tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post505395836601516567..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: "Innovation" and IrrelevancePhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger75125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78546094135827499912012-02-11T09:48:52.389-08:002012-02-11T09:48:52.389-08:00Hello, and thank you for your thoughtful blog post...Hello, and thank you for your thoughtful blog post. I would love to share this on my FB page but alas, I have deactivated. I will however share it on my blog http://wonderfulwanderings-jude.blogspot.com/ BTW I linked here from the Gentle Reformation blog http://genref.wordpress.com/2012/02/11/vines-and-oaks/#more-3519 Feel free to delete the links if you would rather not have them here. Again thanks - I love my simple reformed church where we just sing the psalms. I came out of a REALLY LOUD church with obnoxious kids and praise songs with tight jeaned young women and men "leading worship" with praise choruses that went on and on and on.Judehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08464816880655646183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41502117446945817192012-02-07T12:54:40.330-08:002012-02-07T12:54:40.330-08:00I don't know but that hating the haters is one...I don't know but that <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCW9-MglCsw" rel="nofollow">hating the haters</a> is one stream of the new "relevance".Jim Pembertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446388434272680014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73291631828398310852012-02-07T11:58:30.938-08:002012-02-07T11:58:30.938-08:00I just started reading this book by James Montgome...I just started reading this book by James Montgomery Boice called "Whatever happened to the gospel of grace?" and the preface sounds like it addresses similar points as this post. <br /><br />Great post PhilLindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09418337100329537312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61294145926342706842012-02-07T09:39:54.250-08:002012-02-07T09:39:54.250-08:00Aaron,
Thanks...I don't want to be lumping in...Aaron,<br /><br />Thanks...I don't want to be lumping in the good with the bad.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54930603017649327232012-02-07T09:26:45.796-08:002012-02-07T09:26:45.796-08:00@Robert: I know. Just be careful you don't t...@Robert: I know. Just be careful you don't throw too wide a net. That's all.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23166374030866524082012-02-07T08:29:02.504-08:002012-02-07T08:29:02.504-08:00Good point Phil.
So synophrys is definitely out ...Good point Phil. <br /><br />So synophrys is definitely out if you want to be innovative?Mizz Harpyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18220764076008867988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-5270489834432053112012-02-07T07:34:38.858-08:002012-02-07T07:34:38.858-08:00Maybe it stands for Motley CRU, in an attempt to b...Maybe it stands for Motley CRU, in an attempt to be relevant?<br />(joke)Nash Equilibriumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528684112014026512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9646448083394660942012-02-07T05:14:27.276-08:002012-02-07T05:14:27.276-08:00I was reminded of this post this morning as I lste...I was reminded of this post this morning as I lstened to Alistair Begg preach about Paul's instructions to Timothy. What really brought this post to my mind was that at the beginning, Begg said that Paul's instructions to Timothy had to do with affirmation of the truth and not innovation. It should only make sense that the pastoral epistles are where church leaders ought to turn for advice on methodology.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-83542733143485881712012-02-07T05:11:47.176-08:002012-02-07T05:11:47.176-08:00Sir Aaron,
I'm not saying that everybody who ...Sir Aaron,<br /><br />I'm not saying that everybody who does this has a fake love for the Lord, but that what they are doign is fake. They are willing to change how they do things all the time to appeal to the lost, even when they don't believe that what the lost are involved with is good. And they sell out by not setting a Biblical standard and sticking with it. Instead, they just change to accomodate the newest fad or trend. In doing so, they may be undermining their own efforts by allowing worldliness to creep into their services.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-64395684515310537532012-02-07T03:08:25.319-08:002012-02-07T03:08:25.319-08:00I appreciate what I take to be a deliberate refere...I appreciate what I take to be a deliberate reference to the great Chris Elliott movie, "Cabin Boy," on the mock magazine cover.jmbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07164857192077648887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-7912313931103082222012-02-06T21:08:24.415-08:002012-02-06T21:08:24.415-08:00Trinity, I heard enough AC DC in the early eightie...Trinity, I heard enough AC DC in the early eighties to last a lifetime. I'd walk out of any church that played them no matter the point they were trying to make.Fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17982656987425276124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-38300311086026754632012-02-06T20:40:24.025-08:002012-02-06T20:40:24.025-08:00To Don and Trinity,
I'm afraid my poor writin...To Don and Trinity, <br />I'm afraid my poor writing skills have caused you to miss the point of my post. I'm not calling the hymnal a sappy songbook but there are some sappy lightweight songs in ours. These songs seem to be the favorite of some who take pride in being traditional rather than meaty teaching doctrinal Hymns. I Love Hymns especially Hymns by those who you mentioned. My reference to sappy song is regarding a purposeful efforts to use songs rather than the great hymns of the past. This article says it better than I'm able to articulate in this post.<br /><br /> http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/A261/style-or-substance. <br /><br />I hadn't heard of the leadership network before this post. I guess my point was focusing too much on style over substance is a problem for example clinging to a style from the 40's and 50's just for traditions sake. My reference to polity was in regards to most SBC Churches of which I'm a member.Fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17982656987425276124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10882392794243773922012-02-06T20:40:03.376-08:002012-02-06T20:40:03.376-08:00To Don and Trinity,
I'm afraid my poor writin...To Don and Trinity, <br />I'm afraid my poor writing skills have caused you to miss the point of my post. I'm not calling the hymnal a sappy songbook but there are some sappy lightweight songs in ours. These songs seem to be the favorite of some who take pride in being traditional rather than meaty teaching doctrinal Hymns. I Love Hymns especially Hymns by those who you mentioned. My reference to sappy song is regarding a purposeful efforts to use songs rather than the great hymns of the past. This article says it better than I'm able to articulate in this post.<br /><br /> http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/A261/style-or-substance. <br /><br />I hadn't heard of the leadership network before this post. I guess my point was focusing too much on style over substance is a problem for example clinging to a style from the 40's and 50's just for traditions sake. My reference to polity was in regards to most SBC Churches of which I'm a member.Fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17982656987425276124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21274542259575396642012-02-06T20:07:23.719-08:002012-02-06T20:07:23.719-08:00Darlene - CRU is what use to be called Campus Crus...Darlene - CRU is what use to be called Campus Crusade for Christ. They said that crusade was becoming offensive and they went further and took "Christ" out of the name. I don't know what CRU stands for? It's not even a word.CRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01912897040503058967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10913991666511693012012-02-06T19:46:58.395-08:002012-02-06T19:46:58.395-08:00I am currently working out of state. I miss my ch...I am currently working out of state. I miss my church dearly. The manager I am working for invited me and to her church with her family. I was excited. Key word was. She told me how much I would enjoy the service. She said it is so "relevant" to todays culture! I went online a couple days before and listned to some of the messages. Nothing about the blood of Jesus. Nothing about sin. Nothing about the current condition of so many souls. It was a pep rally. It was a party. In the grand scheme of things it was not "relevant" at all. I stayed in my hotel Sunday morning listening to podcasts of my pastor back home preaching through the book of Isaiah. Continue to pray for these churches.CTaylor3113https://www.blogger.com/profile/06649203928615388054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-15403559257396899592012-02-06T18:31:24.483-08:002012-02-06T18:31:24.483-08:00Sir Aaron:
What is "CRU"?Sir Aaron:<br /><br />What is "CRU"?Darlenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01183436767997017002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-70123454844032701812012-02-06T18:09:53.577-08:002012-02-06T18:09:53.577-08:00Excellent post, Phil. Innovation of course isn...Excellent post, Phil. Innovation of course isn't itself the problem but the idea behind much innovation: that only by accommodating oneself to the world's fashions, likes and dislikes can one gain a large audience and thereby make an impact. What evangelicalism needs though, isn't slick marketers and pollsters whose hidden agenda is wordly success, but men of gospel passion and blameless character committed to telling the truth in love so as to make mature disciples, who measure success by faithfulness to the serious task of accurately proclaiming the faith, who treasure eternal rewards and the pleasure of their Master above all earthly gain or acclaim.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15313399142702413436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89394390169161800712012-02-06T17:25:56.691-08:002012-02-06T17:25:56.691-08:00Some of the best examples of the word being exhort...Some of the best examples of the word being exhorted in season and out of season is the latest outcroppings of young men who are studious, disciplined, and creative enough to make some of the best rap out there that is reformed to the core and gospel saturated. Some of the worst examples out there are seasoned men in the ministry who have looked studious and disciplined decided to lean upon their own understanding and write best selling fodder with a slick cover and advocate a new law and a new yoke.<br /><br />Looking forward to the rest of this series.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10044277928052759074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72897870392370077312012-02-06T15:41:36.211-08:002012-02-06T15:41:36.211-08:00Innovation and Relevance:
http://vimeo.com/256020...Innovation and Relevance:<br /><br />http://vimeo.com/25602048Jonathan Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05900225465013427553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-29345931323112882302012-02-06T15:34:02.749-08:002012-02-06T15:34:02.749-08:00@Robert 4:50AM comment.
I don't like to cast ...@Robert 4:50AM comment.<br /><br />I don't like to cast aspersions. Many of the Pastors I've known personally, who apply a one or more elements of "innovation", genuinely and passionately love the Lord as best as I can see. They just have a terrible theology based on arminianism and bad hermeneutics.<br /><br />As an immature Christian I thought such things made sense. But as I matured in the faith and my understanding of the Word, I realized how much "innovation" compromised the Gospel.<br /><br />Anyways, not all of them are "fake." Despite leaving my seeker sensitive church because of the theology, I still believe the Pastors loved Christ, loved His people and I still care for those Pastors deeply.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84489937321114186652012-02-06T15:29:03.424-08:002012-02-06T15:29:03.424-08:00"May you draw ever closer to Him as the Day d..."May you draw ever closer to Him as the Day draws near."-Darlene<br /><br />Thank you. I pray His Spirit does that for us both.<br /><br />I think you may be correct in that my "jargon" is a bit too picky.<br /><br />I suppose what I was trying to say is that God in His grace, works in His elect "to will and to do". Our fruit we bear in this age is of our Lord, and He has all glory due to His grace and Spirit, who works in us; both our hearts and minds.<br /><br />And even though there's this fruit in our lives, it has nothing to add to the truth of our names being written on His nail-scarred palms.<br />His precious blood is all our righteousness and forgiveness.<br /><br />I truly appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Darlene.<br /><br />You are an encouragement to me. Have a blessed evening in our Savior's love and joy and peace!<br /><br />Gal. 6:14 All for the Cross.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86248355729918498822012-02-06T15:24:16.764-08:002012-02-06T15:24:16.764-08:00@Tom Chantry:
My Church was planted by another &q...@Tom Chantry:<br /><br />My Church was planted by another "small" church.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62643296754991906762012-02-06T15:22:48.441-08:002012-02-06T15:22:48.441-08:00@Darlene:
Many seeker sensitive types encouraged ...@Darlene:<br /><br />Many seeker sensitive types encouraged and engaged in very long periods of fasting. Bill Bright was known to fast quite a bit. In fact, "CRU" still has an extensive section on fasting.<br /><br />But fasting isn't really on topic, is it?Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79348214013747760462012-02-06T14:57:28.284-08:002012-02-06T14:57:28.284-08:00Don,
Thank you for responding to my inquiry.
Fi...Don,<br /> <br />Thank you for responding to my inquiry.<br /><br /><i>First, I don't fast the way that I should, that's the way it is with me.</i><br /><br />I appreciate your honesty.<br /><br /><i>To imitate Christ is folly.</i><br /><br />I've never heard a Christian (the ones I know) ever say or allude to such a thing. Perhaps you could elaborate on this theme a bit.<br /><br />Some many years ago, during a time of personal tragedy and sorrow, I cried out to God in desperation. I recall during that painful time finding a book that was instrumental for me - <i>The Imitation of Christ</i> by Thomas a Kempis. While I am not a Catholic, what I read penetrated my heart with a longing to know this Christ, it stirred within me a desire to know and love God, and revealed my inability to do so by my own power, though I impossibly tried to do so. <br /><br />When I spoke of imitating, I was thinking of Scripture. To be precise, I was thinking of Philippians in which St. Paul says, <i>"Have this same mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus."</i> And the beloved apostle John also reminds us <i>"By this we may be sure that we are in Him; he who says he abides in Him ought to walk in the same way in which He walked."</i> This sounds quite like imitating to me. Furthermore, don't disciples desire to imitate their Master, Who is Jesus Christ? As I heard a evangelical friend of mine once say, "We must walk the talk." <br /><br /><i>To commune with Christ is different, but I would say, we need to draw nearer to our Lord and Savior.</i><br /><br />Sometimes Christians miss each other due to jargon. But yes, to draw near to God is one way to express the point I was trying to make.<br /><br /><i>We draw near through prayer, the Word, and being with the people of God. To have good pastors to feed our souls and minds.</i><br /><br />Yes indeed!<br /><br /><i>Jesus said, "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you cannot abide with Me, and I with you."<br />John 6<br />And this has nothing to do with the Lord's Supper BTW.</i><br /><br />I already know this is how Calvinists believe. I would differ with you, (but what do my feeble protestations really mean?) Perhaps on another day, at another time.<br /><br /><i>The main thing for the Christian, no matter what Denom, is to understand the Gospel truth.</i><br /><br />Understanding is very important, but incomplete. For once we understand, it must penetrate the very depths of our heart so that Christ becomes alive within us - so that He lives through us. As Christians we have the very privilege of being partakers of His very life - His divine nature. <br /><br /><i>Christ died for sinners, and He rose from the dead.</i><br /><br />Yes indeed.<br /><br />The incarnation, the cross, the tomb, the ascension, the entire life of Christ was to impart forgiveness and life to us. I live because He lives. I am able to love because He has given His love to me. <br /><br />He is our Peace.<br /><br />May you draw ever closer to Him as the Day draws near.Darlenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01183436767997017002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62503002324437718642012-02-06T14:55:35.939-08:002012-02-06T14:55:35.939-08:00@Strategem:
You've hit on something. Most ch...@Strategem:<br /><br />You've hit on something. Most churches don't believe that but instead believe in a manner of Arminianism. People will make their own choices, therefore, we need to make the choice more palatable to them.<br /><br />I went to a seeker sensitive church and it is perfectly logical according to marketing principles. The seeker sensitive model, which primarily the leader in "innovation" in churches, is based on the presupposition that most Americans think of themselves as Christians. So they refer to people as "unchurched" rather than unbelievers, unsaved, lost, etc. In order to get these people into the church you appeal to their "felt" physical and spiritual needs. You slowly introduce them to the essential doctrine of Christianity much like boiling a frog by bringing the water to a slow boil. Wahla! One day the regular attenders wake up and realize their true Christians!<br /><br />Anyways, this whole "innovation" concept that Phil talks about is built on the foundation that man will make his choice outside of God. So if man makes his choice, we make methods that appeal to men.<br /><br />You and I know differently, being good Calvinists.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.com