tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post4359914693832820152..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Preaching the Good News? Part TwoPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger154125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-4912392263484019042009-01-02T21:55:00.000-08:002009-01-02T21:55:00.000-08:00Glory to the all-wise God. May He bless the seed y...Glory to the all-wise God. May He bless the seed you sowed.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23568531876654552242009-01-02T18:42:00.000-08:002009-01-02T18:42:00.000-08:00just wanted to chime in, Dan, and tell you that la...just wanted to chime in, Dan, and tell you that last night when two Mormon elders came to my front door I thought of your post and invited them in to witness to them.<BR/><BR/>It went pretty much the same way yours did--they wanted to argue that the Gospel had been 'lost,' but couldn't give any real evidence of that, couldn't make good sense of what the Scriptures were saying, and so forth. I got to pray for them, though, and that was special--I'm praying for them still.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for challenging me on this.LanternBrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14727003028902907286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-14291446842264409232008-03-11T19:41:00.000-07:002008-03-11T19:41:00.000-07:00Mike-John 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but ju...Mike-<BR/><BR/>John 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”<BR/><BR/>Therefore, do not judge unless you are willing to be judged with the same judgement with which you judge.<BR/><BR/>You call me a liar by saying that I do not speak according to truth, I say the same of you, therefore, do not judge unless you are willing to be judged by the same measure by which you judge...<BR/><BR/>I do not mind that you call me a liar...<BR/><BR/>Let us then use the balances that the Lord has given us, The Bible, and only the Bible. It is a measure that we both agree is the Word of God. So, we can judge, but our judgement must be done rightly, not by appearances, but by the Word of God, which is the discerner of the thoughts and the intents of the hearts of men.Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22924744045567094022008-03-11T15:56:00.000-07:002008-03-11T15:56:00.000-07:00I would be interested in finding out what he consi...I would be interested in finding out what he considers to be lies. From what I have seen posted here, there are no lies, no deceptions. It is sad when the Word of God is construed as being lies!pastorbrianculverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07325788116682801754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-52288635700095908752008-03-11T13:14:00.000-07:002008-03-11T13:14:00.000-07:00It is not yours to say that I am not of God. Matth...It is not yours to say that I am not of God. Matthew 7:1 states that. Judge not that ye be not judged. You think that because we invite people to pray and ask of God to know truth, that we are seeking after signs? We are only following the counsel to ask, and to trust in the Lord. It would seem that we are going to have to part ways my friend. I will continue to ponder on your words and hope you would do the same with mine, but the conversation seems to be drifting towards contention. Which is never something I was looking forth. I just wanted to let the people reading this blog know what we really believe. I see truths mixed with lies throughout this page. We are christians and believe in Salvation through Christ and none else. Any comment otherwise is made in ignorance. And that is the last you will hear from me. May God be with us both until we meet again.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02588632038195077689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46277357330814144252008-03-11T12:50:00.000-07:002008-03-11T12:50:00.000-07:00"If ye love me, keep my commandments." The Greek h..."If ye love me, keep my commandments." <BR/><BR/>The Greek here uses a word that is not conditional. IF is better rendered, THROUGH. Or, IN SUCH CASE, or, AS. The phrase then is. <B><I>(As you are)(Through)(In such case,) loving me you are keeping my commandments.</B></I> The word love, and keep are in the aorist tense, meaning an ongoing thing that was begun in the past and continues without end. Or, it can mean a perfectly completed action in the past, Hebrews 12:2. In either case, it is not something that may or may not be done, but rather the natural condition of the thing that is indicated.<BR/><BR/>"I will still continue each day of my life to try to be obedient to the commandments that he has given us through the scriptures..."<BR/><BR/>Why? Jesus Christ has fulfilled all the righteousness that God requires of you. By asserting that you try, are you asserting that Christ's life lived for you is not sufficient; Galatians 3:3:<BR/><BR/>18 And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’” 21 And he said, “All these I have kept from my youth.” 22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 23 But when he heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich. 24 Jesus, seeing that he had become sad, said, “How difficult it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God! 25 For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 26 Those who heard it said, <B><I>“Then who can be saved?”</B></I> 27 But he said, “What is impossible with men is possible with God.”<BR/><BR/>Have you sold everything, given to the poor? Have you keep, without exception, everyone of the commandments; James 2:10. And what about the disciples? Not even they thought that they had. They understood that even if a man has kept all the commandments it was worthless, he would still have himself. To which Jesus replied that, yes indeed it is impossible for a man to sell all that he has, that is to keep the commmandments of Christ perfectly as the law requires. But it is not impossible for God.<BR/><BR/>"to follow the men he has called as prophets and apostles today."<BR/><BR/>Are you sure they are prophets?<BR/><BR/>The Mormon belief in a plurality of gods runs against all that is contained in the Scripture. You say you believe the Bible, quote our Lord's words from it, do you believe also: "I am the Lord, and there is no other, <B><I>besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know,</B></I> from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the Lord, and there is no other."<BR/><BR/>Now you say that you believe the Bible, do you believe what Isaiah spoke? Put aside for a moment your extra-revelations.<BR/><BR/>You say one thing and I say another. You say you know the truth, and I say you're a liar. In either case, to whom do you look for truth? Scripture says that it is not given for any private interpretation: "And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."<BR/><BR/>That means that neither you nor I nor any prophet nor apostle can interpret it for us, as Paul said: "But even if we (I) or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." Then where shall we go?<BR/><BR/>"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of <B><I>the only Son</B></I> from the Father, full of grace and truth."<BR/><BR/>"Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."<BR/><BR/>“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me...even the Spirit of truth, <B><I>whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.</B></I> You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you...When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come..."<BR/><BR/>"We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error..."<BR/><BR/>Do you have the Spirit of Truth? Because you have said, and your religion teaches you, that while you are still in the world if you ask the father will give you a sign. But, Jesus said, a wicked and perverse generation seeks for a sign and none will be given it except that he does the will of God. And no one can know the will of the Father except the Spirit is in him. Part of the will of God is that a man calls upon his name and part of the will of God is that he believe on him whom the Father has sent. It is a commandment. But a wicked and perverse generation cannot see the sign though they ask, because as it is written in Isaiah, God has blinded their eyes so that they cannot see, and stopped their ears so the cannot hear lest the see with their eyes and understand what they hear and turn and be saved. Instead God has reserved it to those who have been born again.<BR/><BR/>So, when did you come to understand. Before, or after you were born again? Because unless a man has the Spirit he is none of Christ's and to have the Spirit one must be born of God. So that, Paul writes that we have been given the mind of Christ so that we can understand, because the fleshly man cannot understand the things of God for they are foolishness to him. Indeed he cannot obey the commandments, because he neither understands nor is willing to submit to them. So, how is it that you heard and then were established? Because, unless the foundation is layed, it is as if a man built his house upon sand. It cannot stand. And no one can lay any foundation other than the one which was laid, by Christ.<BR/><BR/>So, tell me again, that I am a liar. And that I do not know the Christ who is in me. For that is what Christ would do: Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”<BR/><BR/>MikeStrong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-17649105213796280182008-03-11T10:57:00.000-07:002008-03-11T10:57:00.000-07:00The Jesus which is the brother of Lucifer is unabl...The Jesus which is the brother of Lucifer is unable to save anyone. It is only Jesus as found in the bible that can save. The worst mistake is going back to the fold of mormonism. Mormonism teaches that we are spirit babies in heaven awaiting earthly bodies, but Scriptures tells us otherwise...<BR/>that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. A man must be born again. The first birth is the natural birth the second is the spiritual birth, it is not the other way around. We do not have a spiritual being first, then a natural birth and then another spiritual birth. That would make three births and that is not biblical.pastorbrianculverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07325788116682801754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72432084497048226452008-03-11T09:53:00.000-07:002008-03-11T09:53:00.000-07:00I understand the concept of being born again and h...I understand the concept of being born again and having a change of heart and a change of life as you bring Christ into your life. How you must put off the old man.<BR/><BR/>But let me tell you something, I left The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints once a few years back, and that was single-handidly one of the worst decisions I have ever made in my life. I suffered the pains of a damned soul, and had no idea. I went on that way for probably 2 or 3 years wandering in darkness. Thankfully, through the mercy of a loving God, I was invited back into the fold and able to repent of my shortcomings. At that point I began to feel more love, joy, peace, longsuffering, temperance, goodness, and faith that I hadn't had in my life in a long time. It just so happens that those are those "feelings" that the Mormons are always talking about. They claim to have felt something that led them where they are. Come to find out that is how the bible describes the fruit of the spirit, with the addition of meekness and goodness. <BR/>So as I said before, leaving this church was one of the worst decisions that I have ever made. I'm one to learn from my mistakes and try not to do them again. So I won't be making the mistake of leaving Christ's church again. You may not think that it is His church, but my salvation doesn't depend on you or any other man, it is entirely dependant on Jesus the Christ. I have been born again and cleansed through the blood of my Lord and Saviour. I have confessed in with my mouth that Jesus in Lord, and I believe in my heart that God raised him from the dead. I will still continue each day of my life to try to be obedient to the commandments that he has given us through the scriptures, and to follow the men he has called as prophets and apostles today. I do that because I love God. And as Jesus said himself, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." So I will continue to rely on Jesus Christ and what I have been taught by the Holy Spirit as I have read the scriptures and prayed to understand. My hope and prayer is that someday all of you will do the same.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02588632038195077689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41508306035681053092008-03-11T06:57:00.000-07:002008-03-11T06:57:00.000-07:00Yes Mike, I answered your question, you just can't...Yes Mike, I answered your question, you just can't hear it.Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69866854318309574472008-03-11T00:47:00.000-07:002008-03-11T00:47:00.000-07:00You never answered my question.You never answered my question.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02588632038195077689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27502432623419756802008-03-10T15:20:00.000-07:002008-03-10T15:20:00.000-07:00Mike-Right here: Do you not know that you are God'...Mike-<BR/><BR/>Right here: Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?<BR/><BR/>What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.<BR/><BR/>Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.<BR/><BR/>And this is how one is saved: For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”<BR/><BR/>But, for someone to understand this a miracle must happen: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”<BR/><BR/>Because: None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written,<BR/><BR/>“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—<BR/><BR/>these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ...<BR/><BR/>so then for those who have the mind of Christ: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set (us) free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.<BR/><BR/>Finally, if today you have heard his voice repent and do not doubt but be believing, for God sent his only Son, who alone is the fulness of the Godhead in human form, to be the full payment for your sin, that all who are believing in Him should not die but have eternal life.<BR/><BR/>We've been here all along, Mike, come home.Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8415212533810293112008-03-10T14:10:00.000-07:002008-03-10T14:10:00.000-07:00Well all of us who have read the bible know that C...Well all of us who have read the bible know that Christ only established one church while on the earth. That one church was spread by the apostles throughout many countries, but was still all the same doctrine. Where is that church today?Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02588632038195077689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55222015398883232972008-03-10T12:38:00.000-07:002008-03-10T12:38:00.000-07:00that's exactly right strongtower! When I became a...that's exactly right strongtower! When I became a mormon I was convinced by the holy spirit that the book of mormon was true. But when I was saved, I was convinced by the Holy Spirit! The difference being, the mormon experience was to verify a "book" the second was to acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord. Satan is able to give people "good feelings" and mormons need to be very careful about seeking a "feeling" instead of seeking Truth by reading the Bible and only the Bible! Mormons will deny many of the things that Joseph Smith Jr taught as well as the teachings of Brigham Young because their teachings are an embarassment to the church (people used to live on the sun and the moon!) Just realize that when they quote verses about false prophets bearing bad fruit, in all honesty, they think they are bearing good fruit which means they must be the true church. What they don't realize is that they are worshipping a false god. They are not worshipping the Jesus of the Bible. They are worshipping the brother of Lucifer. Which means they are breaking the 2nd Commandment and are guilty of breaking God's Law. That is not good fruit!pastorbrianculverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07325788116682801754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26092332546864157472008-03-10T12:12:00.000-07:002008-03-10T12:12:00.000-07:00Mike- I have prayed, and the Lord by the Spirit to...Mike- I have prayed, and the Lord by the Spirit told me that you have believed a lie.<BR/><BR/>I do not yell or cuss or persecute Mormons by any means. My great-grandfather was a scout for Brigham Young, my family history is Mormon right back to NY. When I entertain LDS missionaries they always leave weeping or shaken after I open the Scriptures to them. Why do you think that is the case? Could it be that they finally saw the Lord in the Word rather than being blinded by it?Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1457195496964306812008-03-10T12:03:00.000-07:002008-03-10T12:03:00.000-07:00I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Lat...I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints better known as "Mormons" Unlike most of you I believe it to be true. For those of you who have had a conversation with the missionaries from our church you have proably been introduced to a scripture in the last chapter of the Book of Mormon. <BR/>http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moro/10<BR/>For those of you who take the time to read verses 3-5 you will see that there is an exhortation to "...ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Chrst, if these things are not true..." For any of you who have ever read the bible you will recognize that as the way that Christ taught us to pray. So the invitation is along the same lines as spoken in The Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." Prayer isn't a thoughtless phrase spoken to some unknown force, but to "Our Father which art in heaven" Many people are much too casual with prayer and end up being misled. Satan has great power to deceive as evidenced many times throughout scripture, and you have probably seen him trying to deceive you in your lives. For those of you who just thought it, that isn't what is happening now. Follow the counsel spoken in 1 John 4:1 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." <BR/><BR/>As spoken on this blog by somebody else, we believe that there has been a restoration of Christ's original church and that propehts and apostles have been called by Christ today, just as they were called by Christ in during his eathly ministry. Just as 1 John 4:1 says there are many false prophets gone out into the world. Matthew 7 says something similar. And it gives us direction on how we can know the false prophets from the true prophets. "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." The Book of Mormon is a "fruit" of Joseph Smith. It's truth proves the truthfulness of The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints. Read it and if you profess a belief in God, then pray about it and find out for yourself the truth. You aren't going to find it on this site, it is going to come from God. "Ask and it shall be given you; seek and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you..." <BR/><BR/>Ephesians 2:19-20 says that the foundation of Christ's church is built upon the apostles and prophets and that Jesus Christ himself is the chief cornerstone. That is how Christ set up his church. A church set up in a different way than the way Christ set up his church is a red flag that there is some deception going on. <BR/><BR/>As for a belief that the scripture ended and that the last few verses of Revelations are proof of that, take a look at Deuteronomy 4:2 which also says not to add unto the word or take away from it. So if you are to interpret the last few verses of Revelations to mean that nothing else is supposed to be written than that would mean we would have a much shorter bible. We would only have 4 different books and a couple chapters to a 5th. <BR/><BR/>We don't try to deceive people, we show them what we believe and allow them the opportunity to exercise their God-given agency. Take it or leave it. We aren't trying to force anything, but at the same time it would be awful selfish of us to keep quiet. We spend our time in church teaching one another about Christ. Our motivation lies in nothing other than a belief in Christ and a desire to develop a stronger relationship with our Lord and Saviour. Whereas I have had the opportunity to attend the worship services of other denominations in a desire to understand their beliefs better, but instead I get an earful from the pulpit of talk about how wrong the Mormons are. Politicians use slander to retain power. WWJD? Spend your time in church and teach about Christ. If you don't believe the Book of Mormon is scripture, then open up the Bible and teach the congregation about Jesus Christ. Help everyone present in that room to understand their purpose in life. Let them know why they are here on earth, where they came from, and where they are going. If you don't know your purpose in life and would like to, then talk to a couple of those men in white shirts with little black name tags who are out there supporting themselves, receiving no compensation for giving up 2 years in the prime of their lives to get yelled at, cussed out, have things thrown at them, and undergo many other persecutions by people who think they are mislead young men on the highway to hell. They would love to tell you about the purpose of life. The Pharisees and the Sauducees persecuted Christ and his apostles believing they were in the service of God, and I fully believe there is a direct relation today to the persecution that is directed to the Mormons. <BR/><BR/>I came to a knowledge for myself that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is Christ's church on the earth today as a teenager and I still retain that belief. I believe that Christ is my Lord, Saviour, and my advocate with the Father. I know the Book of Mormon is true because I have read it many a time and prayed about it many a time. The Jesus I believe in isn't some "other Jesus" it is the Jesus who fed the 5,000 and who walked on water, the same Jesus Christ who suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane and died on the cross at Calvary. If any of you believe that those beliefs are in some way evil, I am sorry to hear that.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02588632038195077689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80019793937214193252008-01-24T11:38:00.000-08:002008-01-24T11:38:00.000-08:00good point Rick!good point Rick!pastorbrianculverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07325788116682801754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-60357099340623070212008-01-24T10:30:00.000-08:002008-01-24T10:30:00.000-08:00I am a first-time poster here having just discover...I am a first-time poster here having just discovered the Pyromaniacs blog. I thoroughly enjoyed this post and the subsequent comments.<BR/><BR/>I want to stress that Apologetics can, and does, work on Mormons. I know....it was through a couple of really good Christian apologetics websites that I began to SERIOUSLY examine my Mormon faith. God opened my eyes to the truth and I was saved out of the Mormon church two years ago.<BR/><BR/>The difficulty in witnessing to Mormons is that the majority are generational.....meaning their Mormon faith has been passed down in the family for some time and they are heavily indoctrinated from a very young age in what to say and how to respond to criticism of their faith.<BR/><BR/>Amazingly, very few Mormons look beyond the surface beliefs. Inquisitiveness is discouraged because church leadership knows that if one starts delving too deep into Mormon history and doctrinal statements made by earlier church leaders, glaring discrepancies and undeniable inconsistencies arise that cannot be ignored.<BR/><BR/>I also wanted to reiterate what someone else here already said. If you are going to engage a Mormon in discussion it is vitally important that you understand the way they define common terms used in Christian circles. For example, Strategem made the point that Mormonism is an "earn your own way to heaven" religion to which Alma rightly responded that Mormons believe that SALVATION is given freely through Christ's blood on the Christ. In Mormon theology, it is not SALVATION that is earned, it is EXALTATION. If you are not faithful to the Mormon church, if you have not performed the Temple rituals, if you have not followed the counsel of the living prophet you WILL NOT, according to Mormon theology, dwell in the celestial kingdom, enjoying the prescence of God and ruling over your own planets with your wife(or wives) and children by your side. See the distinction? The question is not one of salvation it is of exaltation. This is just ONE area in which Christians get tripped up in not having an understanding of how Mormon theology redefines terms in order to make them look like a mainstream Christian church.<BR/><BR/>God bless!<BR/><BR/>RickRickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01646570941320637050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44601829801090898322008-01-24T02:26:00.000-08:002008-01-24T02:26:00.000-08:00I don't say they deny deity of Christ, they just "...I don't say they deny deity of Christ, they just "think" they are worshipping the same Jesus as Christians worship. When in fact, it is not. Jesus is NOT a brother of Lucifer.pastorbrianculverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07325788116682801754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-52173277294016211222008-01-24T02:25:00.000-08:002008-01-24T02:25:00.000-08:00Alma,Let's compare something...v. 19. When a city ...Alma,<BR/>Let's compare something...<BR/>v. 19. When a city or society is incorporated, officers are appointed and empowered to act for the common good. A city without government is a chaos. Now this constituting of the government of the church, is here expressed by the delivering of the keys, and, with them, a power to bind and loose. This is not to be understood of any peculiar power that Peter was invested with, as if he were sole door-keeper of the kingdom of heaven, and had that key of David which belongs only to the Son of David; no, this invests all the apostles and their successors with a ministerial power to guide and govern the church of Christ, as it exists in particular congregations or churches, according to the rules of the gospel. Claves regni caelorum in B. Petro apostolo cuncti suscepimus sacerdotes—All we that are priests, received, in the person of the blessed apostle Peter, the keys of the kingdom of heaven; so Ambrose De Dignit. Sacerd. Only the keys were first put into Peter’s hand, because he was the first that opened the door of faith to the Gentiles, Acts 10:28. As the king, in giving a charter to a corporation, empowers the magistrates to hold courts in his name, to try matters of fact, and determine therein according to law, confirming what is so done regularly as if done in any of the superior courts; so Christ, having incorporated his church, hath appointed the office of the ministry for the keeping up of order and government, and to see that his laws be duly served; I will give thee the keys. He doth not say, "I have given them,’’ or "I do now;’’ but "I will do it,’’ meaning after his resurrection; when he ascended on high, he gave those gifts, Ephes. 4:8; then this power was actually given, not to Peter only, but to all the rest, ch. 28:19, 20; Jn. 20:21. He doth not say, The keys shall be given, but, I will give them; for ministers derive their authority from Christ, and all their power is to be used in his name, 1 Co. 5:4. <BR/><BR/>Now, what did Joseph Smith claim?<BR/>“Well, now, examine the character of the Savior, and examine the character of those who have written the Old and New Testaments; and then compare them with the character of Joseph Smith, the founder of this work… and you will find that his character stands as fair as that of any man’s mentioned in the Bible. We can find no person who presents a better character to the world when the facts are known than Joseph Smith, Jun., the prophet and his brother Hyrum Smith, who was murdered with him.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 14 p. 203)<BR/><BR/>“…no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith…. Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance… I cannot go there without his consent.… He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven.” (vol. 7, p. 289)pastorbrianculverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07325788116682801754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-43800573569140368472008-01-23T18:03:00.000-08:002008-01-23T18:03:00.000-08:00Brian,Your response is pretty typical. You throw o...Brian,<BR/><BR/>Your response is pretty typical. You throw out a lot of questionable claims and assume for me my responses. Apologetics by fiat is an uninteresting and ineffective strategy. If you think that Joseph Smith elevated himself to be equal with Jesus by claiming to hold the keys to heaven, do you think Peter was also made equal to Jesus because Peter held the keys to heaven? (see Matthew 16:19) If not, do you have one standard for Joseph Smith and another for the Bible?<BR/><BR/>I think that the Jesus Christ taught by Joseph Smith is absolutely biblical. Because you don’t see LDS perceptions clearly documented in the Bible shouldn’t be a problem—I surmise you believe in the Trinity even though it isn’t mentioned in the Bible either.<BR/><BR/>You claim to be pretty sure about knowing what it is that Mormonism teaches—yet you make several comments that suggest you think Mormons deny the deity of Christ. Of course Jesus is God—that’s the premise of the Book of Mormon stated on its title page: convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD.” (caps in the original.)Alma Allredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11724192086426186057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-35492129011842331832008-01-22T02:05:00.000-08:002008-01-22T02:05:00.000-08:00Alma,Maybe I missed it, but, even if you say the s...Alma,<BR/>Maybe I missed it, but, even if you say the same things as Christians, the fact that the Jesus of mormonism is not the Jesus of the Bible, makes mormonism not Christian. In fact, what it does is breaks the 2nd Commandment. Joseph Smith created a god to suit himself. One that elevates himself to an equal status as Jesus (in that Joseph Smith said "he" holds the keys to heaven).How do you compare your Jesus with that of the Bible? No where in the Bible does it say that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers. No where in the Bible does it say that His blood is not sufficient to cleanse us of all our sins. The Bible clearly states that Jesus is Eternal. No beginning and no end. Don't try to say the mormon faith teaches that, because I know they don't. I know the spin they put on it is that he is eternal in "this" creation. That is not biblical. Jesus is God. The first chapter of God clearly states this fact. I pray that you will spend some time in the Book of John and that your eyes will be opened to the truth of God's Word.pastorbrianculverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07325788116682801754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66525269095438206262008-01-21T21:51:00.000-08:002008-01-21T21:51:00.000-08:00Thanks for your reply Stratagem. I’ve been a Mormo...Thanks for your reply Stratagem. I’ve been a Mormon for nearly 50 years, and your opinion that my faith is an “earn your own way to heaven” doesn’t coincide with what I’ve believed or taught for all that time. I assure you that there are many more passages demonstrating that “salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.” (Mosiah 3:18). If you think there are contradictions to that in the Book of Mormon, demonstrate them.<BR/><BR/>You claim that the canon was closed in the first century. It seems that the failure of the canon to specify either its closure or its content seems to me to indicate otherwise.Alma Allredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11724192086426186057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40136490158487240762008-01-21T08:27:00.000-08:002008-01-21T08:27:00.000-08:00AlmaNice try, but mormonism is most certainly a le...Alma<BR/><BR/>Nice try, but mormonism is most certainly a legalistic, earn your own way to heaven religion. That you can find one verse in the book that suggest otherwise, shows only that the book of mormon is self-contradictory in yet one more way: A book that says everything can easily be used to proof-text any position you want to present, or its opposite, so let's just recognize that this is what you're doing. <BR/>Mormons have a different definition(s) of everything, including salvation vs. what is meant by that word in orthodox Christianity. They also have re-defined who Christ is, what he did, and how you receive the gift of salvation. <BR/>The Canon was closed in the first millennium - the book of Mormon is a spurious counterfeit, no different than the spurious gospels that were written and rejected in the 2nd and 3rd centuries. I'll keep telling people that, until it has rung in every ear...<BR/>Thanks.Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24780881706900041892008-01-18T13:17:00.000-08:002008-01-18T13:17:00.000-08:00SJ Walker asked, "In light of the Galatians passag...SJ Walker asked, "In light of the Galatians passage and Chris's question along with mine, do you want to try and answer that one again?"<BR/><BR/>Chris' question was what the prime error of the judaizers opposed by Paul? I'm not sure the purpose of asking me this question since Chris likely doesn't think me capable of exegesis--but I'd say Paul's opposition is explained in Galatians 2--"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ"--and the judaizers thought that righteousness was by the law. <BR/><BR/>My initial answer to you is still the same. In your rejoinder, you wrote, "That is a little different that what you quoted." That's primarily because I quoted verse 9 and you quoted verse 8.<BR/><BR/>centuri0n asked: "I'd like your short list of what those sources are." centuri0n, I haven't the slightest idea what you're referring to. Could you be more specific?<BR/><BR/>strategem asserted: "That's true, but it (the Book of Mormon) does declare that one can rely upon good works to secure their own salvation, which is a far more serious error." Strategem, I'm pretty familiar with the Book of Mormon, and would be interested if you could provide me with a source supporting such an allegation. Your claim seems quite at odds with what I have found to be its teachings such as, "that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, <B>relying alone upon the merits of Christ,</B> who was the author and the finisher of their faith." (Moroni 6:4) <BR/><BR/>Beth said, "Don't let Alma get away with that one" referring to my comment that the Book of Mormon didn't include teachings that SJ claimed it included. Beth, I've found it's important to be precise when people criticize my faith. You'll note that I didn't deny that this is taught in Mormonism, only that it did not appear in the Book of Mormon. That was the subject of the passage SJ felt was covered by Galatians 1:8. I'll defend that concept as being entirely biblical but I'm not about to agree that doctrines appear in a book unless they actually can be found in them. I wasn't trying to "get away" with anything. Perhaps you could at least grant that I'm acting above board until someone demonstrates otherwise?Alma Allredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11724192086426186057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-946192860617863502008-01-18T12:59:00.000-08:002008-01-18T12:59:00.000-08:00andy said…” First you have to define terms with Mo...andy said…” First you have to define terms with Mormons because they use all the same terms with different meanings. For example, repentance, atonement…”<BR/><BR/>Same bit w/ the EC doncha think.<BR/><BR/>At least you can see them coming (LDS) whereas emergents are so ‘inconspicuously conspicuous’ <BR/>Their MO is more likened to identitity theft ploy, they try to steal faith. Maybe that not a great description, but this is-<BR/><BR/>For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.<BR/><BR/>@DJP<BR/>Who would you rather be stranded w/ in an elevator?ALL FOR ONCE/ ONCE FOR ALLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04509322860189128685noreply@blogger.com