the Bondage Maker...er Breaker..rosemariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12650494026412824392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26146137953210441382010-09-15T10:02:14.129-07:002010-09-15T10:02:14.129-07:00Matt — Please drop the condescending tone, or I wi...<b>Matt</b> — <i>Please drop the condescending tone, or I will begin to question your salvation</i><br /><br />Nice.<br /><br />So, you're proposing that you continue to champion inane and pathetic arguments, but I should stop observing that they are such? And I should do so under threat that, if I don't, you will exercise your supernatural Salvation-detector, and find me lacking?<br /><br />Sorry, that doesn't work for me.<br /><br />Counter-proposal: renounce your lame arguments, and make some good ones, and I will say "Atta boy."<br /><br />So: we've established this has nothing to do with the sovereignty of God. it's a pathetic dodge. You just haven't admitted it.<br /><br />Next: you say that Scripture is insufficient. OK, just be up-front about it. We say it isn't, and have proven it countless times.<br /><br />Next: well, nothing relevant, just a lot of off-topic words. Nudging and all identified as God mumbling and hinting, still no Biblical evidence whatever.<br /><br />So: did God speak to Terry Jones? Please prove your answer.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-71647476243686735282010-09-15T09:37:06.876-07:002010-09-15T09:37:06.876-07:00mikeb,
Because to use scripture to support my vie...mikeb,<br /><br />Because to use scripture to support my view would be to quote it from beginning to end. God has always spoken with His people -- from the OT through the NT. There is no reason to believe that this activity of God has ceased.<br /><br />There are also the clear commands, which I have posted before, not to despise prophesies or forbid the speaking of tongues. How are those who condemn all such things not in a clear violation of a command in scripture? On the other hand, what command have I violated in believing that God can continue to speak to His people?Matt Aznoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01886592758527878686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72315485624607333462010-09-15T09:32:50.766-07:002010-09-15T09:32:50.766-07:00DJP,
Define "Charismatic" please.
Than...DJP,<br /><br />Define "Charismatic" please.<br /><br />Thanks, IanIanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13858057932102156264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48406605049887848792010-09-15T09:28:53.198-07:002010-09-15T09:28:53.198-07:00Now after these events Paul resolved in the Spirit...Now after these events Paul resolved in the Spirit to pass through Macedonia and Achaia and go to Jerusalem, saying, "After I have been there, I must also see Rome." <br />(Act 19:21 ESV)<br /><br />It does not say that the Spirit spoke to him, but it does imply that his decision was spirit-filled.<br /><br />Robert, read what I said about Revelations, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John. Would that verse then make any prophesies that occurred after that verse was penned false? Or rather, in the context of that verse, since we are talking about Jesus as the cornerstone, there should not have been any prophesies after Jesus at all.<br /><br />Can you guys not see that our God is an abundantly gracious God? Yes, all we <i>needed</i> was Jesus Christ. All we <i>needed</i> was to be saved from our sins. But God doesn't stop there.<br /><br /><br />For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. <br />(Rom 8:14-17 ESV)Matt Aznoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01886592758527878686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-83611254316661839942010-09-15T09:18:17.634-07:002010-09-15T09:18:17.634-07:00It means that He does whatever He wants.
Or also ...<i>It means that He does whatever He wants.</i><br /><br />Or also commonly said as <i>I don't put God in a box."</i><br /><br />Straw man! The question is not whether God can do whatever he wants or not. The question is whether God still speaks through prophets. God could destroy the world by fire when he likes. This does not mean we can claim he has already done so.<br /><br />Why do the previous commenters supporting modern-day prophets not argue from Scripture?mikebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06947509425403456046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44326491210791652002010-09-15T09:18:10.815-07:002010-09-15T09:18:10.815-07:00Hi Dan,
Thank you for providing that summary, it ...Hi Dan,<br /><br />Thank you for providing that summary, it really helps.<br /><br />Am I correct in understanding that your second point would mean that the following are incorrect understandings of the work of the Spirit?<br /><br />"The Spirit comforts, guides, and teaches ... [t]hese activities are done in a manner that involves intelligence, will, feeling, and power. He searches, selects, reveals, comforts, convicts, and admonishes."<br /><br />"[The Spirit] works with the Word and through the Word. His task is never to teach against the word. It is therefore necessary to test what we hear by the teachings of Scripture." <br /><br />These teachings indicate there is a mode of direct communication that the Spirit uses with us which requires our discernment; something your second point seems to rule out. <br /><br />Or am I being overly strict in my interpretation of your words and the issue with this point is more that people should not definitively say that "God said", as if it lends authority to their position, and instead should use much more careful language, such as the Grudem quote Jugulum provided earlier teaches.<br /><br />Thanks again in helping me understand your position more clearly.Denishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03978034888390591496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69640679613096402482010-09-15T09:16:05.661-07:002010-09-15T09:16:05.661-07:00So Matt,
You think that the Bible doesn't def...So Matt,<br /><br />You think that the Bible doesn't define God well enough so that we can say there are things he won't do? Like leave sin unpunished?<br /><br />How about the fact that in Ephesians 2:20, the Word of God says that the apostles <b>and prophets</b> are the foundation of the church, with Jesus as the chief cornerstone? The foundation is laid...we don't have prophets any more.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67727083078991232892010-09-15T09:14:19.307-07:002010-09-15T09:14:19.307-07:00DJP,
Please drop the condescending tone, or I wil...DJP,<br /><br />Please drop the condescending tone, or I will begin to question <i>your</i> salvation. Perhaps God intends for you to learn something this morning.<br /><br />God has clearly laid out the Gospel in His Word. Your example is clearly not Biblical.<br /><br />However, to say that God cannot and will not speak when He has said no such thing is to place limits where no limits have been placed. When I read the OT and the NT, I see a God who is interacts with those whose hearts desire Him. He speaks and He directs. Why should we think that the way that God has interacted with those who desire Him from the beginning of history should be any different now?<br /><br />Even taking the example of 2 Timothy 3:16 as saying we needed nothing more, the books of 1,2, and 3 John as well as Revelation had not yet been written. Do we not need what was expressed in those books? But by your logic, anything after the completion of 2 Timothy was no longer necessary. But it is even worse because in some of Paul's earlier writings, he said we have everything we need.<br /><br />And we do -- in Christ. We have the revealed Word of God in scripture, and we also have the indwelling Holy Spirit in our lives. We have everything we need because God is with us to graciously provide anything we may lack in any circumstance: the strength to endure, the encouragement to remain joyful in trial, or even a word of encouragement or direction to help us on our way. <br /><br />I find it sad that people were condemning that woman for seeing the heart shaped rock as an encouragement from God. I may show my wife love by my commitment to her, by my hard work, by my affection, by my provision. Even if I give her everything I need, does it not help if I on occasion give her some flowers. Maybe that last sign of affection is what she needed to lift her spirits that day.<br /><br />Could that not have simply been God adding grace upon grace? Would that no be in the very nature of our boundlessly gracious God?Matt Aznoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01886592758527878686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-17237033864608103272010-09-15T09:09:31.054-07:002010-09-15T09:09:31.054-07:00> Prove it from Scripture.
Why?
A "burnin...> Prove it from Scripture.<br /><br />Why?<br />A "burning in the bosom" is sufficient, right?Mike Westfallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06944727980772754938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48482403074993534392010-09-15T09:05:32.813-07:002010-09-15T09:05:32.813-07:00one may just feel a nudge or a pull
Prove it from...<i>one may just feel a nudge or a pull</i><br /><br />Prove it from Scripture.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-75280799026733332272010-09-15T09:04:34.820-07:002010-09-15T09:04:34.820-07:00I should also add that I meant to type (in the ori...I should also add that I meant to type (in the original post): it is not <i>necessarily</i> something you can quantify. One may hear and audible voice; one may just feel a nudge or a pull. But if one is walking in close communion (in obedience, prayer, and faith), they will know when God is directing them.Matt Aznoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01886592758527878686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9505786833759321602010-09-15T09:04:11.604-07:002010-09-15T09:04:11.604-07:00Gosh, that's pathetic.
So then you must also ...Gosh, that's pathetic.<br /><br />So then you must also believe that "If God wants to forgive someone's sins because they own a Mickey Mouse doll, who's to say He can't?" After all, God is sovereign, right?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-90690348062038422512010-09-15T09:02:41.384-07:002010-09-15T09:02:41.384-07:00It is not completely off-topic as it is a response...It is not completely off-topic as it is a response to the attitude that dismisses any possibility for God to speak, even to a true child of God. <br /><br />So I cannot really renounce the statement except to say that it does not justify the actions of Terry Jones, Wayne Sapp or any other person who has been demonstrated to be a false prophet.Matt Aznoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01886592758527878686noreply@blogger.com