tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post511266622503517563..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Strange Fire Conference #4: Steve Lawson on Calvin and the CharismaticsPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-18517350282312123632013-11-01T05:57:44.533-07:002013-11-01T05:57:44.533-07:00Turk: Nothin' but net.Turk: Nothin' but net.LanternBrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14727003028902907286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89679280553657352442013-10-31T10:22:28.483-07:002013-10-31T10:22:28.483-07:00[con't]
| I'll re-phrase my question:
| ...[con't]<br /><br />| I'll re-phrase my question: <br />| <br />| Was not A primary purpose for the gifts, <br />| biblically, to build up and strengthen the <br />| Body of Christ (I Corinthians 12-14)? <br /><br />Here’s one answer which I think is utterly appropriate given the way you allegedly make your case:<br /><br />“The purpose of the Gifts are to cause people to know Jesus is Lord and Christ (Book of Acts).”<br /><br />My prooftext is bigger than yours, so I must be right – but let’s face it, that answer is as shabby as your question and alleged prooftext are, so let me be more sober and serious for a moment.<br /><br />If what you mean to say is that 1 Cor 12:4-11 indicates that the Holy Spirit has many gifts for the common (meaning: general) good of the body of Christ, you have to ask yourself a couple of things as you reach for the term “shelf life” and try to leverage it to your point:<br /><br />1. How does 1 Cor 12:22-26 fit into your trump doctrine? That is: which gifts or “parts” are weaker, the less honorable? You better not turn the page to 1 Cor 13:8-12 to answer that, otherwise you’re going to find yourself worried about the shelf life of the things a child understands rather than the things which go on forever.<br /><br />2. At what point will any of you, but you specifically LBB, give us examples of these so-called gifts you’re practicing actually doing good in the body of Christ? Where can you show me these gifts making people better lovers of others, better grace-givers, people more full of joy, peace, patience, and goodness? I’d like to see two, if you please, because I think anyone can find one example if they are remotely clever. StrangeFire has demonstrated the overwhelming tide of sewage coming out of this doctrinal gutter. You show us the baby, please.<br /><br />3. If you mean 1 Cor 14:26, do you find yourself at all abashed by the fact that what Paul is talking about there is the minimization of ecstatic stuff and the maximization of corporate, orderly worship? If not, why not? You want to avoid being gullible, after all, so please: let’s not be gullible about what passes for a worship service in most Charismatic churches.<br /><br />| What is the "shelf life" of the Body of <br />| Christ? <br /><br />That’s a joke, right? A punchline? If that’s an argument, why did Jesus ascend into heaven – or is the right use of that argument that because the Church doesn’t have a shelf life, Jesus is still physically here on Earth someplace?<br /><br />| Perhaps their intended "shelf life" is <br />| until the revealing of the Lord Jesus <br />| Christ? (I Corinthians 1:7-8)<br /><br />You say that as if, for example, there is more Scripture to be written as opposed to the plain text of Heb 1:1-3a. <br /><br />I’m not impressed.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-65509120002906190962013-10-31T10:22:21.037-07:002013-10-31T10:22:21.037-07:00I’m breaking out of Hiatus to respond to Bryan Bur...I’m breaking out of Hiatus to respond to Bryan Burke. This will be my only response, so I guess by default he gets the last word.<br /><br />| ... I must still be lost because I can't find a <br />| sufficient answer to my question.<br /><br />It’s because you don’t want an answer to your question, if I may be so bold: you think that if you keep asking, you can imagine you are still in ignorance.<br /><br />Most people following this discussion overall – not just you personally, but the Strange Fire wildfires everywhere – know your question(s) have been answered and are puzzled that you folks asking these question still have the confused dog look on your faces.<br /><br />| Do you really think I should gullibly ...<br /><br />Don’t put that word into play here. If you’re going to admit there’s some kind of gullibility runninga round in this discussion, the obvious fact that it’s all over the “continualist” side of this discussion cannot be escaped, and as such it needs to be dealt with.<br /><br />When “continualists” can explain their native gullibility when it comes to the long list of frauds and charlatans in their own camp in such a way that it is a virtue, we can then worry about so-called “hermeneutical gullibility”.<br /><br />| ... concede to the hermeneutical <br />| gymnastics you guys have done around <br />| I Corinthians 12-14 while preaching <br />| Sola Scriptura, by simply re-reading this <br />| post and re-watching Steve's <br />| peremptory sermon? <br />| <br />| "Define the gifts' purpose Biblically, and <br />| you define their intended shelf-life." <br /><br />That is actually all the answer you need. That is actually all the argument, biblically, you need. The question “What are the gifts for” so badly ruins any form of modern charismaticism that it is embarrassing to watch you guys toss it out there as if it’s your lifeline to some future where there are no more Todd Bentleys or Paula Whites or Benn Hinns.<br /><br />The answer to the question “what are the Gifts for?” excludes all the things indicative of the charismatic movement, because let’s face it: whatever they are good for, they are certainly good for, as they are practiced today, leading people away from wisdom, sanctification, repentence, and fellowship in Christ.<br /><br />[More]FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53607983618188770052013-10-30T18:18:14.251-07:002013-10-30T18:18:14.251-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.L. Bryan Burkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02257634575718953109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39269420395547187572013-10-30T12:48:14.899-07:002013-10-30T12:48:14.899-07:00Um... same answer as to the other guy.Um... same answer as to the other guy.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-83823514539821540532013-10-30T12:47:24.036-07:002013-10-30T12:47:24.036-07:00Welcome to Pyromaniacs!
The actual post is above ...Welcome to Pyromaniacs!<br /><br />The actual post is <i>above</i> the comments. You have to to up to the big print that says the title and "by Dan Phillips," then read what comes after that, between "First post" and "as His means."<br /><br />That part has the answer to your question.<br /><br />Or for more, <a href="http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/TM13-4/calvins-critique-of-charismatic-calvinists-steve-lawson" rel="nofollow">listen to Lawson's whole talk</a>.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51496258572047897082013-10-30T12:44:59.137-07:002013-10-30T12:44:59.137-07:00" 'Define the gifts' purpose Biblical..." 'Define the gifts' purpose Biblically, and you define their intended shelf-life.'<br />One of the sanest things I've ever heard."<br /><br />Really? Was not the primary purpose for the gifts, biblically speaking, to build up and strengthen the Body of Christ (I Corinthians 12-14)? What is the "shelf life" of the Body of Christ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78896548244390455702013-10-30T12:43:22.293-07:002013-10-30T12:43:22.293-07:00" 'Define the gifts' purpose Biblical..." 'Define the gifts' purpose Biblically, and you define their intended shelf-life.'<br />One of the sanest things I've ever heard."<br /><br />Really? Was not the primary purpose for the gifts, biblically, to build up and strengthen the Body of Christ (I Corinthians 12-14)? What is the "shelf life" of the Body of Christ? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-35643254783220411422013-10-30T10:42:45.020-07:002013-10-30T10:42:45.020-07:00Actually Dan, wouldn't there be three streams ...Actually Dan, wouldn't there be three streams of revelation: general revelation, special revelation, and really special revelation (for me, because I'm really special)?Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16345630463450652762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-15079488580158591832013-10-30T10:40:58.771-07:002013-10-30T10:40:58.771-07:00Dan,
How much would allegorical interpretation or...Dan,<br /><br />How much would allegorical interpretation or spiritualizing of scripture move outside of the stream of truth? When highly subjective interpretation comes out of an allegorical approach, let's say related to an attempt at overt continuity between the Old and the New Testaments, could that be something different than scripture having its say, and, instead, the man or some subjective spirituality be having the say?Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53993235161172263302013-10-30T10:21:22.576-07:002013-10-30T10:21:22.576-07:00My husband and I were actually able to stream this...My husband and I were actually able to stream this session. The most memorable quote for me was about the dog who barks when he sees someone assault his master. Nothing irritates the "neighbors" of our faith like a barking reformer. ;-)Cathy M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08107932375538192094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2665474414912745542013-10-30T08:40:38.601-07:002013-10-30T08:40:38.601-07:00"We must/mustn't believe X because Theolo..."We must/mustn't believe X because Theologian Z did/didn't believe it" is not an argument that I'd make.<br /><br />However, if a harmful and/or Biblically-deviant movement such as Charismaticism/continuationism were to try to paint itself with false respectability by cloaking itself in Calvin's name or associating itself with his teachings, that's worth pointing out.<br /><br />When the topic of the post is being baptistic or dispensatoinalistic, we can explore that further. Meanwhile, back to Charismaticism....DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80318719811214222702013-10-30T08:19:36.274-07:002013-10-30T08:19:36.274-07:00Right, no one is looking to settle the issue with ...Right, no one is looking to settle the issue with "What saith Calvin?" how ever helpful he might be.<br /><br />But the comment being made is "you're not a <i>real</i> Calvinist." Which seems kind of ironic coming from dispensational baptists.Daniel Klevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05345321896340574768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79362891882962926782013-10-30T07:49:49.005-07:002013-10-30T07:49:49.005-07:00I'm sure you're right, Daniel. In itself, ...I'm sure you're right, Daniel. In itself, it isn't a dispositive fact, Scripture must have the final say.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46377347814692087632013-10-30T07:47:22.698-07:002013-10-30T07:47:22.698-07:00"For Calvin, a charismatic Calvinist would be..."For Calvin, a charismatic Calvinist would be an oxymoron."<br /><br />I'm all for clarity in identification, but couldn't it also be said "For Calvin, a baptist Calvinist would be an oxymoron." or "a dispensationalist Calvinist", etc. ?<br /><br />In other words, it seemed like one of the intended points was "if you're going to call yourself a charismatic, don't call yourself a Calvinist." <br /><br />Why not the same with "baptist," etc.?Daniel Klevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05345321896340574768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27283169987744857702013-10-30T06:25:40.608-07:002013-10-30T06:25:40.608-07:00"Define the gifts' purpose Biblically, an..."Define the gifts' purpose Biblically, and you define their intended shelf-life."<br /><br />One of the sanest things I've ever heard.LanternBrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14727003028902907286noreply@blogger.com