tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post5384230425175089503..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Preaching the Cross to those without the categories to understand itPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85000094849942406362007-08-20T04:01:00.000-07:002007-08-20T04:01:00.000-07:00Your kind encouragement is much appreciated, Krist...Your kind encouragement is much appreciated, Kristine. God bless you both.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9885392620166946422007-08-17T09:56:00.000-07:002007-08-17T09:56:00.000-07:00This comment is a little late in coming, I know, b...This comment is a little late in coming, I know, but I haven't been able to sign into my account this week...even now, I've only been able to do so by hijacking my husband's computer at his office, while I visit for lunch. <BR/><BR/>I just wanted to say that I listened to your sermon the day that you posted it, and enjoyed it more than I have time to express, right now. <BR/><BR/>Thank you for faithful preaching and teaching; I've been blessed many times by it.Kristinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09208753353162363484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77016424104131543622007-08-15T08:35:00.000-07:002007-08-15T08:35:00.000-07:00Dan,I don't think you and I are really disagreeing...Dan,<BR/><BR/><I>I don't think you and I are really disagreeing, are we?</I><BR/><BR/>No.Terry Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00888533194435826837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87114554664908914982007-08-15T07:58:00.000-07:002007-08-15T07:58:00.000-07:00I appreciate your thoughtful and orderly observati...I appreciate your thoughtful and orderly observations, Terry. My response will be less of the latter, but hopefully not less of the former.<BR/><BR/>I'd be the last person to argue — and am not arguing — that the Gospel needs to presented in the same way to every person in every situation. Jesus didn't, the apostles didn't, we shouldn't.<BR/><BR/>And so in presenting it in this manner, I am far from suggesting, "OK, everybody, here's how we all have to do it until the next big intellectual fad hits!"<BR/><BR/>But when Paul was in the synagogues, he reasoned from the Law and the Prophets; when he was on Mars Hill, he had <I>exactly the same doctrine</I>, but framed it with direct quotations from Greek writers rather than from the OT. In fact, I would argue (strongly) that what he did there was <I>exactly the same</I> (in spirit) as what I attempted to do in my sermon: focused the hammer of God's truth as a corrective to their faulty, cyclical worldview, then presented the Gospel in its correct framework.<BR/><BR/>All that to say this: I just want folks to preach Christ. Period. Anyone who remembers the Chan video episode knows that, when Christ is preached, I rejoice.<BR/><BR/>BUT Wells and I (and you too, I'm sure) look at the broad and wide profession of "evangelical" faith in America, coupled with the thundering ignorance and shallowness and unholiness, and we ask, "Could we be doing something better? Are we missing something?"<BR/><BR/>And we answer ourselves "Yes." (c:<BR/><BR/>I don't think you and I are really disagreeing, are we?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67406776633838385382007-08-15T06:59:00.000-07:002007-08-15T06:59:00.000-07:00Terry,Good presuppositional approach.But even Paul...Terry,<BR/><BR/>Good presuppositional approach.<BR/><BR/>But even Paul in acts 17 spoke of God the Creator, and in Romans 5 of the fall of man through Adam.<BR/><BR/>But I do agree with your point about the supernatural opening of the heart to the "foolish" message of the cross and Christ crucified.Leberwursthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00009160566385299355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-31434054661182968472007-08-15T06:41:00.000-07:002007-08-15T06:41:00.000-07:00Dan, A few comments, after listening to both your ...Dan, <BR/><BR/>A few comments, after listening to both your good message and David Wells', which I have now done:<BR/><BR/>1. My first reaction to the general idea that Post-Moderns of this amoral generation don't see their need of a Savior was, "Well, is the Gospel that we're not ashamed of the power of God for salvation or not? Is it only the power of God for salvation for those who have been "prepped" by a thorough Old Tesament survey?"<BR/><BR/>2. Both your's and David's messages were well-thought-out, and have much truth in them. But I'm still bothered by the general idea expressed by David when he said something like, "God patiently laid out the whole of redemptive history from Genesis to the Gospel, and we should have His kind of patience when dealing with PoMo sinners."<BR/><BR/>That's a hard idea to disagree with, because sometimes time is involved in a person's "journey" to Christ. "One plants, another waters, but God gives the increase."<BR/><BR/>Yet I can't help thinking that what someone *says* they think about right and wrong and their need for a Savior, is different than what is actually in their heart. Let me expand in #3.<BR/><BR/>3. One of the most brilliant things pointed out by C.S. Lewis in <I>Mere Christianity</I> is that man has a built-in idea that some things are right and others wrong, even if his standards are far below God's. <BR/><BR/>For example, if a strong young man gets on the bus with a feeble old lady, and he kicks her down on the bus floor and steps on her to scramble ahead of her for the only seat available, there's not likely to be a person on the bus who doesn't think, 'That's just wrong!"<BR/><BR/>Vito Corleone thinks it's immoral to neglect your family.<BR/><BR/>But C.S. Lewis' further point was that no matter what someone's standards of right and wrong are, they nevertheless break them, usually on a regular basis. They can't even keep their own standards, let alone God's.<BR/><BR/>And that's why each person inherantly knows his need for a Savior.<BR/><BR/>4. We Calvinists would say that this need for a Savior will only be acted on in faith upon regeneration, but what causes that<BR/>regeneration?<BR/><BR/>The answer is the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is "the power of God for salvation to those who believe", not only for the Jew (who presumably knows Genesis through Malachi), but for the Greek, who like Sargeant Schultz, knows *nothing*.<BR/><BR/>And this Gospel is capsulized by Paul as "Christ and Him crucified", not "the patient exhaustive survey of redemptive history".<BR/><BR/>5. Having made that Scriptural point, let me add my own observations (since that's what Wells was really doing in his comments on this amoral age). Here's what I've observed many times:<BR/><BR/>I've seen an immoral/amoral person who doesn't believe in Creation, doesn't believe in objective truth, doesn't believe there is any universal right and wrong, and doesn't even believe there is a God...completely drop those errant long-held beliefs in an *instant*(!) upon a miraculous response to the simple Gospel of Christ and Him crucified.<BR/><BR/>5. Or to put it concisely, even the PoMo knows he needs a Savior from his sins, and if he's an elect one, the Gospel and nothing but the Gospel, will open his heart. <BR/><BR/>6. Having said all that stuff that makes it look like I'm dissenting, I would add that to preach "Christ and Him crucified" includes both the "Person" and "Work" of Christ. <BR/><BR/>So I agree with you and Wells that some "prepping" is needed, but it's prepping that always was a part of the Gospel, not something altogether special for the Post-Modern, just because he *pretends* to have no sense of right and wrong. And when that Gospel is preached, "Bam!", the ancient miracle of being born again takes place, and he who was blind, sees.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>TerryTerry Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00888533194435826837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46859297851073698382007-08-15T04:30:00.000-07:002007-08-15T04:30:00.000-07:00Thank you, I understand your response to Wells bet...Thank you, I understand your response to Wells better.<BR/><BR/>But I look up "guilt" in MW, and the first definition is: "the fact of having committed a breach of conduct esp. violating law and involving a penalty broadly : guilty conduct"...<BR/><BR/>...and the first definition of "shame" is "a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety."<BR/><BR/>So I'm wondering whether your definition is specialized in some way? My impression is that Wells' use is the general one.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-7296953672318873332007-08-15T04:25:00.000-07:002007-08-15T04:25:00.000-07:00In response to djp, who said: "Wells' point is cor...In response to djp, who said: "Wells' point is correct, as I understood it. "Guilt" focuses on an objective standard that I have violated. "Shame" focuses on my feelings, which may or may not relate to the violation of an objective standard. The remedy for guilt is atonement. The remedy for shame is therapy."<BR/><BR/>I understand what you're saying, but you have your terms backwards. It's important to get our terms right when speaking of things like shame and guilt. If your definitions are the ones that Wells was using, then while his point would be right he got his terms backwards. It in in fact guilt that is about internalized feelings, and shame that is about objective standards regardless of how one feels about them.<BR/><BR/>So yes, if his point is that we need to submit to the external standards of rightness found in the Bible in spite of how we feel about it, I agree wholeheartedly. I just wish he hadn't mixed up his terms.Little Shepherdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683767544763967383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-56034963712234939942007-08-14T22:24:00.000-07:002007-08-14T22:24:00.000-07:00Brad Leber: Thank you very much for that.Dave: Wel...Brad Leber: Thank you very much for that.<BR/><BR/>Dave: Welcome aboard, by the way!<BR/><BR/>Dan: Thank you again for this, though it might be tomorrow or Thursday evening before I have a chance to listen to your sermon. (No mobile devices for listening to mp3s or CDs away from the home computer.) I will listen at the first available opportunity, though.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67020609726502928282007-08-14T21:35:00.000-07:002007-08-14T21:35:00.000-07:00Brad leber : I comletely agree with you. I always ...Brad leber : I comletely agree with you. I always felt the 5 step process of leading someone to Christ using only NT verses somewhat deficient and I think your way seems to be q really good idea. thanks.<BR/>dave<BR/><BR/><BR/>dave1314.wordpres.comDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10123342591083738691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-77408127353026609132007-08-14T19:16:00.000-07:002007-08-14T19:16:00.000-07:00Presenting the gospel from Genesis 1-3 is a simple...Presenting the gospel from Genesis 1-3 is a simple and complete presentation of God's Power and Holiness, His Love, Mercy,Justice and Provision as well as man's sinfulness and responsibility, then just a short jump to Genesis 22 and you can describe the Substitute to come. Only after a survey such as this is the message of John 3:16 relevant!Leberwursthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00009160566385299355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82682294400105392392007-08-14T16:37:00.000-07:002007-08-14T16:37:00.000-07:00I do agree with this post.The gospel just does not...I do agree with this post.<BR/>The gospel just does not make sense without the preaching of the law...<BR/><BR/>Someone said that their should be a moratorium on preaching the "cross" of John 3:16 for a year and when people sufficiently understand and tremble at their sin, then, and only then, should we tell them about the price that was paid in their place"...<BR/><BR/>I agree. From speaking to hundreds of people about sin, righteousness and judgment, I can tell you that NOBODY thinks that they are a bad person...BUT EVERYONE KNOWS John 3:16....<BR/>I've seen gang members on videos who admit to horiffic crimes say they think that they are saved because they know "John 3:16.rpavichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04457903050314668815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-71431318548798995632007-08-14T14:16:00.000-07:002007-08-14T14:16:00.000-07:00Dan: ...Or any possibility of posting the outline,...Dan: ...Or any possibility of posting the outline, either here or at your own blog?Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78733579546059246032007-08-14T14:15:00.000-07:002007-08-14T14:15:00.000-07:00Dan,That was awesome. I like that Burger King bit...Dan,<BR/><BR/>That was awesome. I like that Burger King bit about the world reconstructing it their way.philnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04393311811604119321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23923675525041153762007-08-14T13:18:00.000-07:002007-08-14T13:18:00.000-07:00Copyc... I mean, "sure."(c;Copyc... I mean, "sure."<BR/><BR/>(c;DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74545752013669205762007-08-14T13:17:00.000-07:002007-08-14T13:17:00.000-07:00Could I ditto philness and ask you to email your o...Could I ditto philness and ask you to email your outline to me as well please Dan<BR/><BR/>dave1314@gmail.com<BR/><BR/>Thanks so much - am really appreciating your sermon<BR/><BR/>dave<BR/><BR/>dave1314.wordpress.comDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10123342591083738691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-25260376997007190262007-08-14T13:12:00.000-07:002007-08-14T13:12:00.000-07:00Sure; after I get home.Sure; after I get home.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45004460569340417802007-08-14T13:07:00.000-07:002007-08-14T13:07:00.000-07:00Dan,I'm listening to your sermon right now. Could...Dan,<BR/><BR/>I'm listening to your sermon right now. Could you please email that outline to philbradshaw77@yahoo.com<BR/>Thanks.philnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04393311811604119321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21556688579953127672007-08-14T12:41:00.000-07:002007-08-14T12:41:00.000-07:00Hi DanI am brand-new at posting here but I have be...Hi Dan<BR/><BR/>I am brand-new at posting here but I have been following Pyro for a long time now. I'm a doctor way down here in South Africa, and I can relate to all your guys' blogs. We are blessed in our church to have as our senior pastor a graduate of Masters Seminary, so we get very solid Biblical teaching every Sunday. <BR/><BR/>I had an interesting corollary to the whole discussion and that is that some of us grew up in a Christian environment to such and extent that we take for granted what we have been saved from. Even as believers, we still need to remind ourselves of the awesome work that God wrought for us on the cross through his Son.<BR/><BR/>Just a few thoughts to introduce myself.<BR/>Dave<BR/><BR/>dave1314.wordpress.comDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10123342591083738691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87421628439228820192007-08-14T12:18:00.000-07:002007-08-14T12:18:00.000-07:00Wells is very good about making us think.I believe...Wells is very good about making us think.<BR/><BR/>I believe Francis Schaeffer spoke about this same "pre-evangelism."<BR/><BR/>Churches need to be better at explaining who God is and what Jesus is saving us from before they make the request to "ask Jesus into your heart." In the Lutheran church of my childhood, every Sunday we had an Old Testament lesson, a Gospel lesson, and a reading from the Epistles. It didn't take the congregation long to have a context in which to place the death of Jesus, and to learn what Jesus saves us from. Also, our song liturgy came from every area of the Bible, so we got the context in our singing, too. Another point is, the entire worship service portrayed the holiness of God so that we knew there was a standard that, without the gift of Jesus, we were unable to attain. Now, in many of our evangelical churches, we do not get the context of the entire Bible, only the New Testament; we do not learn the context of salvation history in our songs, only shallow choruses; and we do not at all see the holiness of God portrayed, only chummy informality. <BR/><BR/>Thank you to men like Wells who make us think and don't let us just pat our evangelical selves on the backs.<BR/><BR/>--BookloverBookloverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08923087945554264867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28670510273504107612007-08-14T11:50:00.000-07:002007-08-14T11:50:00.000-07:00Dan: Thank you. I will eagerly listen to your ser...Dan: Thank you. I will eagerly listen to your sermon at the first available opportunity.<BR/><BR/>Frank, is this post what you were alluding to in your comment yesterday, that I should stay tuned?<BR/><BR/>Preaching the Cross is no mere abstract quandary for me. My mission field right now consists first and foremost of my own dear, sweet beloved. And when she comes to Christ, I want it to be according to the Substitutionary Atonement and the Doctrines of Grace, and before any of the myriad Pelagian influences out there win her to a false gospel first.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-37206822167734259132007-08-14T11:49:00.000-07:002007-08-14T11:49:00.000-07:00You'd have to explain yourself further.Wells' poin...You'd have to explain yourself further.<BR/><BR/>Wells' point is correct, as I understood it. "Guilt" focuses on an objective standard that I have violated. "Shame" focuses on my feelings, which may or may not relate to the violation of an objective standard. The remedy for guilt is atonement. The remedy for shame is therapy.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-25345087634388890472007-08-14T11:34:00.000-07:002007-08-14T11:34:00.000-07:00I love the first 3. They're spot on. But the last ...I love the first 3. They're spot on. But the last one about going from guilt to shame making the cross morally incomprehensible is dead wrong. Modern notions of guilt would be completely alien to the culture that Jesus preached to. There's a reason that they're called "honor-<B>shame</B> societies" in anthropological circles.<BR/><BR/>Now understanding honor-shame cultures certainly isn't necessary to salvation -- only faith is. But rather than making the message of the cross incomprehensible, or taking it out of the realm of morality, understanding such societies gives us a much richer understanding of morality, faithfulness, honor, the offensiveness of Christ's messages, and a whole lot more.<BR/><BR/>Of course, as I already stated, I completely agree with the other 3 points he made. That's some good stuff to keep in mind.Little Shepherdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683767544763967383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21021284309814648932007-08-14T10:35:00.000-07:002007-08-14T10:35:00.000-07:00I'll bet you were the sort of student who was alwa...I'll bet you were the sort of student who was always throwing off the curve.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36860710465060249212007-08-14T10:01:00.000-07:002007-08-14T10:01:00.000-07:00everyone has to listen to my sermon and pass a lit...<I>everyone has to listen to my sermon and pass a little quiz.</I><BR/><BR/>I already listened to the sermon. It was last week while I had a tooth pulled. And I can recommend the sermon as the most pleasant part of that morning.<BR/><BR/>I love it when I get my homework done ahead of time. Can I take the quiz now?Rebecca Starkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04648669478887197766noreply@blogger.com