tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post4399849882911704118..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: PropitiationPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21702578338337645242009-06-27T13:56:42.708-07:002009-06-27T13:56:42.708-07:00Solameanie said:
"No, I have to see myself as...Solameanie said:<br />"No, I have to see myself as the Lord sees me. Apart from the cleansing blood of Christ, I am nothing but worthy of His judgment."<br />If you believe that. You're nuts! Why did God create humans that he knew would sin and couldn't live up to his demands. Then when Adam and Eve sin, they receive a "sinful nature" they can't shake off which makes all their children worthy of hell. Why would God do this? Then there's the Calvinist God who is actually glorified in condeming the sinners he did not elect! What kind of pycho--deity is in control here? Someone answer!meangreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00879828346604788410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77126195633022074872007-05-18T03:30:00.000-07:002007-05-18T03:30:00.000-07:00About 3 years ago I dropped into a black hole – fo...About 3 years ago I dropped into a black hole – four months of absolute terror. I wanted to end my life, but somehow [Holy Spirit], I reached out to a friend who took me to hospital. I had three visits [hospital] in four months – I actually thought I was in hell. I imagine I was going through some sort of metamorphosis [mental, physical & spiritual]. I had been seeing a therapist [1994] on a regular basis, up until this point in time. I actually thought I would be locked away – but the hospital staff was very supportive [I had no control over my process]. I was released from hospital 16th September 1994, but my fear, pain & shame had only subsided a little. I remember this particular morning waking up [home] & my process would start up again [fear, pain, & shame]. No one could help me, not even my therapist [I was terrified]. I asked Jesus Christ to have mercy on me & forgive me my sins. Slowly, all my fear has dissipated & I believe Jesus delivered me from my “psychological prison.” I am a practicing Catholic & the Holy Spirit is my friend & strength; every day since then has been a joy & blessing. I deserve to go to hell for the life I have led, but Jesus through His sacrifice on the cross, delivered me from my inequities. John 3: 8, John 15: 26, are verses I can relate to, organically. He’s a real person who is with me all the time. I have so much joy & peace in my life, today, after a childhood spent in orphanages [England & Australia]. God LOVES me so much. Fear, pain, & shame, are no longer my constant companions. I just wanted to share my experience with you [Luke 8: 16 – 17].<BR/><BR/>Peace Be With You<BR/>MickyAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07940745178193985942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-15563339733516895372007-04-25T00:09:00.000-07:002007-04-25T00:09:00.000-07:00Thank you for this very edifying post!Thank you for this very edifying post!amysuzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00828186210363075636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45984514884540558492007-04-24T08:20:00.000-07:002007-04-24T08:20:00.000-07:00Have to agree with Phil on this (both post and com...Have to agree with Phil on this (both post and comment). <BR/><BR/>Ever since becoming a believer I have really held no other view on propitiation. How can you truly be a christian and believe otherwise?David A. Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00465387359523299616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82043429120010905922007-04-24T07:11:00.000-07:002007-04-24T07:11:00.000-07:00Baptist Man,Yeah, but, they use the word "propitia...Baptist Man,<BR/><BR/>Yeah, but, they use the word "propitiation", however they don't mean what we mean by that term (or what the Bible means by it either). So, even those who deny penal substitution will affirm propitiation...John W. Lostushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07487692954588047858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-60398903244107112682007-04-24T00:47:00.000-07:002007-04-24T00:47:00.000-07:00Nice rant. I've never met anybody who had exposur...Nice rant. I've never met anybody who had exposure to the truths of redemption and God's holiness that denied the necessity for propitiation. If they're out there, they need to read this.Baptist Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18439139212922375111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3013131748996407082007-04-23T22:53:00.000-07:002007-04-23T22:53:00.000-07:00Not just a good post, Phil, but one of the best wr...Not just a good post, Phil, but one of the best written I have read. <BR/><BR/>Hebrews 9 speaks of Christ's propitatory sacrifice, how He entered into the most holy place with His own blood to appear in the presence of God for us to sprinkle His blood on the true, heavenly mercy-seat. This is the blood that satisfies the justice of God and thereby turns God's rightful wrath away from us. According to I Peter 1:2, Hebrews 9:14, 10:22 this is also the same blood that we are sprinkled with that cleanses our both our heart and our conscience. This is truly a great salvation, a complete salvation.Morris Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18083884122271855154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27555438365444283952007-04-23T22:12:00.000-07:002007-04-23T22:12:00.000-07:00Every Monday the kids start a new 5 part lesson in...Every Monday the kids start a new 5 part lesson in their Bible course, and interestingly enough, <B>this</B> is their topic for this week, and Hebrews 9::22 is their memory verse also.<BR/><BR/>I love God's timing. <BR/><BR/>:-)Carla Rolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09395062089776262435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-70586218853348009612007-04-23T19:38:00.000-07:002007-04-23T19:38:00.000-07:00Touchstone,Yes indeed, the justice of God is indee...Touchstone,<BR/><BR/>Yes indeed, the justice of God is indeed a sobering thing. I suppose in one sense, it is true that it is "bad news." Jesus Himself said that those who do not believe are "condemned already." Also, the Apostle Paul talks about how those who believe are basically a stench in the nostrils of those who are perishing. The unregenerate are enemies of God according to Scripture. All of this becomes easier to understand and digest when we become saved and have our worldview conform to Scripture under the Holy Spirit's leading. And even then, there is a maturing process. I can remember in my Arminian days long ago, the idea of God choosing His elect was abhorrent to me. Now I can understand it, rejoice in it, and yet be endlessly awestricken with wonder as to how God could choose "a worm like me." <BR/><BR/>I can't even be tongue-in-cheek like Winston Churchill, who said, "We are all worms, but I do believe I am a glowworm." No, I have to see myself as the Lord sees me. Apart from the cleansing blood of Christ, I am nothing but worthy of His judgment.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-70608691998690100132007-04-23T15:45:00.000-07:002007-04-23T15:45:00.000-07:00hVery good post...a proper understanding of God's ...hVery good post...a proper understanding of God's holiness and justice makes the sacrifice that Jesus undertook on our behalf that much more amazing. We have a relatively old song that we sing in our church.<BR/><BR/>We see Your holiness most clearly<BR/>When we see You crucified<BR/>The slaughter of the innocent<BR/>To give the guilty life<BR/>Such severity such kindess<BR/>Lord we thank You that You died<BR/>Perfect justice, perfect mercy, side by side<BR/>Perfect justice, perfect mercy, side by sidelawrencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02269079315500219992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51331387462069542472007-04-23T15:40:00.000-07:002007-04-23T15:40:00.000-07:00Yeesh. He should be named N. T. Writes...and write...Yeesh. He should be named N. T. Writes...and writes...and writes...<BR/><BR/>A little more Pyro punchiness would do the Bishop some good.James Scott Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07641370124346172648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53704123807099771142007-04-23T15:23:00.000-07:002007-04-23T15:23:00.000-07:00Phil, if you do get time, I would be interested in...Phil, if you do get time, I would be interested in more of your thoughts on N.T. Wright's article The Cross and the Charicatures" - especially as I have not read much on the New Perspective, which seems to be relevant to his view.<BR/><BR/>As seen in his article "Redeeming the Cross", Steve Chalke believes that penal substitution was invented by Anselm, modified by Calvin and Hodge, and unknown in the early church. N.T. Wright calls this view "bizarre", but does not seem to comment on Steve Chalke's endorsement of this view.<BR/><BR/>Redeeming the Cross also makes it clear to me that Steve Chalke is rejecting penal substitution. N.T. Wright however, seems to think that Chalke's view "amounts to a form of penal substitution", which is "quite different from other forms of penal substitution such as the mediaeval model of a vengeful father being placated by an act of gratuitous violence against his innocent son." I have not read anything by Steve Chalke that suggests he accepts any form of penal substitution.Ben Stevensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08180387993747753614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-56590185026353521132007-04-23T14:46:00.000-07:002007-04-23T14:46:00.000-07:00Phil said: God's mercy is not some maudlin sentime...<B>Phil said</B>: <I>God's mercy is not some maudlin sentiment that causes Him to forget about His holiness and set aside His righteous anger against sin.</I><BR/><BR/>Exactly.<BR/><BR/>If a king declares that the penalty for some crime is death, and so offenders are thereafter put to death - we see justice in action - for in the just scenario, condemnation is only and always a consequence <I>of the crime</I>.<BR/><BR/>If the king were to arbitrarily forgive some offenders and condemn other offenders for the same crimes it would show that the condemnation meted out by the king was not given as a consequence of the crime, but rather was founded upon the king's fancy.<BR/><BR/>God cannot condemn and forgive arbitrarily because doing so makes condemnation arbitrary, and sin inconsequential (and God unjust).Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06734845463331170748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87239380288990070122007-04-23T12:14:00.000-07:002007-04-23T12:14:00.000-07:00Solameanie,I think that does help. I take refuge (...Solameanie,<BR/><BR/>I think that does help. I take refuge (on many levels) in the assurance that all accounts are finally, ultimately, settled up. That *is* a good thing. It's just a *conflicted* thing, as the implications for me are clear; I've not killed any young girls, but I've certainly transgressed against God and man in plenty of other egregious ways. <BR/><BR/>I was in Fort Myers Beach (for MN Twins Spring Training!) when Couey was sentenced a few weeks ago down that way, so I know exactly what kinds of horrors you are referring to (shudder). But I have a hard time seeing myself as anything but just the "guy in the next cell" to Couey; his crimes were much more violent and dramatic than mine perhaps, but I'm no less condemned by own sins than he is by his. <BR/><BR/>So I accept your point, but will say that for each of us *justice* is a two edged sword. The blade that strikes down the most heinously wicked strikes down the most visibly pious among us as well; we are all heinously wicked at the core. If that's the case, justice is a "mixed bag" -- a good news/bad news thing.<BR/><BR/>Of course, if we avail ourselves of God's grace and realize the expiation of our sins and propitiation of ourselves through Jesus' sacrifice, then the picture is vastly improved: thanks for Jesus, we are spared, mercifully. God's justice won't mean eternal torment and suffering for us. <BR/><BR/>And the deeds of all will still be accounted for.<BR/><BR/>In that, I can definitely nod along with your reference to the cries for the avenging justice of God in Revelation.<BR/><BR/>To track this back to the original post, however, I note that that is a view *arrived* at through the process of repenting, belief and commitment to following Christ. It remains "bad news" for the unsaved to hear the facts about God's justice: they are condemned!<BR/><BR/>That "bad news" is what makes the "good news" good. As it should be. <BR/><BR/>But while I'd demand that the act of propitiation itself was the very center of the Gospel -- the supreme act of love and sacrifice -- I also assert that God's justice was very much *not* the Gospel, but rather a *predicate* for it.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the feedback.<BR/><BR/>-TouchstoneTouchstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03733806892886921425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-75736869449895331292007-04-23T12:05:00.000-07:002007-04-23T12:05:00.000-07:00John W. Lostus: "would you consider the rejection ...<B>John W. Lostus:</B> <I>"would you consider the rejection of penal substitution to be heretical in nature, or just grave error, or would you say there is room among Christians for these kind of differences of opinion?"</I><BR/><BR/>Not having time today to become embroiled in controversy, I'll give you my short answer and then invite anyone who wants to debate the question to go over to <A HREF="http://www.adrian.warnock.info/2007/04/word-alive-and-spring-harvest-to.htm" REL="nofollow">Adrian Warnock's blog, where the subject is already under discussion.</A><BR/><BR/>Here's my short answer:<BR/><BR/>1. "Rejection" of penal substitution is something completely different from ignorance of the doctrine or a hazy understanding of it.<BR/><BR/>2. My views on the vicarious, penal, and propitiatory aspects of the atonement (and my opinions about the historical pedigree of those views) are roughly the same as B. B. Warfield's. He acknowledged that no one from the post-apostolic Church Fathers to the Reformers articulated the idea of penal substitution particularly well or consistently. But all the elements of the doctrine were nonetheless present here and there from the earliest post-apostolic times, and the shifts in emphasis from Jerome to Anselm to Calvin reflect a clear line of development and increasing clarity, rather than a wholesale reinvention of a brand-new atonement-theory.<BR/><BR/>3. And, yes, I would consider a deliberate <I><B>rejection</B></I> of penal substitution (by someone who accurately understands the concept) to be heretical.<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, <A HREF="http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/news/2007/20070423wright.cfm?doc=205" REL="nofollow">the Right Reverend Bishop Tom Wright is worked up about this issue, too.</A> He appears to be saying in one and the same piece that penal and propitiatory elements are indeed necessary to a right understanding of atonement, but that the perspective held by Steve Chalke's critics is "deeply, profoundly, and disturbingly unbiblical."<BR/><BR/>At least I think that's the idea. It's a really long article, and I need to take time (which I don't have today) to digest it properly.<BR/><BR/>You should get your buds over at Triablogue to do a post analyzing the Bishop's comments.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63081403975391345532007-04-23T10:53:00.000-07:002007-04-23T10:53:00.000-07:00My heart soared as I read this excellent post abou...My heart soared as I read this excellent post about our Infinite Creator and Judge and His absolute and holy righteousness!<BR/><BR/>This was a great piece which built nicely upon the Spurgeon tidbit from Sunday.<BR/><BR/>Bravo!Coram Deohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03504564435400500996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-76472994397032458302007-04-23T10:48:00.000-07:002007-04-23T10:48:00.000-07:00Touchstone,Imagine it this way. We often hear of h...Touchstone,<BR/><BR/>Imagine it this way. We often hear of horrific events in the news where there has been some unspeakable cruelty. The John Couey case in Florida comes to mind, where this guy took little Jessica, had his way with her and then left her to suffocate. We wonder (especially when they manage to escape conviction somehow and are freed) when justice will come. <BR/><BR/>That is when rejoicing over God's justice comes into play. We have His promise that by no means will He leave the guilty unpunished. Think of the saints in Revelation who cried out, "How long, how long?" <BR/><BR/>Hope that helps.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88043165415719590242007-04-23T10:33:00.000-07:002007-04-23T10:33:00.000-07:00Excellent post, Phil. God's love for me isn't show...Excellent post, Phil. God's love for me isn't shown merely in the forgiveness of my sin. His love is shown in that His son bore the penalty for my sin. <I>That</I> is what made it possible for my sins to be forgiven.<BR/><BR/>Not to go off on a tangent, but I can see a follow-up post about limited (or particular) atonement and how it relates to the "sufficient for all, efficient for some" argument people like to use.Lee Sheltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11254842261338255019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55193752698748494462007-04-23T09:43:00.000-07:002007-04-23T09:43:00.000-07:00Re: One of the great mysteries not revealed in th...<B>Re: One of the great mysteries not revealed in the Old Testament but fully revealed in the gospel is a clear answer to the age-old question of how forgiveness is possible without compromising the justice of God.</B><BR/><BR/>I wonder whether the OT gets any closer than Isaiah 53:10-11: <I>[10] Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. [11] Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.</I><BR/><BR/>NB: There's an interesting couple of points in v.11a, and maybe they're not so peripheral as all that: In its context, that bit says, "Out of the anguish of <B>Jesus'</B> soul <B>Jesus</B> shall see and be satisfied." 1. Jesus' will is the same as the Father's. 2. Jesus has the same just requirement as the Father, and demands the same satisfaction.Jim Criglerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11437189788683651969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-59813364332282258092007-04-23T09:31:00.000-07:002007-04-23T09:31:00.000-07:00Phil,According to Paul Owen at RefCath.com Christ ...Phil,<BR/><BR/>According to Paul Owen at RefCath.com Christ was not punished for the sins of His people, but was turned over to the power of wicked men and the power of Satan. God did not punish Christ on the cross for the sins of His people though. He died to "propitiate" God's offended holiness, and He died as a sacrifice and in the place of sinners, but was not punished. In other words, Owen denies penal substitution. He holds to a "Christus Victor" position on the atonement. Apparently penal substitution did not gain prominence as the accepted view of the atonement until the 16th century. Anselm and others didn't hold to it. So, in light of this, would you consider the rejection of penal substitution to be heretical in nature, or just grave error, or would you say there is room among Christians for these kind of differences of opinion? <BR/><BR/>ThanksJohn W. Lostushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07487692954588047858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32700687617258489422007-04-23T08:23:00.000-07:002007-04-23T08:23:00.000-07:00THAT WAS EXCELLENT!!!THAT WAS EXCELLENT!!!mark piersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13882538938829765324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-25503076617934048012007-04-23T08:08:00.000-07:002007-04-23T08:08:00.000-07:00I loved your post... right on.Propitiation is the ...I loved your post... right on.<BR/><BR/>Propitiation is the key of the gospel. It is here where my Muslim friends stumble. Because for them, Allah just forgives; not only there is no payment for our sins, but there is none needed. <BR/>If God can forgive without payment for sins, then he's no god. <BR/>If God is not holy and just, then he does not deserve any worship.<BR/>That's why I think angels worship Him by saying "HOLY! HOLY! HOLY!"<BR/>A.W. Tozer once said that all the problems start with a wrong view of God. If you take one of God's attribute out ... he's no longer God.Ben Nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17720758092068979228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-7830883021447029892007-04-23T07:30:00.000-07:002007-04-23T07:30:00.000-07:00An outstanding Monday morning article.An outstanding Monday morning article.David Mohlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05586107161513106957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-7998709595062943202007-04-23T07:18:00.000-07:002007-04-23T07:18:00.000-07:00Great post. Thank you so much.Great post. Thank you so much.Larry Thompsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17681361995005740963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78771704659811161452007-04-23T06:38:00.000-07:002007-04-23T06:38:00.000-07:00Very good point, very well-made, thought-provoking...Very good point, very well-made, thought-provoking and informative. Thank you!DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.com