tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post3997624046754188212..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Sometimes fellowship is better than a fight. Sometimes not.Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger88125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86027607327026162542009-08-24T19:55:58.549-07:002009-08-24T19:55:58.549-07:00Sharp, thoughtful response, Mike. Thanks.Sharp, thoughtful response, Mike. Thanks.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-90858492996300909182009-08-24T19:52:16.847-07:002009-08-24T19:52:16.847-07:00I think the question was along the lines of how do...I think the question was along the lines of how do we determine whether something is central or peripheral.<br /><br />I think we have to gauge this on a few criteria:<br />* How much space does Scripture devote to this doctrine in question? (salvation, for example)<br />* Does Scripture allow for disagreement concerning this doctrine? (food, for example)<br />* Do other important doctrines hinge on a particular doctrine? (virgin birth of Christ, for example)<br />* Is this doctrine considered of primary or secondary importance in Scripture? (Paul's "disputable matters")<br />* Does this doctrine affect a person's eternity? (the Sabbath vs. grace through faith, for example)<br />* Does this doctrine describe the nature of God? (trinity, for example)<br />* Does the doctrine involve origins/first things? (creation, fall of man, for example)<br />* Is it a clear timeless truth or an occasional teaching? (head coverings vs. justification by faith)?<br /><br />Some of the above, I admit, come from Scripture itself. So the *first* question in my view is whether somebody submits to God's Word and its all-sufficiency.<br /><br />I feel that the Apostle's Creed, while perhaps incomplete, did a good job of addressing these things, in its day. They were certainly responding to the heresy of the day and had to grapple with primary things. They went back to the Scriptures, themselves, like the Bereans.mikehoskinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07689468586582130180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36844734046296616712009-08-24T13:29:52.592-07:002009-08-24T13:29:52.592-07:00To qualify my previous remark here a bit more . . ...To qualify my previous remark here a bit more . . . in my view, you're either a brother or you're not a brother (or sister). It's a bit like being a little bit pregnant. You either are, or you're not. <br /><br />Rome has -- at least publically -- softened their line on Protestants not being part of the "one true church." They can still be saved through a "baptism of desire." I guess that makes Protestants "sort of brothers" or "potential brothers." I think the church of Christ (where I grew up) had similar odd views about who qualified as a "brother."Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62740906176953433432009-08-23T22:24:19.976-07:002009-08-23T22:24:19.976-07:00Ok Kent, fair enough. I didn't mean to open a...Ok Kent, fair enough. I didn't mean to open a can of worms here.<br /><br />I think the reason this bugged me so much is that I agreed with your premises, but couldn't follow them thru to your same conclusions. I also now see there are some Theological terms and processes I don't quite get - so I'll hit my pastor up for an explanation. <br /><br />Just for the record though - those 'hypotheticals' were really 'actuals'.one busy momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18087795055010641099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48264731510674238532009-08-23T20:44:55.710-07:002009-08-23T20:44:55.710-07:00Hello Busy Mom,
Your hypotheticals are actually t...Hello Busy Mom,<br /><br />Your hypotheticals are actually the kind of material most often used to justify the tertiary-primary doctrine teaching. The answer to your questions would very involved. I'm pretty sure my answer would be different than Phil's, so if I would answer, I would do it either by email or at my blog. I think it is the kind of question people ask on this subject.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-4472445123707081602009-08-22T21:28:35.925-07:002009-08-22T21:28:35.925-07:00Kent Brandenburg,
I read your post and your blog,...Kent Brandenburg,<br /><br />I read your post and your blog, and now I am officially 100% confused. <br /><br />I agree that every command of God is very serious and has to be obeyed. Now, maybe I'm really missing something here - but you seem to be speaking as if every doctrine is only composed of God's commands. So that dividing doctrines into primary and secondary is actually dividing God's word into important and irrelevant. Like the examples you gave in your blog of those who were not careful to follow God's Word exactly and suffered the consequences.<br /><br />I thought we were using "doctrine" as a much broader term - kind of "the teachings of the church" in general. Sorry, I know this is a pretty sloppy definition - but I don't know how to phrase it better. <br /><br />For instance, I believe in a pre to mid tribulation rapture. I hold this as a doctrine. However, I have a dear friend who firmly believes we'll be here throughout the tribulation and holds her view as a doctrine. We both base our convictions on Scripture, and frequently debate this. Now, since we hold opposite views one of us is obviously wrong. Both of us, though, believe that these are not "core" doctrines - and so do not hold each other as heretics (just simply as mistaken).<br /><br />So, if I can ask - how would you explain this? Am I using the term 'doctrine' differently than you are? Are you including things like this in your definition of doctrine? If so, are you saying this (the rapture and it's timing) is of equal importance as say the doctrine of 'salvation by grace alone'and that it should be defended with equal diligence?<br /><br />I'm really not trying to be difficult....I am trying to figure this out !<br /><br />9:07 PM, August 22, 2009<br /><br /><br />Posted to Sometimes fellowship is better than a fight. Somet... <br />Delete Comment Cancelone busy momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18087795055010641099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16437723666562676972009-08-22T21:07:02.897-07:002009-08-22T21:07:02.897-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.one busy momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18087795055010641099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80275956182838610702009-08-22T18:23:12.180-07:002009-08-22T18:23:12.180-07:00a brother in progress?!?!?!?
Hmmmm. Now that'...<i>a brother in progress?!?!?!?</i><br /><br />Hmmmm. Now that's an interesting turn of phrase. I've heard of brothers in arms, brothers in law and brothers at odds, but never of brothers in progress. <br /><br />Erring brethren? Baptism of desire? Rome just called so loudly it split my eardrums.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-17084814181595295512009-08-22T10:32:05.653-07:002009-08-22T10:32:05.653-07:00@ Kent Brandenburg:
I hope it is okay that I am c...@ Kent Brandenburg:<br /><br />I hope it is okay that I am copying the final quote of your #5 installment.<br /><br />This:<br /><br /><i>We can’t love God if we don’t keep His commandments. He that loves God will keep all of His Words, Sayings, and Commands (John 14:15, 21, 24). Who are we to tell God what is important and what isn’t important? God said that He was more important than man, but that was it. Of course, if we don’t receive Him or believe in Him, we will be eternally punished. Those who receive the greatest punishment will be those who had the greatest opportunity to receive Him, but didn’t. For those who do receive Him, they will be judged based on their faithfulness to what He said—everything that He said. </i><br /><br />...has often haunted me. On the one hand, I know I don't keep all of God's commands. But it is my desire. On the other hand, I absolutely believe that how well I choose to obey my Lord indicates my level of devotion to Him.<br /><br />You make a good point in saying that love for God must come first. I am learning that (if I am listening to Him) He makes it quite clear when it is time to join hands and when it is time to walk away. <br /><br />I believe it was Stuart who pointed out that the Good Shepherd's sheep hear (and heed) His voice :o)<br /><br />James 4 made it pretty clear that "Christian" fights and quarrels come from self-centeredness. We are willing to beat each other up in order to get our own way rather than to bring honor to God.<br /><br />I used to wonder what "working out one's salvation with fear and trembling" meant--since we obviously can't work FOR salvation. But I believe the picture is becoming more clear these days. <br /><br />I'm starting to think that who I am and am not supposed to call "brother" will become rather apparent if I first am familiar with my Father...after all, even natural children tend to bear at least some resemblance to their parents.<br /><br />Rambling again... and my word verification is "ideut"? Guess I'd better move on.<br /><br />HeatherCraig and Heatherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11962442989291080899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67462103508888812442009-08-22T09:12:10.881-07:002009-08-22T09:12:10.881-07:00I think this is an important question and have att...I think this is an important question and have attempted to think through scripture on it and to read much in history about it also. First, in the context of "live peaceably" at the end of Romans 12, we are talking about relating with unbelievers beginning in v. 14, those who persecute us and despitefully use us, with whom we are not to seek vengeance but overcome evil with good, something parallel to what we see Jesus say in the Sermon on the Mount in Luke 6:27-30. I do believe that love rejoices in the truth, so that we can rejoice in the truth of someone even if we don't take all the same practical positions as he. That is to have a spirit of reconciliation and forbearance. Romans 14:1 is dealing with non-scriptural issues. We are to receive those who take a different position than we in a matter of liberty.<br /><br />I don't believe that scripture supports a tertiary/primary doctrine type of teaching. I believe we can see that there are foundational doctrines, but I don't see in scripture a doctrine of "ranking doctrines" for purposes of unity and/or separation. I see the opposite. Scripture reveals the technical character of God, a God that is very serious about the details. I don't believe that this means that we cut people off in separation, but it does mean that real unity (not just spiritual oneness) is found in more than just the essentials.<br /><br />I've explored this subject here in five parts:<br /><br />http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/search?q=%22Secondary%2C+Tertiary%2C+or+Essential%3F%22<br /><br />I am 100% on topic and I would enjoy and appreciate it if I might not be confronted on a subject unrelated to the thread.Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-65604925736161982412009-08-22T07:55:47.283-07:002009-08-22T07:55:47.283-07:00DJP said As to calling me Dan, I absolutely do rel...DJP said <i>As to calling me Dan, I absolutely do release you. Only one blogger calls me "Mr. Phillips," and that's to communicate seething rage.</i><br /><br /> I will hereby cease from addressing you as "Mr Phillips". This blog has stirred up many emotions--but so far, seething rage has not been one of them.<br /><br />HCraig and Heatherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11962442989291080899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78124523579014290882009-08-22T07:34:25.758-07:002009-08-22T07:34:25.758-07:00Stefan:
Thank you for taking the time to speak di...Stefan:<br /><br />Thank you for taking the time to speak directly to my concerns.<br /><br />It does appear that the cyber-world has an inordinately large population of wolves. I've been bitten more than once.<br /><br />But God has used them to hone and purify my faith in Him alone--and teach me some much needed lessons about myself!<br /><br />I do get rattled easily, partly because I recently had to admit that most of what I "knew" was hand-me-down information that I had not personally examined and proven according to Scripture. Everything has to be taken off the shelf, dusted and scrutinized before it can be put back. <br /><br />For now, when I skin my knees, my only choice is to run back to Daddy and ask "Is that guy telling the truth?" Maybe that is the way it is always supposed to work?<br /><br />Interestingly, when the darkness seems to be nearly suffocating, that is when the Light of God's truth is most obvious and I am most ready to accept it. And it shines through the people God has placed around me. <br /><br />For the most part, the posting/discussions here have nailed some things I have recently been working through. I don't believe it was an accident that I felt "drawn" to click the "Pyromaniac" button on a blog I don't normally visit. <br /><br /><br />I am thankful to have been allowed to participate in the discussion.<br /><br />HeatherCraig and Heatherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11962442989291080899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72343312125243991042009-08-22T04:47:40.449-07:002009-08-22T04:47:40.449-07:00Some resources along the line of what Phil was tal...Some resources along the line of what Phil was talking about in this post might be a couple of books by Martin Lloyd Jones. I'm thinking of "Truth Unchanged, Unchanging" and "The Basis of Christian Unity".Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86513680491405210582009-08-22T02:09:33.309-07:002009-08-22T02:09:33.309-07:00Heather:
Assurance is a very, very precious gift ...Heather:<br /><br />Assurance is a very, very precious gift of the Holy Spirit, and when a false teacher causes a believer to worry about his or her assurance, that is a very, very serious thing...which is the only reason I'm up at 1:45 in the morning writing this, when I should have already gone to sleep.<br /><br />You and Mike are both new commentors here, and speaking for myself, I have enjoyed reading both of your insights very much (not to mention your inadvertently humorous interactions!).<br /><br />What happened yesterday and today was very upsetting to see, because as someone who is apparently just trying to figure this stuff out (yourself), you got drawn into the attacks of a false teacher, and although he wasn't preying on you specifically (I mean to the exclusion of the rest of us), his tactics evidently had an effect on you.<br /><br />His tactic seems to be to try to get us to question our assurance of salvation, in order to bring us around to see things from his unbiblical* point of view. One very, very good thing about this blog is that its shepherds (and two of them would probably blush at being called shepherds) are very careful to keep the wolves at bay, and create an iron-sharpening-iron environment for the rest of us. Differing views are welcomed, but not hostile disagreements.<br /><br />Regardless of the substance of what was being discussed, not being able to immediately see some point of doctrine (true or false) or come up with a quick, A+ answer to a question should not cause you to worry about your spiritual state.<br /><br />It's true that Internet Calvinism often appears to be overly intellectualized, but it's first and foremost about the Gospel. When it comes down to brass tacks, all that matters is knowing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, our Lord and Saviour who died on the Cross for our sins, was buried, and raised on the third day—and that is wellspring of sweet, precious assurance, as well.<br /><br />The Lord God will preserve His saints to the end, for if He chose you before the foundation of the world and elected you to salvation in spite your own unworthiness to be saved to eternal life, and gave His own Son Jesus Christ to bear the penalty for your sins unto death on the Cross, and through the Holy Spirit granted you the gift of repentance and faith leading to salvation (and if you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, then all this is axiomatically true), then He will preserve you until Jesus Christ returns or calls you home. He has made an everlasting covenant that He will never break.<br /><br />*By the way, there are some fine believers (one whom I know and love dearly) who hold to an unlimited atonement and particular redemption—often called "four-point Calvinism"—but don't claim the Bible teaches some particular formulation of the Gospel that it doesn't teach anywhere, then claim that anyone who disagrees is a heretic. For myself—and I'm nobody, so don't take my word for it—I'll stick with limited atonement.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12553095742594750682009-08-22T01:57:29.287-07:002009-08-22T01:57:29.287-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53066442231066613092009-08-21T23:57:51.165-07:002009-08-21T23:57:51.165-07:00I am tempted to break them into 3 catagories, thos...I am tempted to break them into 3 catagories, those doctrines that the Scripture warns that those who hold to them, have "fallen from grace", or "will not inherit the Kingdom of God". <br /><br />Those doctrines that mess folks up, like the "word faith" foolishness.<br /><br />And those relatively minor issues like the pre, mid or post tribulation views. <br /><br />I think it is in dividing the latter two where the challenge liesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36221203160407581092009-08-21T23:22:00.041-07:002009-08-21T23:22:00.041-07:00Heather, the Bible does not say it, Stuart thinks ...<i>Heather, the Bible does not say it, Stuart thinks that Martin Luther said it, and that settles it.</i><br /><br />I see. Thanks for clearing that up. Sometimes I read stuff like that and start to sweat that I am some sort of false convert because I don't see what is being claimed.<br /><br /><br /><br /><i>and i knew you were kidding because i am so lovable that hardley anyone gets mad at me, ever, really.</i><br /><br />LOL! Good. It can be easy to end up with my keyboard in my mouth when I am unfamiliar with the personalities of other bloggers.<br /><br />Glad to hear that you are of a mild and gentle disposition--like that baby shampoo that cleans your hair but doesn't make you cry when it gets in your eyes... <br /><br /><br />Is it okay to share an off-site address to a relevant video clip that I saw this afternoon?<br /><br />I see you all aren't shy about deleting rule-breaking comments, so I'll leave it here and assume you will do whatever is appropriate.<br /><br />http://theviolenttakeitbyforce.blogspot.com/2009/08/is-your-theology-idol.html<br /><br />HeatherCraig and Heatherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11962442989291080899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-71086827658085849612009-08-21T22:44:47.577-07:002009-08-21T22:44:47.577-07:00...Shepherd's Conference session......Shepherd's Conference <i>session</i>...Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-37197553218295625312009-08-21T22:44:16.023-07:002009-08-21T22:44:16.023-07:00Joel:
It is presumptuous of me to reply on Phil&#...Joel:<br /><br />It is presumptuous of me to reply on Phil's behalf, but the answer to your question might lie in his 2005 Shepherd's Conference, "Dead Right: The Failure of Fundamentalism." Transcript and audio available from <a href="http://www.thegracelifepulpit.com/philarticles.htm" rel="nofollow">this page</a>; it's the 8th item down from the top.<br /><br />Fast forward to page 10, where he covers the early history of the movement—which began as simply part of the overall conservative reaction to the liberalization that was happening in mainline churches in the early 20th century—and its early doctrinal development. (And don't be misled by the title: he treats the movement's history fairly evenhandedly.)Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2722887650610593392009-08-21T22:23:09.317-07:002009-08-21T22:23:09.317-07:00Phil,
You said:
"But search for serious mat...Phil,<br /><br />You said:<br /><br />"But search for serious material that carefully discusses biblical guidelines for making such distinctions wisely, and you'll come up mostly dry"<br /><br />Great book idea. How about writing it - FAST!<br /><br />Seriously. <br /><br />This issue is huge where I live - and has been taken to absurd levels. Pre-trib folks not on speaking terms with the post-trib tribe. 'skirts only' women refusing to associate with 'pant wearing' women. Christians desiring to fight the good fight and defend the faith...but not knowing what to defend. <br /><br />Here, we major in the minors and are collectively straining out the knat and swallowing the camel. It would be so refreshing to have a clear 'line in the sand'. This much defend, all else -peace.one busy momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18087795055010641099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3021211685441326242009-08-21T17:28:44.471-07:002009-08-21T17:28:44.471-07:00Phil: It would seem that the only way to be faithf...Phil: <b><i>It would seem that the only way to be faithful to all the above commands is to have a sound and biblical understanding of how to distinguish between core doctrines and peripheral ones.</i></b><br /><br />I think this is what systematic theology attempts to do. It draws on the foundations from Scripture and looks to the development of doctrine over time to produce a complete and versitile view as possible which can be applied both broadly and particularly. Many systematic theological systems have been developed in Christian history and they have dealt with the issues of their time.<br /><br />The problem is systematic theological works are very hard to write and take a LOT of time. I think Reymond's was the last recent one written. Oh, and yeah, they also take a lot of time read and go through.CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01912897040503058967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20016872404033469692009-08-21T16:49:10.153-07:002009-08-21T16:49:10.153-07:00Phil,
Maybe we can get back on your topic now?
I a...Phil,<br />Maybe we can get back on your topic now?<br />I am wondering why the fundamentalists felt a need to start a movement and layout their fundamentals without first reiterating Reformation slogans, in particular 'Scripture Alone' and 'Faith Alone'.<br /><br />Do you think that they were deliberately trying to distance themselves from the reformers, or did they just take these truths for granted?<br /><br />I don't mean to say that any of them would have disagreed with the reformation principals but none of the fundamentalist circles I have been in have come close to emphasizing them.joelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02579861380173440968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-25392552193384900442009-08-21T15:46:39.952-07:002009-08-21T15:46:39.952-07:00Mike: Has anyone seen the movie Scanners?
cuz my ...Mike: <b><i>Has anyone seen the movie Scanners?<br /><br />cuz my ears and eyes are starting to bleed.</i></b><br /><br />LOL!CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01912897040503058967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-5254547532275023442009-08-21T15:25:24.446-07:002009-08-21T15:25:24.446-07:00He would now, certainly.He would now, certainly.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-15034801282058355292009-08-21T15:21:59.601-07:002009-08-21T15:21:59.601-07:00"I would only say"Who cares what Luther ..."I would only say"Who cares what Luther said?" to someone who is in a Luther cult, such as Stuart seems to be. And that, to make a point:"<br /><br />And it's a very good point indeed. <br /><br />Stuart put's a mere man on the par with Scripture. Very foolish indeed.<br /><br />Martin would sternly rebuke Stuart methinks.<br /><br />"Not to us, O Lord, not to us, but to your name give glory,<br />for the sake of your steadfast love and your faithfulness!"<br /><br />"I will bow down toward Your holy temple<br /> And give thanks to Your name for Your lovingkindness and Your truth;<br />For You have magnified Your word according to all Your name."donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.com