tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post4490109763617507986..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Reflections on the Gospel, repentance, and two wrecked soulsPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger108125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78903075249367452152010-11-16T07:17:18.041-08:002010-11-16T07:17:18.041-08:00RC,
I can only speak for myself and say I've ...RC,<br /><br />I can only speak for myself and say I've been in the same place myself. I'm thankful that I see the grace of God reflected from our brothers in Christ on here as they deal with my idiotic remarks and my ramblings off-topic. It reminds me of how only God (through the work of Christ and the Holy Spirit) separates me from doing what John Gardner III did (or even worse).Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63941742033029149562010-11-15T13:14:20.723-08:002010-11-15T13:14:20.723-08:00The funny (sad?) thing about that Robert is that w...The funny (sad?) thing about that Robert is that when I picked the name RealityCheck I actually thought I was the one that had something to say. Little did I know how many times I would be the one checking my own reality. <br /><br />If this keeps up I’ll trade the name in for something more appropriate like… <strong><em>CrowEater</em></strong>.Ron (aka RealityCheck)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03274921909241630662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16898070611751862582010-11-15T12:44:46.300-08:002010-11-15T12:44:46.300-08:00I guess you could say you had a reality check. (Y...I guess you could say you had a <b><i>reality check</i></b>. (Yes, poor attempt at corny humor to lighten things up)Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79277099632416925022010-11-15T12:00:39.557-08:002010-11-15T12:00:39.557-08:00Oh, goodness -- no problem, RC. It's all good,...Oh, goodness -- no problem, RC. It's all good, bro.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-38168956034358191292010-11-15T11:58:06.842-08:002010-11-15T11:58:06.842-08:00I had an unexpected guest for the weekend… guilt! ...I had an unexpected guest for the weekend… guilt! Guilt dogged me everywhere I went and no matter what I did mentally to try and satisfy it, it wouldn’t let up. Last week I was unsatisfied with an answer Dan gave me, not because it wasn’t a good one, but because <strong><em>I wanted</em></strong> more. I then confused <strong><em>my want</em></strong> with some deficiency on Dan’s part and questioned his desire to learn more. How ridiculous. Anyone who has spent any time reading the things Dan has written either here on Pyro or at his own blog knows how much he desires to know the things of God. I blew it and I’m sorry.<br /><br />I have removed the idiotic remark and want to say to you personally and publicly Dan… I’m sorry and I hope you can forgive me.Ron (aka RealityCheck)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03274921909241630662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77456401364485012812010-11-15T09:40:26.956-08:002010-11-15T09:40:26.956-08:00The whole question of Salvation for the most wicke...The whole question of Salvation for the most wicked is intresting. Another example that comes to mind is that of "the son of Sam" David Berkowitz and Jeffrey Dahmer. I have actually had a friend of mine who was raised seventh Day Adventest say that Dahmer would never be accepted into Heaven becuese he's murderer personbally I look at it all and think "who are any of us to think where better then anybody else." <br /><br />Honestlly if God's able to save "bad people" that's his perogitive who am I to question His GraceAaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09436011893893390711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39815528890011982142010-11-15T06:27:32.325-08:002010-11-15T06:27:32.325-08:00Hey DJP,
Thanks for this post. I read it after wa...Hey DJP, <br />Thanks for this post. I read it after watching part of an old tv interview of Jeffrey Dahmer. He professed to be saved by the Lord Jesus. <br />I struggle with thoughts about how the Lord (for a time) allows such evil, and had just come to the place of realizing, again, that my wicked thoughts are just as heinous as J.D.'s sins. Praise the Lord for his great love and mercy!<br />Someone else has already quoted the hymn, Rock of Ages...<br /><br />"Nothing in my hand I bring, <br />simply to the cross I cling; <br />naked, come to thee for dress; <br />helpless, look to thee for grace; <br />foul, I to the fountain fly; <br />wash me, Savior, or I die."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-19962472021612647562010-11-13T17:08:23.450-08:002010-11-13T17:08:23.450-08:00"with the flesh [I serve] the law of sin.&quo..."with the flesh [I serve] the law of sin." ("I" in this verse does not refer to "the one who wills to do good" -Michele<br /><br />Sure it does. It refers to me, a sinner saved by grace, and righteous in His sight. Hallelujah!<br /><br />We will disagree until the Lord comes back, or we die.<br /><br />Hope that helps.<br /><br />"Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity<br />and passing over transgression<br />for the remnant of his inheritance?<br />He does not retain his anger forever,<br />because he delights in steadfast love.<br /> He will again have compassion on us;<br />he will tread our iniquities underfoot.<br />You will cast all our sins<br />into the depths of the sea." Micah 7:18-19<br /><br />have a blessed Lord's day in His grace and joy!donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9770584637415318802010-11-13T12:35:12.078-08:002010-11-13T12:35:12.078-08:00continue....
In Conclusion: The Law of Sin vs. T...continue....<br /><br /><br />In Conclusion: The Law of Sin vs. The Law of God<br /> <br />1) The Law of Sin<br /> <br />Paul says in Rom.7:17,20 "sin...dwells in me", and in Rom.7:18 "in my flesh, nothing good dwells", and in Rom.7:21 "evil is present *with* me". <br /> <br />And Paul wraps it up by saying in Rom.7:25 "with the flesh [I serve] the law of sin." ("I" in this verse does not refer to "the one who wills to do good" but to that part of me which is unrenewed, unregenerated, that is, "my flesh")<br /> <br />2) The Law of God<br /> <br />Paul says in Rom.7:12 "the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good".<br /> <br />And he says in Rom.7:14 "the law [of God] is spiritual". <br /> <br />In Rom.7:22, he says, "I delight in the law of God according to the inward man." ("the inward man", as opposed to "the [outward] flesh") <br /> <br />And in Rom.7:23, Paul refers to "the law of my mind".<br /> <br />And Paul wraps it up in Rom.7:25 by saying, "with the mind I myself serve the law of God."<br /> <br />As opposed to the flesh, which cannot be "renewed", the Scriptures say that we can be "transformed by the renewing of our mind". And it is with our mind that we "serve the law of God".<br /> <br />It is with our flesh that we serve the law of sin. (Rom.7:25)<br /> <br />Hope this helps.Michele Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05815737949587713100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74062867540971552682010-11-13T12:32:23.587-08:002010-11-13T12:32:23.587-08:00Hi Don,
You said,
"When I sin, it is not me...Hi Don,<br /> <br />You said,<br /><i>"When I sin, it is not me"?</i><br /><br />So, what do we do with this verse in Romans 7:17?:<br /> <br />"But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me."<br /><br />Paul clarifies it, to answer your question, with this next verse in Romans 7:18:<br /> <br />"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells...".<br /> <br />Paul is making a distinction between "I" ("the one who wills to do good" Rom.7:21) and "my flesh" ("in me, that is, in my flesh" Rom.7:18.)<br /><br />You said:<br /><i>He later says: "So then, I *myself* serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."</i><br /> <br />Exactly. "*I myself* serve the law of God with my mind..."<br /> <br />but<br /> <br />"...with *my flesh* I serve the law of sin." (Rom.7:25)<br /> <br />Not only does Paul say, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in Romans 7:17, "But now it is *no longer I who do it*, but *sin* that dwells in me."<br /> <br />but Paul goes on to say in Romans 7:20:<br /> <br />"Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me."<br /> <br />Now, there are two "I"'s here:<br /> <br />1) "I do what I will not to do"<br /> <br />and <br /> <br />2) "it is *no longer* I who do it"<br /> <br />Go back to #1:<br /> <br />1) I (my flesh) do what I ("the one who wills to do good") will not to do.<br /> <br />and <br /> <br />Go back to #2:<br /> <br />2)...it is no longer I "(the one who wills to do good") who do it.<br /> <br />Then who "in the flesh" is doing the things I will not to do? (Rom.7:20)<br /> <br />Paul gives us the answer twice:<br /> <br />Romans 7:17 and 7:20 "...it is no longer I who do it, but *sin* that dwells in me."<br /> <br /> <br />Paul then reveals to us some of the mystery behind this. He gives us the reason for this:<br /> <br />Romans 7:21, "I find then *a law*, that evil is present with me, *the one who wills to do good."<br /> <br />And then Paul presents the conflict once again, of the "flesh warring against our mind":<br /> <br />Romans 7:22, "For I delight in the law of God according to *the inward man*...<br /> <br />Romans 7:23, "...BUT, I see *another law in my members*, [my flesh] warring against *the law of my mind*, and bringing me into captivity to *the law of sin which is in my members."<br /> <br />Paul then makes this conclusion in Romans 7:25:<br /> <br />"So then, *with the mind* I myself serve the law of God, *but* *with the flesh* the law of sin."<br /> <br />So, as we see in Romans 7:23, there is a war between "the law of my mind" and "the law of sin which is in my members [my flesh]".<br /> <br />There is a war between "I", "the one who wills to do good", and "my flesh".<br /> <br />continued....Michele Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05815737949587713100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-70330674380796682572010-11-13T03:57:47.751-08:002010-11-13T03:57:47.751-08:00Donsands, that's a good point of theological t...Donsands, that's a good point of theological tension. I believe Paul is making a distinction between behavior and identity. The human will is not monolithic, but a conglomeration of inclinations. Paul is casting his identity, and greatest desire, on those inclinations that follow the will of God and he polarizes himself - that is, sets his true identity in Christ apart from that which he is dead to - through the humility of recognizing the part of him that yet sins that he might mortify it.Jim Pembertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446388434272680014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-11230301264531090292010-11-12T20:48:32.305-08:002010-11-12T20:48:32.305-08:00"What I am in my new regenerate spirit is who..."What I am in my new regenerate spirit is who I *really* am. When I sin, it is not me (that is, in my new spirit), it is "sin in me", as the Apostle Paul says in Romans 7:17"<br /><br />"When I sin, it is not me"?<br /><br />He later says: "So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."<br /><br />Paul says, "I myself".<br /><br />That should be clear enough, isn't it.<br /><br />What does Paul feel, and think, when he writes these words?:<br /><br />"To me, though I AM the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things," Eph. 3:8-9<br />It reminds me of Daniel's prayer, when he also repented for the sins of Israel.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12824628438476238782010-11-12T13:46:37.399-08:002010-11-12T13:46:37.399-08:00Dan--This post (the main one, not the comments) is...Dan--This post (the main one, not the comments) is possibly one of the most edifying posts I've ever read. Thank you.Scottjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16376531868844723586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69520648948106706672010-11-12T05:37:15.073-08:002010-11-12T05:37:15.073-08:00Sorry that you feel that way, Reality Check, and t...Sorry that you feel that way, Reality Check, and that you feel your last is an appropriate comment.<br /><br />Regardless, your question has been answered several times, by me and others. Trogdor and Robert have just reworded my answer yet again.<br /><br />So within yourself you have options as to how and whether you'll receive and deal with what's been given you here without cost to you. Meanwhile, in the thread, we need to move on, without further rewordings of the already-answered question or smears of those who've tried to help you.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63406455777452557052010-11-12T05:29:40.502-08:002010-11-12T05:29:40.502-08:00I'm going to piggy-back on trogdor's comme...I'm going to piggy-back on trogdor's comment and say that this also helps us to evangelize better in two ways: <br /><br />1) We realize that God is sovereign and that we don't save...we pray for salvation of the lost because we are dependent upon God to do the work. <br /><br />2) It keeps us focused on God, realizing that He has chosen the elect. We have no control over <b><i>who</i></b> is elect, and that should make us want to present the gospel to <b><i>every</i></b> person in the world. And, just as we know that God has chosen to work through us preaching the gospel, He also works through our prayer. Not in a fashion where our prayer has the power, but where prayer is where we make our petitions known to Him. He has already planned for our petitions <b><i>and</i></b> how He will answer them, but that has no effect on whether or not we pray. <br /><br />We're dealing with the difference of God's perspective and ours here. It is like how free will and God's sovereignty/election come together. I can't wrap my head around that totally, but I know it is true. God chose me before the beginning of time, but I have the responsibility to repent, believe, and follow Jesus as Lord.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-71700974629253526442010-11-12T04:03:15.680-08:002010-11-12T04:03:15.680-08:00I was looking at Romans 10 last night for another ...I was looking at Romans 10 last night for another comment, and realized that it might apply to this latter-thread discussion as well. 10:1 starts us off with:<br /><br />"Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved."<br /><br />Now there are three ways we can go with this.<br /><br />1) <b>Paul didn't believe God was sovereign in election/salvation</b>. There are actually some who hold to this position, and while their arguments are kinda cute and funny, and their zealous attempts to avoid the obvious are awe-inspiring, we're trying to be serious here.<br /><br />2) <b>Paul prayed this <i>in spite of</i> God's sovereignty in election/salvation</b>. As if he was saying, "Yeah, even though I just wrote Romans 9, so obviously I know that this prayer for my lost countrymen is a total waste of time and energy, I'm going to do it anyway. It has no effect and is truly in all aspects a total waste, but I do it anyway."<br /><br />Somehow Paul doesn't strike me as the type to do things which contradict his theology, so he knows in advance will epic fail. Which leaves me with...<br /><br />3) <b>Paul prays this <i>because</i> God is sovereign in election/salvation</b>. In other words, this prayer for the salvation of his lost countrymen is the natural result of his theology of election.<br /><br />I'ma go with option 3. Similar to how Jesus commands us to pray for daily provision (Mat 6:11) just a few words before telling us that God sovereignly controls even the tiniest aspects of the world, providentially cares for the most insignificant parts of creation, and knows our needs even before we do (6:25ff, 10:29-30; cf John 15:16).<br /><br />What Paul and Jesus lead us to do is not to axe "Why should we pray for things over which God is sovereign?", but to pray for it because God is sovereign over it.trogdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452996348717802065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86692052188219564082010-11-12T01:01:02.578-08:002010-11-12T01:01:02.578-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ron (aka RealityCheck)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03274921909241630662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-38923810817059966052010-11-11T19:32:25.013-08:002010-11-11T19:32:25.013-08:00Terry said:
I've even seen and heard MANY over...Terry said:<br /><i>I've even seen and heard MANY over the years say that they, not Paul, were *really* the chief of sinners (a direct contradiction, of course, to the inspired word of God).</i><br /> <br />Terry, <br />It seems like everybody wants to be a Chief (of sinners), but nobody wants to be an Indian (a saint)! <br /> <br />There is Pauline theology, and then there is "Christine" theology, that is "Christine O'Donnell theology", which says "I am you!"<br /> <br />"I am you", "Christine theology" works when speaking on a worldly level: "I'm an average American, and so are you." <br /> <br />But "I am you", "Christine theology", doesn't work when speaking on a spiritual level about Christians, once they are born again, and are new creations in Christ. Now it's, "Praise God! I am no longer you."<br /> <br />What I am in my new regenerate spirit is who I *really* am. When I sin, it is not me (that is, in my new spirit), it is "sin in me", as the Apostle Paul says in Romans 7:17:<br /> <br />"But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me."<br /><br />And Romans 7:18 goes on to say, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells...".<br /> <br /><br />Reality Check said:<br /><i>But certainly you are not suggesting that these things are no longer sins if we do them just because we are Christians?</i><br /> <br />It doesn't mean that when I sin, it is not sin. It simply means that it is "sin in me", in my flesh, and it is my flesh warring against the new me, warring against my new regenerate spirit.<br /> <br />You asked, "How are we different from the murdering rapist John Gardner?" <br /><br />We are different in our spirit. <br /> <br />I think the point that Terry is really trying to make is that to the extent that we acknowledge, understand, reckon, and appropriate our new identity in Christ as born again new creations, alive to God and dead to sin (Romans 6), and now saints, we will have the strength in our new spirit to walk by the spirit, as the Apostle Paul so often instructs us to do.<br /><br />That's the reason for making the distinction that "I am not John Gardner".<br /> <br />But to the extent that we instead focus on "our old man" who "was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with" (Romans 6:6), and call ourselves something that we are not, "sinners" (defined as one who practices sin as an ongoing lifestyle), to that extent we will live somewhat defeated lives, struggling with sin more than we should have to, like the double-minded man who is unstable in all his ways.<br /><br />I know that I am not what I used to be before I was radically saved 31 years ago this month.<br /><br />And John Gardner, if he comes to know the Lord five minutes before he dies, like the thief on the cross, he will find himself with Christ in great glory in Heaven.<br /><br />And at that point, the point at which John should trust in the Lord, I can then say that John Gardner is now just like me.Michele Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05815737949587713100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-52025685705539120142010-11-11T16:13:22.182-08:002010-11-11T16:13:22.182-08:00Robert,
“God didn't just predetermine the sal...Robert,<br /><br />“God didn't just predetermine the salvation of people, but He also predestined the means to bring about that salvation.”<br /><br />Yes... no doubt.<br /><br />“Our prayers might be a part of that”<br /><br />Hmmm, and if they are, how that is possible without taking away from God’s sovereignty is what I’m fussing about.Ron (aka RealityCheck)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03274921909241630662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20783264253744097892010-11-11T15:35:22.861-08:002010-11-11T15:35:22.861-08:00“If there's no point praying for X's salva...“If there's no point praying for X's salvation, because God has already elected or reprobated, then there is no sense praying for anything”<br /><br />How does that figure? One has to do with something… election… that is a done deal and the other has to do with all sorts of things that are not a done deal. You keep tying my questioning of praying for someone’s salvation in with all other prayer despite the fact that I have repeatedly separated them. Is there a reason you keep lumping them together? Do you have to make me a hyper-Calvinist in order to answer what I’m saying?Ron (aka RealityCheck)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03274921909241630662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-30731156827763974372010-11-11T13:25:58.140-08:002010-11-11T13:25:58.140-08:00No, you're there.
If there's no point pra...No, you're there.<br /><br />If there's no point praying for X's salvation, because God has already elected or reprobated, then there is no sense praying for anything, because God has already determined what will happen in every situation, from the greatest to the least.<br /><br />Yet we know that there is sense, for the reason you state.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51615819783921361852010-11-11T13:20:06.860-08:002010-11-11T13:20:06.860-08:00RC,
God didn't just predetermine the salvatio...RC,<br /><br />God didn't just predetermine the salvation of people, but He also predestined the means to bring about that salvation. Our prayers might be a part of that...we can't know if he is elect or not. I think the point is that we can become hypercalvinist in a sense if we say that our prayers have no effect. We don't know how God answers all of our different prayers until He does. God knows, but we don't. <br /><br />Or I could be wayyyyyy off base. Just felt the need to throw my two cents in.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24786602799986783102010-11-11T11:00:43.664-08:002010-11-11T11:00:43.664-08:00You are right where my first response already answ...You are right where my first response already answered your question. You just keep repeating it. To answer you, I'd just keep repeating my answer. Which, since it's still up there, I won't.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67591001612741081392010-11-11T10:56:53.331-08:002010-11-11T10:56:53.331-08:00Dan,
“If you had understood my answer, then you w...Dan,<br /><br />“If you had understood my answer, then you would understand that you do not know what you keep saying that you do know.”<br /><br />Actually, I think I would.<br /><br />I think you’re saying that God is sovereign but somehow (beyond our understanding) we (our prayers) have some impact on someone’s salvation (even though we can’t know how). If that <em>is</em> what you’re saying… I have no choice but to disagree because I believe we can <em>know</em> that <em>that</em> can not be true. For if it is true, then we as fallen human beings would have a say in who gets saved and doesn’t.<br /><br />Now, if you’re saying something else… then please clarify what it is.<br /><br />BTW, I’ll be away from my computer for a few hours so if you want to take more than <em>3 minutes</em> to respond… I’d appreciate it. ;-)Ron (aka RealityCheck)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03274921909241630662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80610749660225257022010-11-11T09:03:31.296-08:002010-11-11T09:03:31.296-08:00If you had understood my answer, then you would un...If you had understood my answer, then you would understand that <b>you do not know what you keep saying that you do know</b>.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.com