tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post5238340326597595055..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: A question about "seekers," and sensitivity thereuntoPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger104125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45507551343899860572008-03-12T09:44:00.000-07:002008-03-12T09:44:00.000-07:00Wenxian, you write great comments. Please continu...Wenxian, you write great comments. Please continue.<BR/><BR/>Daryl, Stefan, et al, we're on the same page. My point about linking Scot McKnight's article about a "Robust Gospel" is that we're going to be entering into a definitional quagmire. And this quagmire has downstream consequences leading to other quagmires. It is messy and ugly.<BR/><BR/>I didn't particularly care for the article either. And I'm not enamored with Scot McKnight either, although he did contend against the Jesus Seminar theo-libs.<BR/><BR/>Christianity Today has a large readership. Scot McKnight has some degree of "standing" within the "evangelical" community. If he defines the marks of "robust" gospel as being ....., then that naturally affects how the "Gospel" is preached and lived out in a church and by that church's pastoral staff.<BR/><BR/>How you define a Christian, how you define the Gospel, and other key definitions will shape how you present the message of Christ to the local community of "seekers" in that church area.<BR/><BR/>At its core, what the TeamPyro blog and other blogs do is critique (appropriately IMHO) the underlying presuppositions and definitions driving other Christians and Christian leaders. <BR/><BR/>My observation: There is NO consensus on these definitions. Scripture is the Final Authority. But that Final Authority does get abused.<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, I will reiterate: It's one thing to blog about the theological and ecclesiastical errors you see; but it's an entirely different matter to biblically confront those who are erring in your own life or in your own church.<BR/><BR/>Pax.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80434235490947484722008-03-12T09:15:00.000-07:002008-03-12T09:15:00.000-07:00TUAD,I think i'm not really good at writing commen...TUAD,<BR/><BR/>I think i'm not really good at writing comments but what i meant was that these people are coming to a biblically solid church (defined by the word 'our church' - ref my previous comment) <BR/><BR/>After reading the rest of your comment addressed to me, i realised that we are in agreement. So no issues here.Affyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16553822567399201625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47070886365325787242008-03-12T08:02:00.000-07:002008-03-12T08:02:00.000-07:00"My brain grows just by reading all of you guys......"My brain grows just by reading all of you guys..."<BR/><BR/>Pedro, there's a small operation that can correct that...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-49085939913886793412008-03-12T07:42:00.000-07:002008-03-12T07:42:00.000-07:00Strong Tower,"Discipline, discipline, discipline.....Strong Tower,<BR/><BR/>"Discipline, discipline, discipline... It cannot be said enough. The cost is everything. The cost must be presented. The cost demanded. Or, no deal. So our methods of outreach must include early, the call to discipleship. "<BR/><BR/>Amen to that… In line with Dr. MacArthur’s “Hard to Believe” teaching.<BR/><BR/>My brain grows just by reading all of you guys... Thanks DJP.Pedrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04388410433686445227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61328362199942051812008-03-12T06:43:00.000-07:002008-03-12T06:43:00.000-07:00TUAD, I have read Scott McKnight's article. Sadly...TUAD, I have read Scott McKnight's article. Sadly, I found my response while reading it was the same as the response I have from reading other things he wrote. That is, I simply don't get it. He seems to combine a whole bunch of the results of the gospel into the gospel itself, thus muddying the clarity of the good news that Paul summarized in 1 Corinthians 15, "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared . . ."<BR/><BR/>Yes, the results of receiving that message in faith are important. Without them, ultimately a person is showing by continuing in the darkness that their profession of faith is a lie, but to make those results part of the gospel takes the good news from being good news, to being something else completely.Rileysownerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17212451614350376972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62106821941694852742008-03-12T05:14:00.000-07:002008-03-12T05:14:00.000-07:00TUAD,I read the article... His "robust gospel" is ...TUAD,<BR/><BR/>I read the article... His "robust gospel" is a predictable social gospel that vastly underestimates sin and vastly over plays our role in society. That is, Jesus didn't come to establish a "new society" he came to save His people from their sins. A far larger and more significant task.<BR/>He confuses the kingdom with it's effects, in my view. Which I think is the EC version of the SS mistake. That is, he's looking for felt needs, telling the church they're ignoring them, and then making the solving of those needs "the gospel".<BR/><BR/>I think "robust" is a word specifically chosen to make other, more actually gospel centred churches feel bad. Just like the EC and SS like to talk about church being "messy". The implication being that orthodox believers like things clean and avoid trouble like the plague.<BR/><BR/>In short... :) anytime someone says something like this:<BR/><BR/>"Sure the gospel includes saving us from sin but...."<BR/><BR/>be wary, what follows will not be good.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73641067674870076962008-03-12T05:03:00.000-07:002008-03-12T05:03:00.000-07:00TUAD,I haven't had a chance to look at that articl...TUAD,<BR/><BR/>I haven't had a chance to look at that article yet...but to your other comment...<BR/><BR/>I think that substituting "seeker-sensitive" with "great commission" would be to completely overlook the seeker-sensitive movement which aims to enlarge churches. Even a cursory review will demonstrate that you do that by not offending people and telling them how much God loves them. It's based on (at least) semi-Pelagian theology that suggests that people must be convinced to believe and so what you want to do is bring them in and do what you can to not scare them away, hoping that if they stay, someday they just might decide to believe in God.<BR/><BR/>The Great Commission says...make disciples. Jesus saves, we disciple, so teach and feed meat and solid food. If they go, they go.<BR/><BR/>By the way, yeah... the term seeker-sensitive makes my skin crawl. Primarily because, in my experience, the whole movement is predicated on lost folks knowing what they need, and saved folks needing to learn at home and not expect anything from the church. Blech!!<BR/><BR/>Oh and, by the way again...we only left our church because we moved. I'm not sure how we would've handled things had we stayed in the city. Mostly we did things like ask elders "what is the gospel" and poke around to see if the church really was committed to this philosophy...I'm sooo glad we moved, it saved a lot of heartache I think.<BR/><BR/>Wenxian,<BR/><BR/>you said:<BR/><BR/>"They came seeking for God, (or if you want to be really exact, God enabled them to come seek Him), not to go to a church and act like whining babies asking for attention."<BR/><BR/>I would dispute that. If it were true mega-churches would be full of bible believing Christians. I'm not sure they are.<BR/>They came, like the rich young ruler, seeking to justify themselves or fix a marriage. God, as presented in all of Scripture, is the last thing they want.<BR/>If they really wanted God, they be leaving the seeker-sensitive churches in droves, looking for a more biblically solid church instead. They're not doing that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53219741510998969272008-03-12T03:22:00.000-07:002008-03-12T03:22:00.000-07:00TUAD,[But in making a judgment about a potential "...TUAD,<BR/><BR/>[But in making a judgment about a potential "seeker", how do you make sure that you're making a righteous judgment, and not a pharasaical judgment?]<BR/><BR/>I think stefan has answerred your question well in comment #87. <BR/><BR/>In addition, i think that if a person comes to our church, they should 'play by our rules'. They came seeking for God, (or if you want to be really exact, God enabled them to come seek Him), not to go to a church and act like whining babies asking for attention. <BR/><BR/>We tell them the full counsel of God, holiness and wrath mixed with meekness and majesty; completely God-centred. They will usually have 2 reactions:<BR/><BR/>They accept.<BR/><BR/>They leave.<BR/><BR/>If they leave and start complaining about how their (non biblical) wants (e.g. pretty girls, friends, job opportunities, feel good factor, marriage, etc etc etc) are not heard, we can safely make the judgement that they were looking for a seeker sensitive church. And vice versa.<BR/><BR/>As for labelling ss churches, there will come a point in their church history where they as a church will be forced to make a decision between being seeker sensitive and being firm for God, for they are in great conflict.<BR/><BR/>It is also quite easily seen in the content of their sermons, their mission statements, and the kind of disciples that are produced from people who are committed in that church, and the people they recommend or invite into their churches. Perhaps that is why 2John1 was so strict when in comes to welcoming 'false teachers':<BR/><BR/>[2John 1:10-11, NIV] 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work. <BR/><BR/> The bible is full of ways how we see the fruits of believers e.g. Galatians 5. It is also written that whatever is hidden will be made known, so their false fruits will be evident as well.Affyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16553822567399201625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74116885434504019672008-03-12T01:53:00.000-07:002008-03-12T01:53:00.000-07:00Sorry one more thing ... "So help us God".Sorry one more thing ... "So help us God".jukshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06912286504972736756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80533724595425922732008-03-12T01:51:00.000-07:002008-03-12T01:51:00.000-07:00I would add: in humility and gentleness tell peopl...I would add: in humility and gentleness tell people the TRUTH, the WHOLE TRUTH and nothing but the TRUTH, from the beginning, in whatever culture and situation both now and forever. Let God worry about who the 'seekers' are. (See Phil Johnson in Session 8 last week at SC from Acts 17).jukshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06912286504972736756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-15150211302049102422008-03-12T01:46:00.000-07:002008-03-12T01:46:00.000-07:00Your first comment said: Some seek and find Him. S...Your first comment said: Some seek and find Him. Some seek, find Him and walk away. Some don't seek and find Him. Some don't seek and will do everything they can to crucify Him.<BR/><BR/>I would say: None seek HIM for who HE truly is. (Rom 3). HE seeks and saves the lost. As in John 6 He first does church shrinkage before He does church growth. Then you know that those that come do so not of their own primary volition but due to God's. John Macarthur summed it up beautifully last week at the SC session 1 - don't appeal to man's falleness when proclaiming the gospel. I would add: don't try and add people to the body of Christ that He hasnt added! Its impossible and ALWAYS fails in the long run. Deadly.jukshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06912286504972736756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77840873106515215212008-03-11T22:19:00.000-07:002008-03-11T22:19:00.000-07:00TUAD!TUAD!Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55751861068389643892008-03-11T22:16:00.000-07:002008-03-11T22:16:00.000-07:00This thread will serve as an enxcellent entree int...This thread will serve as an enxcellent entree into Phil Johnson's upcoming posts about "contextualizing" the Gospel. I look forward to PJ definining "contextualization" and how to do it so that the Gospel is not diluted, watered down, and compromised in trying to accommodate and appease thin-skinned, easily-provoked, overly-defensive-and-thus-easily-offended "seekers" about the True Gospel message of Jesus Christ.<BR/><BR/>On a related note, I read one pastor's definition of who is a Christian:<BR/><BR/>“To be Christian means that Christ is your savior and God and you have called upon him to have mercy on you based upon what he did on the cross.“<BR/><BR/>My point.... how you define who and what a Christian is... may influence how a church corporately practices the Great Commission and how the church "contextualizes" the Gospel for its local community of "seekers."Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-64070633501886142922008-03-11T19:29:00.000-07:002008-03-11T19:29:00.000-07:00Thanks djp- I just read your 5:29 post- you are a ...Thanks djp- I just read your 5:29 post- you are a man of few words that say alot-<BR/><BR/>It's just not in me...<BR/><BR/>Anyway, yu da man!Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23309722242921390192008-03-11T19:08:00.000-07:002008-03-11T19:08:00.000-07:00Submission-Of course we cannot know what is in a m...Submission-<BR/><BR/>Of course we cannot know what is in a man's heart as Jesus did, he needed that no man tell him, but...<BR/><BR/>The Pharisees went out and immediately held counsel with the Herodians against him, how to destroy him... later...<BR/><BR/>When Herod saw Jesus, he was very glad, for he had long desired to see him, because he had heard about him, and he was hoping to see some sign done by him...<BR/><BR/>Here's something about Herod- it might have been a story running through the family traditions that a child had been born that would be king...<BR/><BR/>Jesus claimed to be that child...<BR/><BR/>Herod had been for some time plotting the death of Jesus...<BR/><BR/>He had him now in his clutches, that is why he was happy to see him...<BR/><BR/>It was not as if Jesus needed to use the Spirit to discern Herod's heart, it was obvious to the world.<BR/><BR/>Lesson learned, know your enemy. Until they are converted and become as little children (disciples) they are an enemy...<BR/><BR/>But, here is the thing sparky:<BR/><BR/>Througout Jesus' earthly ministry the first thing on the agenda was always the Gospel, for that is why he came, Isaiah 61, cf. Isaiah 53. The Jews knew well the references he had made and were putting him to the test all along; Deuteronomy 6:16, which is what the tempter does. Asking for signs,(what you can get out of it), is not a good way to seek the Lord.<BR/><BR/>Now, we must make sure that when we present the Gospel, that those hearing understand the gravity of the Word being spoken: "And proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, [2] cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay. 9 Acquire no gold nor silver nor copper for your belts, 10 no bag for your journey, nor two tunics [3] nor sandals nor a staff, for the laborer deserves his food. 11 And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart. 12 As you enter the house, greet it. 13 And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. 15 Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.<BR/><BR/>Find out who is worthy- there are some things we can accomodate- but in the process of giving it must be the Gospel first- the great Sword that causese division- understanding that the Sword is a fine surgical instrument, which in the hands of a skilled physician is the discerner of the intents of the hearts of men.<BR/><BR/>Key, you must be a skilled surgeon. Corollary, the great commission is not given to those in med school. Conclusion: we've a lot of premed students in the pulpits and the pews.<BR/><BR/>Jesus did this discerment thingy as a trained physician (senses trained to discern between good and evil). His Gospel appeals to all but not to all for the same reason... for some it is the appeal of circumventing threat, to some the appeal to cosmetic profit, to some it is the appeal to relief from the burden of sin and suffering under which they mourn.<BR/> <BR/>He also showed the seeker-strainer friendly approach. With Nicodemus he cut him off his routes, blitzed and tackled him before he could pass, with the rich young ruler he intercepted the pass and ran it back all the way, with the woman at the well he strung out the line and cut off her end run... In most cases he didn't use the Twilight Zone defense, even though he knew what was in the heart of every man. He used the seeker-strainer, mano a mono, hit em where their not looking approach. Even with the woman at the well, though he did there operate as a prophet, it was the woman's dialogue that he short circuited. With Herod, he did not need to do acrobatic charismatics, Herod's track record was well known, he simply relied on the scouting reports and waited for him tip betray his offense. When he sought entertainment, and not the Word, Jesus gave him just what he was looking for, nothing, for he needed nothing.<BR/><BR/>Now, back to my proposition: <A HREF="http://stevenjcamp.blogspot.com/2006/03/justification-by-faith-alone.html" REL="nofollow">COT presents a reading of Edwards.</A> And some of you may not think that the ole fire and brimstone is a good thing. And, I might agree in some cases, except, Jesus was about calling to himself disciples. And the Great Commission is about that too. Discipline, discipline, discipline... It cannot be said enough. The cost is everything. The cost must be presented. The cost demanded. Or, no deal. So our methods of outreach must include early, the call to discipleship. <BR/><BR/>The model of the feedings is that at some point in the pursuit of the benefits of the body of Christ, the hammer of the Lord must fall. You must give them Isaiah 55:2 salted with a little Proverbs 23:9 some hot Proverbs 23:13-14 with a nice side of Proverbs 23:6-8. Sip some unmixed wine with them while you contemplate what Proverbs 26 has to say about witnessing.<BR/><BR/>We need to ask, do we present a gospel in such a way that it does not require of the hearer the death of themselves as the price to be paid? Jesus did. That is WJWD because it is what Jesus has done on our behalf. That is what the Father asked when the Son replied, "Here Am I, send me."<BR/><BR/>With Herod it was never going to happen. He was looking to take another's life to preserve his status and life. And the signs that Harod gave determined the actions of the Lord, just as it did when he called for the crowds to eat of him. Their refusal was their turning away.<BR/><BR/>At some point you have to make known the committment that is required for them to continue to follow even to those who have been with you for a while. When they know what it is to follow, you will know what sort of seeker they are... well except for the Judas'.Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-65837398507289610642008-03-11T18:34:00.000-07:002008-03-11T18:34:00.000-07:00Okey doke.< shrug ><BR/><BR/>Okey doke.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73775623401756217162008-03-11T18:21:00.000-07:002008-03-11T18:21:00.000-07:00phehStill think you are taking a descriptive event...pheh<BR/><BR/>Still think you are taking a descriptive event and making too much itDavid A. Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00465387359523299616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47551377951317786382008-03-11T18:11:00.000-07:002008-03-11T18:11:00.000-07:00As an afterthought, there's a world of difference ...As an afterthought, there's a world of difference between being sensitive to "seekers" and being "seeker-sensitive."<BR/><BR/>Let me explain...our church welcomes all comers, from all walks of society and many different ethnic groups. We offer simultaneous translation; multiple language ministries; men's, women's, elderly, children's, and youth's ministries to both the lost and saved; Gospel-centered "Discovering Jesus" classes; and so on.<BR/><BR/>But all of this is geared towards preaching Christ and Him crucified. Our pastors never shy away from expository, Christ-centered preaching. Easter and Christmas services—primary opportunities to reach the lost—are anchored in the Gospel. Visitors are warmly welcomed, but the parameters of what they hear are defined in Scriptural terms, not human terms. When communion is offered, the pastor explains that it is for those who have a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ (to paraphrase). Those who do not are invited to pass the elements over, but it is explained that we understand were they're at, as we were all there at some point.<BR/><BR/>And so on. I'm sure that most other commenters' churches function in a similar fashion. "Seekers" are thus welcomed, but the message they hear (if they have ears to hear) is the Gospel, plain and simple. ...And when people are served the Gospel straight up, they come to Christ, and bear fruit as they grow to become mature believers.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-71371276017959605032008-03-11T18:00:00.000-07:002008-03-11T18:00:00.000-07:00Dan, thank you for your thought-provoking post and...Dan, thank you for your thought-provoking post and helpful comments of your own.<BR/><BR/>I found it helpful. Your explanation in the comments were quite satisfying and reasonable to me.Timothy Wonil Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02042515329741585937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72630601583660288832008-03-11T17:29:00.000-07:002008-03-11T17:29:00.000-07:00Eighty-plus comments; cool! Thanks to everyone who...Eighty-plus comments; cool! Thanks to everyone who seriously engaged.<BR/><BR/>Now, here are my thoughts.<BR/><BR/>The <I>least</I> we must draw from Jesus' example is that <B>every encounter is not necessarily controlled by the lost person's agenda.</B><BR/><BR/>Jesus, indeed, had His own agenda, and Herod had his. <I>The bare fact</I> that Herod wanted an encounter with "Jesus" was not the controlling factor to our Lord. We cannot do as the theology of some in fact does: take any nominally "god"ward instinct and project a straight line to the true God.<BR/><BR/>As some have said, Herod wanted entertainment, distraction. He wanted to control the encounter. He naturally would expect to: in a situation like this, most would beg for their lives, and if Herod wanted a pirate dance, they'd give him a pirate dance as if their lives depended on it.<BR/><BR/>Not Jesus. He did not address Herod's wants, didn't even nod to them.<BR/><BR/>Note: so far I have adduced <I>one (1) point</I>: <B>the sinner's wants or "felt needs" don't necessarily control the agenda.</B><BR/><BR/>And I think it is a pan-Biblical truth that the people of God should not adapt the agenda of the lost as their own, in the vain hopes that, if the world likes them better, they'll like God better. Here's God incarnate, and He passed up a golden opportunity to be better-liked by a "seeking" sinner.<BR/><BR/><B>Having said that</B>, I make three brief points:<BR/><BR/>1. Not being gifted with omniscience, I think love for God and for the lost should <I>always</I> move us to err on the side of communicating the Gospel.<BR/><BR/>But note: that's not what any part of my post was about. Read it. My post was <I>only</I> about whether Jesus' refusal to meet Herod's "felt needs" is instructive. I think it is.<BR/><BR/>2. There's a world of difference between telling someone the Gospel and being driven by his agenda. I've told this story before. When I was 17, I just wanted the doctor to do something about this dull ache in my side. If he had been driven by my agenda, my wants, I'd have died. Instead, he was driven by my needs, sent me to a surgeon, and my life was saved by an emergency appendectomy.<BR/><BR/>3. There is nothing wrong (and can be much wisdom) in taking the sinner's wants as a launchpad, but you use it to go where he <I>needs</I> to go, not necessarily where he <I>wants</I> to go. My pain drove me to the doctor; his wisdom drove me on to the surgeon.<BR/><BR/>And so the rich young ruler talks about "good"; well, Jesus has some thoughts about "good" for him to chew over. The woman wants water; Jesus will talk about her real thirst. And so on.<BR/><BR/>But in others, He just takes charge and does a 90-degree turn. "Nicodemus, that isn't what we really need to be talking about at all. Here's what you need to know:...."<<BR/><BR/>In some encounters, we'll take <I>right</I> up with what the unbeliever presents us with. In others, we'll apply a little English, or even reverse-English. In yet others (like Jesus here), we'll just let it go, letting the already-existing witness stand.<BR/><BR/>There.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51143099274230357792008-03-11T16:35:00.000-07:002008-03-11T16:35:00.000-07:00Stefan writes: "And unlike Jesus Christ, we can't...Stefan writes: <I>"And unlike Jesus Christ, we can't automatically discern what a person's motivations are...."</I><BR/><BR/>Exactly correct!! Thank you so much Stefan!<BR/><BR/>That is why I wrote previously:<BR/><BR/>Assume DJP's description. How can anyone say with reasonable certainty about a "seeker's" motivation without being judgmental? I believe that making a righteous judgment is biblical (John 7:24).<BR/><BR/>But in making a judgment about a potential "seeker", how do you make sure that you're making a righteous judgment, and <B>not</B> a pharasaical judgment?Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-52655963503432255512008-03-11T16:25:00.000-07:002008-03-11T16:25:00.000-07:00"Is the ss church heretical, mostly not. The issue...<I>"Is the ss church heretical, mostly not. The issue is far more what they don't say, than it is what they say wrong."</I><BR/><BR/>I agree with you Daryl. Although it raises an interesting question for me.<BR/><BR/><B>Can a pastor propagate and teach heresy through silence?</B><BR/><BR/>Furthermore, suppose the answer to that question is "Yes."<BR/><BR/>That elicits further questions. Which human being is going to keep track and monitor that the "hard sayings" of Scripture are being preached and taught in the proper amounts and in the proper periodic intervals from the pulpit to the congregation? Which human being wants the position of judge for that "seeker sensitive" church's pastoral staff? What's the criteria for preaching and teaching the whole counsel, and how was it chosen?Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-68696004874696674812008-03-11T16:23:00.000-07:002008-03-11T16:23:00.000-07:00I think there may have been some misunderstanding ...I think there may have been some misunderstanding somewhere upthread. I would classify myself as having been a "seeker" many years ago (as the seeker-sensitive movement would define it). I'm not saying that we should turn away "seekers" at all. Obviously God drives us to "seeking" Him out in the first place, so at some point, we were all "seekers," even if in the monergistic sense that the initiative was all God's.<BR/><BR/>Now, at the time, I <I>thought</I> I wanted to know about the "historical" Jesus, that merely enlightened guy that the humanists love so much. What God was stirring in me deep down in the depths of my soul—at a level I wasn't even conscious of at the time—was a desire to find the <I>real</I> Jesus, even if it would take me almost twenty years from when He first planted the seed in my consciousness, to when it would bear fruition in repentance and salvation.<BR/><BR/>So where I see the problem is in tayloring a church's whole message to give seekers what they <I>think</I> they want to hear, rather than what <I>God</I> wants them to hear. And unlike Jesus Christ, we can't automatically discern what a person's motivations are, so as Daryl suggested, "give 'em the gospel," and trust the Holy Spirit to give those whom God effectually calls, the ears to hear.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84926120770171879732008-03-11T16:05:00.000-07:002008-03-11T16:05:00.000-07:00J.R., dude, that's amazing. You should write a bo...J.R., dude, that's amazing. <BR/><BR/>You should write a book or something.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9599396429751461402008-03-11T15:27:00.000-07:002008-03-11T15:27:00.000-07:00Um... 'cause I'm smarter than I actually am?Um... 'cause I'm smarter than I actually am?<BR/><BR/>< scratches head >DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.com