tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post4995768824601880111..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Defaming the Wrong Flying Spaghetti MonsterPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20739429315894232742013-02-06T12:42:38.981-08:002013-02-06T12:42:38.981-08:00Paul:
Hence, next week's post.Paul:<br /><br />Hence, next week's post.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-19005384095514422282013-02-06T12:27:44.301-08:002013-02-06T12:27:44.301-08:00I'm skeptical that we can use science to chang...I'm skeptical that we can use science to change the minds of pro-abortion people. Ask a pro-abort, "If I can show you that the fetus is really a person, will you support making abortion illegal?". Don't expect a "yes". In fact they will often respond, "Well no because a woman shouldn't have to stay pregnant against her will". Also, in the process of conception video that was posted, how can science say that something is non-valuable one moment and valuable a split-second later? Engage a true Christian on abortion, and it's quite a different story. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2564813023223555902013-02-06T11:54:21.179-08:002013-02-06T11:54:21.179-08:00I'll be back in about 2 hours, and then I'...I'll be back in about 2 hours, and then I'll be out of internet.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73131666742849420862013-02-06T11:52:56.673-08:002013-02-06T11:52:56.673-08:00Rho:
That you are willing to say you don't wa...Rho:<br /><br />That you are willing to say you don't want something which is you goal points to the problem.<br /><br />Seriously: step away. Let it be a request rather than a requirement.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-92134899746753896762013-02-06T11:48:59.155-08:002013-02-06T11:48:59.155-08:00I do wonder what the presuppositionalist would say...<i>I do wonder what the presuppositionalist would say to the Christian who is pro-choice?</i><br /><br />We would proclaim the law to them, take them to the Word of God and call them to repent of their sin.<br />It's not very complicated, really. I doubt your approach is a whole lot different.<br /><br /><br /><i>I'm wondering where all of this concern was last week when we were concerned with trying to bring shame to people because abortion is murder</i><br /><br /><a href="http://blog.abolishhumanabortion.com/2013/02/are-abortive-women-murderers.html" rel="nofollow">B/c of the Gospel, an abortive woman can say she is a murderer without shame.</a><br /><br /><br />Grace and peace,<br />Rhology<br /><br />Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67621220003205387792013-02-06T11:47:05.616-08:002013-02-06T11:47:05.616-08:00I don't think we should expect the government ...<i>I don't think we should expect the government should be a christian theocracy before it bans the convenient murder of babies.</i><br /><br />Sure, neither do we, but that's in some extent our goal.<br /><br /><br /><i>The example we should follow, since it was brought up, is the example of abolition</i><br /><br />We follow those guys' example. You are not, really. Not in the way you're framing the conversation here.<br /><br />Grace and peace,<br />Rhology<br /><br />Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-35621209254559819232013-02-06T11:38:39.493-08:002013-02-06T11:38:39.493-08:00I do wonder what the presuppositionalist would say...I do wonder what the presuppositionalist would say to the Christian who is pro-choice? Or how about the nominal Christian who is pro-abortion? Are we so naive as to think these people don't exist? My wife sees them often at the pregnancy center. And she first works on showing that abortion is murder.<br /><br />By the way, I'm wondering where all of this concern was last week when we were concerned with trying to bring shame to people because abortion is murder...did I miss something?Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-70021790177757320112013-02-06T11:33:21.343-08:002013-02-06T11:33:21.343-08:00The example we should follow, since it was brought...The example we should follow, since it was brought up, is the example of abolition. Everyone doesn't have to be a post-millennial Calvinist to outlaw human trafficking.<br /><br />Now go and do the same.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48281022758521431272013-02-06T11:30:34.082-08:002013-02-06T11:30:34.082-08:00Rho:
I don't think we should expect the gover...Rho:<br /><br />I don't think we should expect the government should be a christian theocracy before it bans the convenient murder of babies.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12007374533668280372013-02-06T11:27:21.382-08:002013-02-06T11:27:21.382-08:00The staggering thing in this dialogue is that ther...The staggering thing in this dialogue is that there are some people in it who do not understand that the matter of which laws a government enforces /is/ actually a matter of "moralism", not a matter of grace or redemption. It is a matter of the ministry of the sword, not a matter of the ministry of the word in the sense our presuppositional friends have, um, presupposed.<br /><br />Those people are excused from the rest of the comment thread. I insist.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33346575266130874492013-02-06T11:05:28.125-08:002013-02-06T11:05:28.125-08:00I don't think anyone said anything about accep...I don't think anyone said anything about <b>accepting</b> and <b>being grateful for</b> lesser outcomes than the ideal, but did you really mean to say we should be <b>**SETTLING**</b>?<br /><br />Grace and peace,<br />RhologyRhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72748153262804870302013-02-06T11:03:54.764-08:002013-02-06T11:03:54.764-08:00See: the question is, 'What are we trying to a...See: the question is, 'What are we trying to accomplish here?"<br /><br />If we are trying to accomplish the best outcome -- the salvation of all men -- and will settle for no other outcomes because we believe that getting "the best" will cause all the others to fall in line, we have forgotten (again) the most rudimentary act of God's sovereignty and grace: /ordinary means/.<br /><br />This is the presuppositional version of charismatic fireworks: unless someone is inside our version of systematic theology /prior to their conversion/, all of their actions are utterly meaningless. But somehow Rom 2 says that the unsaved have a different problem: they actually do have ethically-good actions which they can rightly commend themselves with -- which makes all the other times they miss the mark /worse/ for them.<br /><br />Their ethics do not earn them favor with God -- but they can in fact benefit their fellow human beings. And what we're actually trying to do here is /save lives/ of people who are being murdered. <br /><br />If we also wind up converting the lost because we found common cause over the death of infants, I think that's great.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3116622957504473732013-02-06T11:01:04.842-08:002013-02-06T11:01:04.842-08:00Because if they do, then whatever else you are doi...<i>Because if they do, then whatever else you are doing is either ineffective and below the threshold of engagement, or way over their heads and therefore ineffective.</i><br /><br />Preaching the law and Gospel and reducing competing worldviews to absurdity is ineffective or way over their heads?<br /><br />No, Frank, that's just not the case. Plus, I'm not the best communicator in the world and I can easily lead people through the line of reasoning. <br />As a bonus, it's better than trying to lead people through a jungle of facts and figures and to jump over the naturalistic fallacy while you're at it. <br />As a double bonus, we get to preach the law of God the whole time. Imagine the potential. <br /><br />I don't love your methodology, but you won't see me writing blog posts ripping you about it. I wish you'd returned the favor, and your critique isn't doing so hot.<br /><br />Grace and peace,<br />RhologyRhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-19969610684723505832013-02-06T10:56:48.751-08:002013-02-06T10:56:48.751-08:00"I don't see abolitionism as political ac..."I don't see abolitionism as political activism."<br /><br />As I said: the presuppositionalist is mostly not in this conversation anyway.<br /><br />Here's the acid test for the matter: does the pro-abortion advocate see it as political activism? Because if they do, then whatever else you are doing is either ineffective and below the threshold of engagement, or way over their heads and therefore ineffective.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41266301077825526232013-02-06T10:34:50.029-08:002013-02-06T10:34:50.029-08:00"When the science and scripture are on the sa..."When the science and scripture are on the same side, they just change the science!"<br /><br />There is a very specific reason for that...a reason which can addressed presuppositionally.<br /><br />But then, that apologetic was pretty much shown to the door in this post.<br /><br />- ShaneShane Dodsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17034383784905920045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69421986827592059322013-02-06T09:43:57.583-08:002013-02-06T09:43:57.583-08:00Ugh, me make mistake me need more coffee! I meant ... Ugh, me make mistake me need more coffee! I meant to type "I'd email" not "I email".Mizz Harpyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18220764076008867988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-64139620713014016782013-02-06T09:43:21.591-08:002013-02-06T09:43:21.591-08:00Then, AS WE GO, we should preach the Gospel.
Let ...<i>Then, AS WE GO, we should preach the Gospel.</i><br /><br />Let me share a bit of what I've learned so far about that. <br />We go, we preach the Gospel, and the Romanists that dominate the Pro-Life Movement turn on us and attack us with disturbing frequency. Since we preach the Gospel, we're "anti-Catholic". <br /><br />We have to take that into account. Better to do what Jesus said in all cases and at all times, and let God take care of the consequences and the numbers and movement size.<br /><br />Grace and peace,<br />RhologyRhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-11397586628825371862013-02-06T09:42:05.883-08:002013-02-06T09:42:05.883-08:00I email this to ya'll but I'll post the li...I email this to ya'll but I'll post the link here so readers can view this short video on conception. This wasn't made by a pro-life group. <br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFrVmDgh4v4&feature=player_embedded<br /><br />Notice the narrator says a human life is conceived, not a fetus, not an undifferentiated blob. Mizz Harpyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18220764076008867988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-57610543302794967512013-02-06T09:33:12.796-08:002013-02-06T09:33:12.796-08:00Marcus,
I love how here you have somehow rolled c...Marcus,<br /><br />I love how here you have somehow rolled caring about and arguing against abortion and a hostility to sharing the Gospel together. <br /><br />Frank is right. Sometimes, as Christians, we have to partner with people to form a wider coalition against a great evil. Does that mean we can't share the Gospel as we go along? OF COURSE NOT. <br /><br />Sometimes we have to make philosophical arguments in the world because the world is the world. Not everyone is going to come over to the Christian point of view. A cursory read of scripture might help you to understand that.<br /><br />If we can stop a great evil, we should. Then, AS WE GO, we should preach the Gospel.Cb22https://www.blogger.com/profile/10372550100420887846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26935553000314364602013-02-06T09:29:28.698-08:002013-02-06T09:29:28.698-08:00When the science and scripture are on the same sid...When the science and scripture are on the same side, they just change the science! <br /><br />Awaiting the follow-up with bated breath. Thank you for the excellent post.Cb22https://www.blogger.com/profile/10372550100420887846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85075812375084546392013-02-06T09:27:54.833-08:002013-02-06T09:27:54.833-08:00"We can't expect people to first become C..."We can't expect people to first become Christians before they will stop killing babies"<br /><br />OK, so then we must embrace moralism. Got it. Marcus Pittmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01218146136189467252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2618873284275698222013-02-06T09:17:43.103-08:002013-02-06T09:17:43.103-08:00Frank,
But neither of us are post-millennials who...Frank,<br /><br /><i>But neither of us are post-millennials who think we will get a perfect world prior to the returns of Christ.</i><br /><br />Well, I'm undecided on that. :-) My abolitionist friends are methodological post-mills, and that sounds fine to me as far as it goes. <br /><br /><br /><i>In that: evangelism -cannot- be harnessed to political activism.</i><br /><br />I don't see abolition as political activism. It is a moral issue, as you know. It is a choice a woman makes. It is an act of murder. And God has said "Don't murder" in His law. We express God's law and insist that women not murder their tiny babies. If they show repentance and brokenness <a href="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/26153629/Abortuary18Jan13_Jackie%26Cherish.mp3" rel="nofollow">as a lady and her daughter did just two weeks ago at the local abortuary</a> then we preach the Gospel to them. It works great.<br /><br /><br /><i>we can't expect people to first become Christians before they will stop killing babies, for example.</i><br /><br />Either the Gospel is the solution, or it isn't. <br />But if you're wondering whether I'm in favor of illegalising abortion and making sure churches spend more on assisting women in crisis pregnancies, etc, than they do on lawn care and lighting, I'm right there with you.<br /><br /><br /><i>the presuppositional point of retreat to Rom 1-2 utter supports /my view/ that the unsaved person has enough information to make a reasonable and informed choice to do what's right regarding, for example, the murder of babies.</i><br /><br />True, except they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, and the law of God is that which breaks that suppression.<br /><br /><br /><i>It is obtainably-good to eliminate 95% of all abortions.</i><br /><br />That may be, and that's fine, but let's not stop there. (I'm not proposing you think we should stop there, mind you.)<br />We as abolitionists are indeed pursuing the total renewal of the culture to Jesus, as we are commanded to in the New Testament.<br /><br /><br /><i>we can do that without deanding that first: people adopt all our preconditions of moral reasoning.</i><br /><br />So... we can do that without people thinking that murdering babies is wrong? How would you propose that happen? <br />Does "murder is wrong" even make sense on a secular worldview? You and I both know it does not. And that is exactly what I'm saying.<br /><br />Grace and peace,<br />RhologyRhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-17607086211940035422013-02-06T09:09:49.302-08:002013-02-06T09:09:49.302-08:00And OSH apparently hates babies, too. Of course, ...And OSH apparently hates babies, too. Of course, if you wrote about chocolate or bacon, OSH would probably hate them, too.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20537559028189410162013-02-06T09:04:48.429-08:002013-02-06T09:04:48.429-08:00Also, from 10,000 feet:
ILOVEYOUONESTARHATER!!!!!...Also, from 10,000 feet:<br /><br /><b><i>ILOVEYOUONESTARHATER!!!!!11!!!!</i></b>FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12056720679324740862013-02-06T09:03:07.868-08:002013-02-06T09:03:07.868-08:00Rho -
I absolutely agree that the Gospel is the s...Rho -<br /><br />I absolutely agree that the Gospel is the solution to abortion. But neither of us are post-millennials who think we will get a perfect world prior to the returns of Christ. In that: evangelism -cannot- be harnessed to political activism. That is: we can't expect people to first become Christians before they will stop killing babies, for example.<br /><br />For what it's worth, the presuppositional point of retreat to Rom 1-2 utter supports /my view/ that the unsaved person has enough information to make a reasonable and informed choice to do what's right regarding, for example, the murder of babies. You guys want to stop at the end of Rom 1 and forget that Rom 2 goes after the unbelievers who are not handed over to irredeemable idolatry -- they have a conscience that still works in spite of the wrong that they do, and it is utterly informed by God's moral decrees.<br /><br />In that: the point is utterly not to get the baby murderer to first become a christian so that of course he won't kill babies anymore. In this case, this is a secular debate in which we cannot become the victim of trading what's unobtainably-best for what is obtainably-good. <br /><br />It is obtainably-good to eliminate 95% of all abortions. And we can do that without deanding that first: people adopt all our preconditions of moral reasoning.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.com