tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post470735016819171703..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: A Cornucopia of Good WillPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger78125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79376722542184120182013-11-20T13:17:12.683-08:002013-11-20T13:17:12.683-08:00Comments are closed.Comments are closed.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79952131650679414352013-11-19T13:36:26.035-08:002013-11-19T13:36:26.035-08:00Thank you very much. Much better than what I said...Thank you very much. Much better than what I said.<br /><br />For some reason that's just fine with me. I never seem to run out of things to marvel at when I read the bible. And when I meet my "family" on Sunday morning (or the rest of the week). And the miracle of a Godly wife. And grandchildren sitting with me in the pew on Sunday morning. And, and... <br /><br />What you have written here just makes perfectly good sense. I guess that I'm just not able to understand the whole tongues thing.Larry Geigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13158449612437822789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-68614409687134534002013-11-19T12:41:35.000-08:002013-11-19T12:41:35.000-08:00Larry:
In my view, it is utterly essential to say...Larry:<br /><br />In my view, it is utterly essential to say that the Holy Spirit is alive and works in the believer to call him to repentance, to give him new life (a changed life, a "second birth" as Christ says in John 3), to establish faith in the believer in an indestructible way, to illuminate the Scriptures, to work toward our holiness (which is called "sanctification"), and to give him fellowship with fellow believers.<br /><br />So Repentance, Regeneration, Faith, Perseverence, Illumination, Sanctification, and the foundation and tools for Fellowship.<br /><br />He;s a stingy old coot, I'll grant you, but those are His works in us and His gifts to us.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66576325238572705722013-11-19T09:17:43.224-08:002013-11-19T09:17:43.224-08:00So Frank, let me see if I understand what this mea...So Frank, let me see if I understand what this means, not what it doesn't mean.<br /><br />The "gifts of the Spirit" are basically twofold. One is salvation or justification. The Holy Spirit brings to us awareness of our sin, the need of a savior and the identity of that savior, Jesus Christ.<br /><br />Second is sanctification. The Holy Spirit brings us to want to know and understand God's word and apply that word to our daily lives.<br /><br />Would that be an accurate understanding of what you are saying?Larry Geigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13158449612437822789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46903298575311859932013-11-19T05:08:06.138-08:002013-11-19T05:08:06.138-08:00One more quick thought.
I wonder if you, Adrian, ...One more quick thought. <br />I wonder if you, Adrian, have had some experiences that mean an awful lot to you, and they were simply your flesh?<br /><br />I know a friend who will tell me, "I remember feeling the hand of God on my head! I could feel it press down on me, and it was incredible."<br />I simply think he imagined it. And it doesn't seem to help make him anymore Christ like to be honest, but sort of puffs him up, if you catch what Im saying.<br /><br />There are those who seem they need to out "experience" the other experience. <br />I am so happy my Lord set me free from all this, way back when I was in a Full Gospel Pentecostal church, and was able to way all these experiences against the Word of our Lord.<br /><br />I shall worship our Lord in Spirit and truth, for God is Spirit, and this is 100% grace, and I have a joy and peace, because of His great love, and becuase Jesus, the I Am, allowed Himself to be taken that night in the Garden.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32685092439855582902013-11-19T03:55:50.161-08:002013-11-19T03:55:50.161-08:00I have noticed that a lot of the discussion concer...I have noticed that a lot of the discussion concerning gifts has focussed on prophecy even though what charismatics talk about would look more like the gift termed "word of knowledge". When the movement started it was all about tongues as the evidence but that's impossible to defend today with technology so its shifted to "prophecy". So I think it is important to focus on the gift and prophets in particular. If we concede a continualist argument and take a parallel look at the OT ie Torah being the rule (canon) and prophets being those who would be sent to speak to God's people and bring them back to the ancient landmarks then the true prophets today would sound a lot more like John Macarthur than Rick Joyner. Just an observation - true prophets were generally not triumphalist and popular. They came with "THE WORD" and not "A WORD". False prophets did the opposite and there were plenty around even then - half the book of Jeremiah is on this very theme. There are many verses that could be used to explain what is happening on a mass golbal scale today where there are prophets giving words everywhere. And if the doctrine is out you can be sure the prophecies are also. Not to mention the moral issues that follow. These things were written for our admonition but it seemss we have a short memory.jukshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06912286504972736756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67311808529088274842013-11-18T17:50:30.761-08:002013-11-18T17:50:30.761-08:00I can just imagine the Apostle Paul telling the ch...I can just imagine the Apostle Paul telling the church at Corinth that he didn't have time to deal with their errors. He was too busy doing things like ministry. <br /><br />Seriously now, and speaking of Paul and Corinth. 2 Corinthians 2:17 and its reference to "peddling the Word of God" comes to mind. I think I'm on strong ground to say that nails a fairly healthy chunk of these folks. And what's worse, what we get is 3/4 peddling and 1/4 Word of God, if even that. Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34774347530024916572013-11-18T17:44:16.835-08:002013-11-18T17:44:16.835-08:00Some very good comments.
The Bible is an incredib...Some very good comments.<br /><br />The Bible is an incredible masterpiece put together by God.<br /><br />I have to think some Christians think God was thankful to us down here for putting all the writings together.<br />Thank for the printing press we invented, etc.<br /><br />And yet if we sit back and see John begin to write his Epsitle, and how we have this holy truth in our hands, and right before us to read, and study, and love, and be taught by our Lord's pastor-teachers.<br /><br />I would hope Adrian would mediatate on how our sovereign Lord gather His Word toegether for us, and how this Book, though not miraculous, is beyond comprehension.<br /><br />It was God, thru His Spirit who has given us His truth, and He has also given us His Spirit.<br /><br />I know my words are awkward and not well said, yet, the Holy Scriptures are truly our Lord's most magnificent gift of grace to us, His people, and of course His Spirit in us as well.<br />"Spirit and truth. ... My Word is truth"-Jesusdonsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34401410582908022942013-11-18T17:20:48.149-08:002013-11-18T17:20:48.149-08:00This reminds me of the original panel of judges fo...This reminds me of the original panel of judges for "American Idol."<br /><br />Adrian Warnock is the American Paula Abdul. And Frank Turk is the British Simon Cowell.<br /><br />Paula was nice, sweet, and affirming. Simon was mean and hard.<br /><br />By the way, as a word of warning to all interlocutors of Turk, never accept an opening concession. He wrote this:<br /><br />(1) "I am willing to concede, for the sake of this discussion, D. A. Carson's interpretation of 1 Cor 12-14, so that we are not squabbling over the hermeneutics of the issue. .... I concede on that point--now let's talk turkey." And...<br /><br />(2) "Because I handed over any Bible-proofing here as a concession, I'll hand you one more: I will own that the tone in this post is the harshest I have ever been to anyone, at any time, in all contexts."<br /><br />Why, you future thread combatants of Turk may ask, "Why don't I want to accept these concessions from Frank Turk?"<br /><br />Because it's like this. Two fighters in the ring. Turk is the short bald guy. He gives you a concession by lowering his bald noggin and barreling in, saying in effect, "Here's my concession: Land the hardest punch you can on my lowered bald head."<br /><br />So you do. Blam! You land a smashing overhand right. Right on top of his bald noggin.<br /><br />Then guess what happens next. He has gotten close enough to you, and then he delivers a jaw-crunching uppercut to the bottom of your chin. Ka-boom! You're knocked out.<br /><br />You're laying on the canvas with stars in your eyes, and a broken right hand. You wonder what happened. After all, you landed the first punch. <br /><br />Adrian Warnock, you got all Turked up, dude. It was brutal. <br /><br />Paula Abdul, do not accept Simon Cowell's concessions. Just edge away.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-15704146448947054212013-11-18T14:16:06.269-08:002013-11-18T14:16:06.269-08:00Frank's last comment alone is worth the price ...Frank's last comment alone is worth the price of admission. MORE, even!DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40788261972223671212013-11-18T14:11:56.328-08:002013-11-18T14:11:56.328-08:00SolaMeanie:
Just for the record, you have really ...SolaMeanie:<br /><br />Just for the record, you have really nailed it in a way that no one else has yet.<br /><br />In order to help the Continualist see what it is they are doing here, I have conceded Scripture to them -- that the Bible says that the Gifts continue. They think this is the massive victory for them, but sadly what they are then stuck with is what they have asked for: the experience.<br /><br />The experience in Acts is that blind people regain their sight and men lame from birth are made well enough that they are fully healthy, not just pain-free, and the dead are actually raised <i>with a word</i>. The experience in Acts is that Aramaic is spoken but all the languages of the Near East are heard, each man in his own language. The experience in Acts is that Scripture is made, and no one has to equivocate over what it means to have a prophecy. And when Paul has a vision of God, he is struck blind, and is given specific instructions which he understands so well that he can, in fact, write most of the NT.<br /><br />So when I conceded the question, "Does Scripture say that the Gifts will endure," I expect the Charismatic to have nothing left to do but produce them. That is: show me them.<br /><br />When we get instead is Adrian Warnock telling us that it's all the same whether one is merely-repentant or one is gifted with on-command healing. And what we get, if I may be bold for a second, if John Piper reducing Prophecy to intuitions which he has no obligation to share or follow.<br /><br />Look: let's forever concede D.A.Carson's reading of 1 Cor 12-14 -- and indeed the point of all the prooftexts of the Charismatic -- to say that the Gifts must continue. But then let's also hold their feet to the fire for these gifts. And let's treat the charletans who are trying to dupe people with counterfeits like people who are taking something which Scripture demands and twisting it into something which Scripture abhors.<br /><br />In my view of it, the cautious Charismatic has a much worse place in the world when he gives cover to the crazy enthusiasts by "not having time" to refute their lies. In this place, where Scripture says the gifts exist, what should we do with someone defrauding people with parlor tricks? What does it say about the faith if we do nothing?FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79914813924930101232013-11-18T14:02:03.277-08:002013-11-18T14:02:03.277-08:00So according to Dr. Warnock, we can simply change ...So according to Dr. Warnock, we can simply change what the gifts actually were into something that is happening today and then claim that people really are in fact Charismatic and don’t even know it!<br />So: <br />Ad libs = prophecy<br />Mad libs = tongues<br />Misdiagnosis = healing<br />NOW I GET IT!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05176719528294963280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88728618319481545182013-11-18T13:11:32.812-08:002013-11-18T13:11:32.812-08:00This point has been made several times, but I'...This point has been made several times, but I'd like to make it again because it really is the elephant in the room. When all is said and done, this is really all about Scripture vs. experience. Within the charismatic world, experience dominates. I can even remember some in the past on TBN long ago talking about "Bibleolatry" or people worshipping their Bibles instead of God (the Holy Spirit), which is an odd accusation since the Holy Spirit himself inspired said Bible, which regulates sign gifts and describes the gifts of the Spirit. In personal conversations I've had (even in the past when I attended a Pentecostal church) when I would raise a biblical question, the experience would almost always be offered up rather than dealing with what Scripture said. <br /><br />This troubles me greatly. I will pick the Bible first, and have the Bible judge my experience, not let my experience judge the Bible. The Bible validates or invalidates my experience. I can remember years ago listening to the late Derek Prince's tapes on demonology. Even in my late teens, when I heard him say "Now, you won't see this in Scripture, but I've learned it to be true by experience," a red flag went up. If I don't see it in Scripture, you'd better believe I am going to put up a red flag and scrutinize it. <br /><br />I can remember (also in my teens) when a Mormon missionary came to the house. I was just coming out of being raised in the church of Christ (Restoration Movement) and had begun attending a Baptist church. My father and I let them in and began having a discussion (mostly me and the Mormon couple. My father just listened). They would make their statement, and I would reply "But this is what the Bible says..." Repeatedly. After about seven or eight times of this happening, the Mormon husband slammed his fist on the coffee table and said loudly, "I don't CARE what the Bible says!" His wife grimaced, and then finally Dad spoke up. He said, "My boy and I happen to care very much what the Bible says. I think it's time you both went on your way." <br /><br />Sometimes our experiences can leave indelible marks on you, and that one did. So much to the point that anytime I see anyone evade the Bible (even those who are supposed to be fellow Christians), I get very, very disturbed. Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46724167323574726602013-11-18T09:42:26.917-08:002013-11-18T09:42:26.917-08:00Two things this morning:
1. Thanks to Frank for i...Two things this morning:<br /><br />1. Thanks to Frank for inviting me to be a contributor to this well-known, well-respected, and well-hated blog.<br /><br />2. I'd like to take Frank up on his challenge to ask him 5 questions in exchange for answering his 5 questions.<br /><br />I hope he doesn't chicken out.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09992985395211895507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24697431161863916342013-11-18T08:52:12.963-08:002013-11-18T08:52:12.963-08:00PA #26.<a href="http://bit.ly/MTJJox" rel="nofollow">PA #26</a>.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-5919174351890708282013-11-18T08:09:45.942-08:002013-11-18T08:09:45.942-08:00I did have a comment turn up with "secretwarn...I did have a comment turn up with "secretwarnock"" as the name for some odd reason. It has since been deleted. If you can reinstate that it would be awesome it was indeed me not someone impersonating me!Adrian Warnockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12153686724298326405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-60570200153746046752013-11-18T06:50:34.502-08:002013-11-18T06:50:34.502-08:00FYI to all readers:
I'll be shutting down the...FYI to all readers:<br /><br />I'll be shutting down the comments for this post sometime before Wednesday. Please get your licks in while you can.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27142318216948850442013-11-18T06:49:10.272-08:002013-11-18T06:49:10.272-08:00Saith PseudoWarnock:
| Well, it will come as no s...Saith PseudoWarnock:<br /><br />| Well, it will come as no surprise to anyone in <br />[snip]<br />| willful misrepresentation and the hostility. <br /><br />We are disappointed by the questions asked and the answers provided.<br /><br />| I do also feel that it is clear we are talking past <br />[snip]<br />| perspective, as seen in a couple of comments <br />| here. <br /><br />I think you’re not reading the same blog entry the rest of us are – and if you are, then I wonder why you would answer in a way that “talks past” me when, prior to the actual discussion, I gave you the chance to come up with better questions and also I gave you the chance to ask clarifying questions?<br /><br />| I have posted a video of myself talking about <br />[snip]<br />| perhaps even a brother in Christ. <br /><br />It’s a shame that, even after what was said here specifically to that issue (whether or not you’re a Christian), you still use passive-aggressive language to say I don’t. <br /><br />Which is worse I wonder: putting concerns in an open and honest way to a person, or surreptitiously claiming they are some kind of bigot?<br /><br />| Just a few things that seem to be being <br />[snip]<br />| to disobey on what biblical grounds? NONE. <br /><br />I see: so it is true that you think Spurgeon and in fact all cessationists are so sort of spiritual imbeciles when presented with miracles.<br /><br />| BUT, I have NEVER EVER said that this is a <br />[snip]<br />| because I was told to believe it by someone <br />| else. And all the negative experiences so often <br />| cited will not shape my theology! <br /><br />In a breathtakingly-surprising paragraph, it’s the last sentence there which really stuns. That actually sums up continualism in a single package.<br /><br />| In fact some Christians do seek a relational <br />[snip]<br />| I feel is the "correct" theology but no <br />| experience. <br /><br />It’s all a giant shepherd’s pie, isn’t it PseudoWarnock? Someone points out that there are no potatoes, you start talking about the veg; someone points out there are no veggies, and you proudly tout the meat; someone shows you there is no meat at all, and suddenly you say they have secretly eaten it all already, so as long as that’s done we can move on.<br /><br />| I was NOT trying to mock Frank or be <br />[snip]<br />| specific Bible verses in this exchange far more <br />| than Frank does. <br /><br />I have already granted, above, that Adrian did reference the Bible directly more often than I did.<br /><br />| I have no problem with admitting that <br />| theological charismaticisim is a relatively new <br />| thing. <br /><br />Well, except for the fact that you claim that Spurgeon was some kind of sock puppet of the Holy Spirit – and in that, a rather sorry one who could not tell that God had his hand in it.<br /><br />| When someone predicts something or reveals <br />| something they could not have known <br />| naturally as Spurgeon did, whatever other <br />| word should we use than prophetic to describe <br />| the phenomena???<br /><br />How about “providential,” which is the word Spurgeon uses? Are you really that biased against the man that you can’t use his word for his experience?FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73480515922932124312013-11-17T23:15:55.040-08:002013-11-17T23:15:55.040-08:00Adrian really has no idea what the conference was ...Adrian really has no idea what the conference was about, since he will not examine what he calls the "fringes" of his movement. <br /><br />Not sure why he has taken that stance. I really can't figure the guy out. <br /><br />OTOH, MacArthur is clear as a bell. Why is that?<br />Mrs. Webfoothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09688935118585583682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84063844213579544472013-11-17T15:29:01.222-08:002013-11-17T15:29:01.222-08:00Strange. Adrian still wants Spurgeon on his side i...Strange. Adrian still wants Spurgeon on his side in spite of what Spurgeon said in the quotes above. <br /><br />This kind of sounds like the hyper King James group. "Well, the translators WERE inspired and mistake-free, they just didn't know it." Even though the preface to the reader said otherwise.<br /><br />"Well, Spurgeon was a prophecy, healing and signs guy, he denied it, but he obviously was one." <br /><br />And Adrian says CHS was even though Spurgeon said not to follow his experience. Read the quotes again Adrian, you are talking like you didn't.Kerry James Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06083436735702873300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34926800944112307302013-11-17T06:05:58.738-08:002013-11-17T06:05:58.738-08:00It's really hard to take you seriously on some...It's really hard to take you seriously on some of these issues, Warnock, when you say that you are going to correct some things that are "being deliberately misunderstood", yet you go on to give examples of what you very clearly said either implicitly or explicitly.<br /><br />For example, no you never said the cessation of gifts is a gospel issue, but you did say you would defend charismatic doctrine like the reformers defended the gospel. A paragraph or so earlier in the dialog with Frank, you were trying to get him to concede that this whole discussion was a secondary issue. <br /><br />So while you never said the cessationist/continuationist debate is a gospel issue, by implication you made it a primary issue on the same level as the gospel just by what you said.<br /><br />However, now you are accusing anyone who made that clear connection as "deliberately misunderstanding" your position? How do you expect us to take you honestly when you can't even admit a possible flaw in something you said or your theology? <br /><br />Granted, some of us could be a bit more clear or a bit more Christ-like in our responses as Christians ought, but we also have to be honest in our discussion here. Thanks, though, for clarifying a bit.<br /><br />Blessings in Christ!Jared T. Baergenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07934502836422481775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-65677044245582789282013-11-17T05:28:58.645-08:002013-11-17T05:28:58.645-08:00Getting tired of all the talk. If its about sign g...Getting tired of all the talk. If its about sign gifts it should be easy to resolve this issue. Come on Adrian and Michael Brown. Give us something more than Pensacola. Do the stuff! After all if Dr Mac is being "pharisaical" then the best way to rebuke him is to go and heal the paralytics - after all its easier to talk isn't it? Until we see a real baby in the dirty water we will continue to use our bible to test. So far .............................jukshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06912286504972736756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-57040123251936568812013-11-16T16:06:05.592-08:002013-11-16T16:06:05.592-08:00Well, it will come as no surprise to anyone in thi...Well, it will come as no surprise to anyone in this trail that I am very disappointed by the willful misrepresentation and the hostility. <br /><br />I do also feel that it is clear we are talking past each other, and that as much as the pyromaniacal tribe is jeering me, those from the charismatic side would have a different perspective, as seen in a couple of comments here.<br /><br />I have <a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/adrianwarnock/2013/11/team-pyro-discussion-and-personal-reflections-on-two-very-different-conferences" rel="nofollow">posted a video</a> of myself talking about my reactions to all this, as just maybe it will help y'all to think of me as a human being, perhaps even a brother in Christ. <br /><br />Just a few things that seem to be being deliberately misunderstood. For a start I made it clear that I believe that NO TRUE CHURCH is entirely without the gifts, they are just not recognized as such and not pursued. Thus no church is infinitely poorer than a church with gifts. 1 Corinthians 1:7 is a promise, we are just told to also EAGERLY DESIRE them, a direct command from God that cessationists tell us to disobey on what biblical grounds? NONE. <br /><br />BUT, I have NEVER EVER said that this is a gospel issue and I STILL don't. My comments about the reformation were solely to make the point that I believe what I do because my reading of the Bible leaves me no choice, not because I was told to believe it by someone else. And all the negative experiences so often cited will not shape my theology!<br /><br />In fact some Christians do seek a relational experiential encounter with God without ever being theologically cessationist, and I don't have a major problem with that. I would sooner someone had the experience and a different theology about it than they had what I feel is the "correct" theology but no experience. <br /><br />I was NOT trying to mock Frank or be offensive, and the reason I chose the questions I did was precisely because he said he had for the purposes of the conversation already conceded that gifts continue! So to mock me for not referencing the Bible in my questions is a bit ridiculous, especially when it is so obvious that I was constantly referring to the Bible in my answers to his questions. In fact I cite specific Bible verses in this exchange far more than Frank does.<br /><br />I have no problem with admitting that theological charismaticisim is a relatively new thing.<br /><br />When someone predicts something or reveals something they could not have known naturally as Spurgeon did, whatever other word should we use than prophetic to describe the phenomena???secretwarnockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12505257335557018507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-18908974893589747912013-11-16T10:07:38.099-08:002013-11-16T10:07:38.099-08:00I find this statement to be pretty darn troubling:...I find this statement to be pretty darn troubling:<br /><br />"What is not appreciated by some is that many charismatics do reject false teachers they just prefer to highlight the positive to their people."<br /><br />That doesn't square very well with Paul's counsel to Titus regarding false teachers in Crete. <br /><br />"They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach." Titus 1:11<br /><br />False teachers leave a bloody trail of spiritual carnage and chaos behind them -- but let's "highlight the positive". NOT!Christinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08831822017833351066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-30214881403725842382013-11-16T06:03:53.094-08:002013-11-16T06:03:53.094-08:00The question has come up as to whether or not 1Cor...The question has come up as to whether or not 1Cor 1:7 is a prooftext for continualism. Let me give you the tourist's version.<br /><br />1 Cor 1:4-9 reads thus:<br /><br />-----<br />4 I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus, 5 that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge— 6 <b>even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you</b>— 7 <i>so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ</i>, 8 who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.<br />-----<br /><br />The cats who point there want you to use vv. 7-8 to say that Paul is here telling the Corinthians that the Christian Church is sustain by the (apostolic) Gifts until Christ returns. If I were them, I'd back up a verse and say that vv. 6-7 say this because only if v. 6 means that the Gospel was confirmed by Apostolic Gifts to the Corinthians can v. 7 means that the same gifts are the ones which sustain them until Christ returns. If I were a continualist, I'd insist on it.<br /><br />Nevermind that nobody prior to the 20th century read these verses this way: Fiat Lux.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.com