tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post469737610803127244..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: "Honesty" Without Truth?Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63893597451676280372008-11-19T08:56:00.000-08:002008-11-19T08:56:00.000-08:00There's a lot of good stuff here.My observation is...There's a lot of good stuff here.<BR/><BR/>My observation is that if people are disemboweling themselves spiritually, there is some felt need that doing so will meet. There are two possibilities in this regard.<BR/><BR/>First, internal presuppositional conflict isn't being answered adequately and people are desperate to find the answer that will give them peace. Simply telling them to shut up and be a man won't address the root of the issue, part of which is the second possibility:<BR/><BR/>Second, common relationships in western culture have degraded to the point where we all but refuse to meet each other's emotional needs. Without godly fiendships, people despair. We are told that we need to develop godly friendships. However, we cannot control others and there are no guarantees that someone else will want to be a friend. This means that the only thing we can do is be a friend whether or not our friendship is reciprocated. The problem is that if you have no friends, you have no model for how to be a friend. It's a horrible position to be in and way too many people, including Christians, are in it.<BR/><BR/>This all contributes to many of our sociological problems such as divorce, gang activity, homosexuality and the drug culture.<BR/><BR/>What's the solution? If you have know how to be a friend, befriend someone who needs to learn and teach them by example. This is the greatest ministry for propagating godly wisdom.Jim Pembertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446388434272680014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-278996046535414372008-11-18T16:58:00.000-08:002008-11-18T16:58:00.000-08:00It's always a bit of a balancing act, isn't it? S...It's always a bit of a balancing act, isn't it? Surely people don't need to keep doubts, fears, struggles, etc. bottled up inside due to misplaced feelings of shame. If someone is going through a rough time spiritually, they need to be honest about it. But I think they need to be honest in a way that is <I>seeking a solution</I> to the struggle, not glorifying the struggle in itself, and I think where the problem with the Internet comes in.<BR/><BR/>I'll be frank, I post about my inner workings and struggles often. It's not exactly easy talking about homosexual struggles in person, especially in the more conservative South. But I have gradually learned to not post on them until <I>after</I> I've come to at least <I>somewhat</I> of a solution or course of action to take to them. <BR/><BR/>And I often call for people to give me ideas and solutions, since I know there is a network of men and women who have made further strides in this area than I have and who can give advice that I couldn't exactly get from the Christians around me (no offense to them, of course; it's just a unique struggle).<BR/><BR/>Making it public instead of private is something I am concerned about, because on one hand I don't want to be a stumbling block to anyone else, but on the other hand there is a benefit to putting a human face onto a struggle that most people don't deal with and many are completely ignorant of.Jayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15232291579882899350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-35500460700355897992008-11-18T14:50:00.000-08:002008-11-18T14:50:00.000-08:00This post made me think of Mathew 23 and "whitewas...This post made me think of Mathew 23 and "whitewashed sepulchres".David A. Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00465387359523299616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-14785210892963884652008-11-18T08:38:00.000-08:002008-11-18T08:38:00.000-08:00Eph. 4:15 takes care of a lot of the problem...".....Eph. 4:15 takes care of a lot of the problem...<BR/><BR/>"...speaking the truth...<BR/><BR/>in love."Terry Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00888533194435826837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16940139738604673332008-11-18T06:26:00.000-08:002008-11-18T06:26:00.000-08:00@ ~MarkThat seems to be one of the more consistent...@ ~Mark<BR/><BR/>That seems to be one of the more consistent revelations I get after periods of introspection. I try to use it as a starting place for understanding my own need to be humble before the Lord and others, not to mention the daily necessity of repentance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-19987716907753288712008-11-18T06:02:00.000-08:002008-11-18T06:02:00.000-08:00Rachel said: I'm getting ready to "share my testim...Rachel said: <I>I'm getting ready to "share my testimony" (you know, the lady equivalent of preaching/teaching :) )at our women's Bible study this week, and have been praying particularly that it would really be a time of telling Christ's story, rather than my own.</I><BR/><BR/>It is funny you brought that up. A friend and I were just mentioning that at her women's meetings, testimonies seem to be the oft used teaching material. We were lamenting the fact that many women's meetings don't dive into good theological teaching instead. My friend stated that she just doesn't like to go to her women's meetings because so often the women dissolve into tears over someone's heartfelt, tumultuous past. I used to go to the same church and lamented the same thing. I was pleased that at the last women's retreat we had Noel Piper as our speaker. <BR/><BR/><I>Some</I> women's meetings are like the Christian version of PostSecrets.candyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088593538648596769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51951057777564023892008-11-17T19:30:00.000-08:002008-11-17T19:30:00.000-08:00Speaking of "being authentic", I posted a note on ...Speaking of "being authentic", I posted a note on my Facebook page the other day 'cause I was thinking of that topic.<BR/><BR/>What if, while defending "just being real" you discover that the real you is a jerk?~Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01819856178499938127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13592487087748129042008-11-17T19:29:00.000-08:002008-11-17T19:29:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.~Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01819856178499938127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67514929699223348882008-11-17T19:21:00.000-08:002008-11-17T19:21:00.000-08:00I was fooled for a short time years ago by two sem...I was fooled for a short time years ago by two semi-Christian bloggers, whose open whining I took for struggling with their walk. It took all of a couple months for the posts to become of the quality of exposing an argument with your spouse but with them it seemed more to drag Christians down to their level. <BR/><BR/>After trying to show them where they could find the answers they "sought" in Scripture only to see them continue the turn from "questioning" to virtually championing everything unChristian from Brian MacLaren to Yoga, I delinked for good. <BR/><BR/>On the bright side that taught me to severely limit the number and type of blogs I visit on even a semi-regular basis, which was a good thing.~Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01819856178499938127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32618127850418922072008-11-17T19:04:00.000-08:002008-11-17T19:04:00.000-08:00I see--so the main difference is in the repentance...I see--so the main difference is in the repentance. That answers my question, y'all. I don't remember who said this (probably either Sproul Sr. or Robert Godfrey), but some sins are so shameful, they shouldn't even be mentioned (loose paraphrase). And Bootsandbibles really has a good point when he says that confession w/o repentance normalizes sinful behavior--it really does get worse when we keep talking about our sins as if they were some sort of trophies, rather than crying out to the Lord in our hearts for help. <BR/><BR/>(BTW, Phil, did you really take the time out and reproduce Munch's work with leftover ice cream?? Or is it just a play on words, i.e., we all "scream" for ice cream? Or maybe we're screaming because there is too much dirt confessed for our minds to consume!? In any case, it is interesting!)Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08289347868497438542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86332674281131295182008-11-17T18:38:00.000-08:002008-11-17T18:38:00.000-08:00Verbal vomit does not bring one praise or honor. ...Verbal vomit does not bring one praise or honor. At least none will come from one who fears God. <BR/>As God's word reads, "What the true proverb says has happened to them: 'The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.'" <BR/>2Pe 2:22 ESV<BR/><BR/>Great, great points Phil, thank you.Live As Ifhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14292061310319630822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-37651251254386347582008-11-17T16:22:00.000-08:002008-11-17T16:22:00.000-08:00There are more vile things than PostSecret on the ...There are more vile things than PostSecret on the internet. None of them, however, pretend to be virtuous -- and that's the nutshell problem with this sort of con fessional rubbish.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-60684644347292176202008-11-17T15:05:00.000-08:002008-11-17T15:05:00.000-08:00Great reminder!Great reminder!Caleb Kolstadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16430229005942296570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13879400927340786262008-11-17T15:03:00.000-08:002008-11-17T15:03:00.000-08:00It is amazing that in an age where there is so muc...It is amazing that in an age where there is so much "honesty" there is so little truth. Thanks for the post!Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03462064149305592733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40147110749827017132008-11-17T13:44:00.000-08:002008-11-17T13:44:00.000-08:00I think that honesty does have to do with the abil...I think that honesty does have to do with the ability to share truth about your sins and need for repentance. And it's better to be honest about what you believe than pretending to believe it. blahrodwithoutareelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16309370275654548714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28719058313822853412008-11-17T13:05:00.000-08:002008-11-17T13:05:00.000-08:00We also mustn't forget being "authentic." That is ...We also mustn't forget being "authentic." That is a much beloved word these days. Should I assume that all of this confessional handwringing is part of what it takes for authenticity?Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-83829447711408157382008-11-17T11:11:00.000-08:002008-11-17T11:11:00.000-08:00Ha ha! I just noticed the answer, I'm assuming rep...Ha ha! I just noticed the answer, I'm assuming repentance rather than just confession. Feel free to ignore me :-)Mikey Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02145976069297434642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72027555860498841792008-11-17T11:09:00.000-08:002008-11-17T11:09:00.000-08:00Obviously airing our own problems for the sake of...Obviously airing our own problems for the sake of 'honesty' is not good, but where is the line between this and trying to share our difficulties with others out of a genuine desire to overcome those issues or help others?Mikey Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02145976069297434642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40384535131053102762008-11-17T10:39:00.000-08:002008-11-17T10:39:00.000-08:00“To the postmodern mind, "honesty" has come to mea...“To the postmodern mind, "honesty" has come to mean the uninhibited venting of every egocentric feeling, every nagging doubt, every petty complaint, every subversive thought, and every negative passion. Maturity and discretion used to keep people from indiscriminately expressing certain potentially-destructive thoughts aloud—much less broadcasting them to the world. In fact, a natural—and valid—sense of shame kept most of our ancestors from publishing detailed memoirs of their own crimes and misdemeanors for all the world to see (cf. Ephesians 5:12).”<BR/><BR/>Phil, I can hear the objections now. What about James 5:16’s exhortation to confess your sins one to another? I say: Yeah, confess them, but do us the favor of adding just an ounce of true remorse and ownership of your sin. And is there a need to publish your sins in every graphic detail, almost romanticizing about how your sins are a kind of nobel expression of your own personal grapplings with the fallen human condition and your confessions are a transcendence out of that condition all on their own? This thing called sin is a not a beautiful tapestry woven together for you to explore, it’s a thing to abhor.<BR/><BR/>Bradbhustonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14935940944390362271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72980913779155096062008-11-17T10:18:00.000-08:002008-11-17T10:18:00.000-08:00This post also reminded me of Dan's series, and pa...This post also reminded me of Dan's series, and particularly this really helpful Spurgeon quote:<BR/><BR/>"I am the subject of depressions of spirit so fearful that I hope none of you ever get to such extremes of wretchedness as I go to, <B>but I always get back again by this-I know I trust Christ.</B> I have no reliance but in him, and if he falls I shall fall with him, but if he does not, I shall not. Because he lives, I shall live also, and I spring to my legs again and fight with my depressions of spirit and my down castings, and get the victory through it; <B>and so may you do, and so you must, for there is no other way of escaping from it.</B> In your most depressed seasons you are to get joy and peace through believing.<BR/><BR/>I'm getting ready to "share my testimony" (you know, the lady equivalent of preaching/teaching :) )at our women's Bible study this week, and have been praying particularly that it would really be a time of telling Christ's story, rather than my own. Thanks for the extremely helpful reminder, and warning, about how to make that so.Rachael Starkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10781158372237369417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61090051140407226212008-11-17T09:36:00.000-08:002008-11-17T09:36:00.000-08:00I wonder how much of a connection there is between...I wonder how much of a connection there is between Phil's post and Carl Trueman's post at Reformation 21 on the childishness of the culture.<BR/><BR/>Having spent quite a few years in the wasteland of youth ministry and teaching high school, I have seen a propensity to this type of "honesty."<BR/><BR/>But as Trueman and Phil both point out, the bigger problem is that this type of behavior has been adopted, and glorified, by the adults. <BR/><BR/>Postmodernism is quite literally a childish philosophy.CHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15390988470152416157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61466951963520086712008-11-17T09:25:00.000-08:002008-11-17T09:25:00.000-08:00BootsandBibles:Bingo. I ought to have included tha...<B>BootsandBibles:</B><BR/><BR/>Bingo. I ought to have included that verse in the post. In fact, I think I will.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13424731554923306812008-11-17T08:36:00.000-08:002008-11-17T08:36:00.000-08:00In any event, confession is not repentance...In any event, <I>confession</I> is not <B><I>repentance</I></B>...Even So...https://www.blogger.com/profile/14208866122431178938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74408754838738650932008-11-17T08:07:00.000-08:002008-11-17T08:07:00.000-08:00"A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise ..."A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back." - Proverbs 29:11, ESV<BR/><BR/>I have become more and more skeptical of these expressions of "confession" and "honesty" for many of the reasons you list here. While transparency, confession and honesty are all virtues and should be celebrated as such, they should not be sullied with vulgar and sensual manifestations whereby we justify our sinfulness and wallow in it.<BR/><BR/>Confession unaccompanied by repentance usually only acts to reinforce sinful behaviour. When all we do is confess, confess, confess, it normalises sinful behaviour, and often turns it into a means for acquiring attention and feeding the ego. <BR/><BR/>It's pretty basic group psychology... when it seems like everyone's doing <I>it</I> (insert sin here), no matter how wrong we may understand <I>it</I> to be, we'll feel in ourselves more freedom to transgress in the given manner if the group indulges <I>it</I> routinely, openly, and without retribution. Then again, I suppose that's the test of a believer's character, isn't it? Whether or not they'll abjure their sin, despite even a "Christian" society's acceptance of it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1551246482136605522008-11-17T08:03:00.000-08:002008-11-17T08:03:00.000-08:00making a pageant of their shame. . .Word. And not ...<I>making a pageant of their shame. . .</I><BR/><BR/>Word. <BR/><BR/>And not only is it troubling that people post this stuff. It's very troubling to me that more don't see the inherent voyeurism in reading it. <BR/><BR/>I am waiting for the day when "Christian pornography" gets introduced as cathartic and acceptable. While that might seem like a snide joke, I'm half serious. They might well try it.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.com