tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post544736027505160316..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Sweeping up after the Poythress articlesPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger120125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24155850605445546002010-08-09T04:33:21.317-07:002010-08-09T04:33:21.317-07:00Thanks, dan - but you know I'd be told that it...Thanks, dan - but you know I'd be told that it was merely pinin' for the Fjords.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39432512560411397712010-08-08T19:48:40.746-07:002010-08-08T19:48:40.746-07:00dan,
i think it's time you capped every empha...dan,<br /><br />i think it's time you capped every emphatic rebuttal of yours with, "This is an ex-parrot!"<br /><br />great post brother.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-49662770491462775542010-08-08T17:26:21.744-07:002010-08-08T17:26:21.744-07:00Dan - All I can say to this is: AMEN!Dan - All I can say to this is: AMEN!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-38786552884420795752010-08-08T13:01:07.448-07:002010-08-08T13:01:07.448-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86939977899813691082010-08-08T12:57:21.636-07:002010-08-08T12:57:21.636-07:00It was off-topic, and I am the judge. It doesn'...It was off-topic, and I am the judge. It doesn't matter how superior you think you are to all the little folks here, man of countless avatars, it's still not your blog, and it still has rules, and you're still under them.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2207830919762003672010-08-08T12:47:51.635-07:002010-08-08T12:47:51.635-07:00Dan,
Why did you delete my comment? It was on poi...Dan,<br /><br />Why did you delete my comment? It was on point/topic, it offered reasons why I think your logic is unsound, and it did this all within the boundaries of Christian civility. In other words, I didn't violate any of your parameters relative to your commenting policy here at the Pyros.<br /><br />Whether or not you like me, or my convictions, should be beside the point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-64452920441961419272010-08-08T11:22:58.751-07:002010-08-08T11:22:58.751-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41458481692369184642010-08-07T20:50:12.692-07:002010-08-07T20:50:12.692-07:00Thanks for this very useful post. I'm going t...Thanks for this very useful post. I'm going to try and memorize sections of it.Cathy M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08107932375538192094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41868970370263371342010-08-07T20:40:37.135-07:002010-08-07T20:40:37.135-07:00"Whether or not he did, God [MAY HAVE] reveal...<em>"Whether or not he did, God [MAY HAVE] revealed to him on a number of occasions the thoughts of men, including specific details that he had no natural way of knowing. So <b>if</b> God providentially directed his thinking in such a way that he felt "moved by the spirit" to give "striking" descriptions of people and events "without having the slightest knowledge of the person, or any idea that what I said was right,"... "</em><br /><br />Yes, even <em>if</em> any of that is true, it wasn't similar to true Biblical prophecy (nor even the modern Charismatic "prophecy", so why are you trying to force it to be a parallel to such things when it clearly isn't?<br />And why refuse to recognize that there's a vast difference between YHWH making an eternal revelation of the ultimate sense and the Holy Spirit revealing something temporal<br />to a person?<br /><br />The latter isn't binding, actual prophecy, nor true eternal revelation from God which would be something to put in written form tacked on as book #67, and I SERIOUSLY DOUBT that even Spurgeon himself would argue for that.<br /><br />One wonders why Charismatics are so intent on trying to make mountains out of molehills and in doing so forget to stand up and look around and notice the forest or the trees.Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17084189036334133951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-14366510866029899572010-08-07T17:09:18.572-07:002010-08-07T17:09:18.572-07:00Such fascination with stories.
Nothing Spurgeon s...Such fascination with stories.<br /><br />Nothing Spurgeon said varies from what I'm saying. I think Phil has clarified this before. In retrospect, he sees that God directed his preaching. And so? The connection with claiming errant prophecy today, or calling non-gifts by Biblical names? Did you actually read the posts? <br /><br />And yes, I'm a (hel-lo?) Biblical Christian, not a Spurgeon Catholic. If I can see that Spurgeon varies from Scripture, I vary from Spurgeon. I can see how that would shock someone... who had never read a word I've written.<br /><br />And you, Carlo, did you actually read the posts? Your comment doesn't make any sense to me.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33089741965860245302010-08-07T16:25:10.255-07:002010-08-07T16:25:10.255-07:00"How can Muslims repent without the preaching...<i>"How can Muslims repent without the preaching of the Word? How can a Muslim become a Christian after seeing an old man in his/her dream without knowing anything about Christ’s substitutionary atonement?" </i><br /><br />Bingo! That is the money quote. If the Lord has ordained that the gospel be spread by the preaching of His Word, how can anyone be saved apart from His Word?<br /><br />Indeed, how can one be saved from his sins without knowing that Christ paid the penalty for those sins?wordsmithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13694767852556204886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74714653685932116992010-08-07T13:25:47.123-07:002010-08-07T13:25:47.123-07:00Dan -- good post. Heartily agree. Late to the ga...Dan -- good post. Heartily agree. Late to the game as usual, 108 comments to wade through.<br /><br />Early on, Matt says: <i>"There is a current movement of the Holy Spirit in the Middle East that has been confirmed from multiple sources and denominations. Islamic people are being drawn from Islam to Christianity though visions and dreams. These new converts continue to receive revelation from visions and dreams that are strengthening the church in the absence of Bibles."</i><br /><br />This always seemed to me like a tale that had grown (and mutated) in the telling. See the comments of Turkish pastor Fikret Bocek's <a href="http://heidelblog.wordpress.com/2010/07/06/office-hours-church-smyrna-story-fikret-bocek/" rel="nofollow">here</a>.<br /><br />I quote: "Whenever I am in the US people in different churches tell me that thousands of Muslims are converting through dreams and visions. Some missionaries here are exaggerating the situation when they tell their tales in their own countries. Some missionaries even encourage each other to look look for those stories in Turkish villages where dreams are shared in public gatherings with some folk tales…etc. I have even seen some missionaries asking Muslim converts whether they remember seeing an old man in their dreams! And encouraging a form of deception.<i>I don’t see people converting through dreams or visions here in Turkey.</i> I have heard some people dreaming about an old man with white beard.<br /><br />"Old man with white beard is common among the Muslim Arab, Iranians and Shamanistic Turkish cultures. When you encourage people to talk about their dreams they will tell you stories. But Christians should abandon this practice.<br />How can Muslims repent without the preaching of the Word? How can a Muslim become a Christian after seeing an old man in his/her dream without knowing anything about Christ’s substitutionary atonement?"lee n. fieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01652025469454858807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63687876070005959202010-08-07T13:22:33.335-07:002010-08-07T13:22:33.335-07:00"God can providentially direct our thinking w..."God can providentially direct our thinking wherever He wishes (Proverbs 21:1). Spurgeon, I think, claimed no more."<br /><br />Whether or not he did, God revealed to him on a number of occasions the thoughts of men, including specific details that he had no natural way of knowing. So if God providentially directed his thinking in such a way that he felt "moved by the spirit" to give "striking" descriptions of people and events "without having the slightest knowledge of the person, or any idea that what I said was right," and you still refuse to say that that is in any way revelatory, then fine by me. Distinction w/out a difference. <br /><br />If it IS only providence, would you consider it ordinary or extra-ordinary providence? If the latter, then aren't you, by definition, calling Spurgeon's "prophetic" insights miraculous? If Spurgeon walked up to me and told me the secrets of my heart (we're talking specifics here) w/out anyway of humanly knowing them, and he was dead on, I'd first try not to faint, and then I'd probably echo the woman at the well's response.Garrett Leaguehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07418221622445775232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2168093028018395022010-08-07T12:00:22.779-07:002010-08-07T12:00:22.779-07:00Dan,
Thanks for this series.
Pastorally, few thi...Dan,<br /><br />Thanks for this series.<br /><br />Pastorally, few things are more devastating than this. I am not sure if continuationists see/understand that component. It's all ivory tower until a 20-something girl is called by God to marry a man she just met a week or two before. What happens when the idealistic young man suddenly is called by God to another woman? Who can argue?<br /><br />There have been many nights of tear-filled prayer in my house over such foolishness.Matt Kleinhanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15221962521623289976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53131228270547306542010-08-07T10:28:55.940-07:002010-08-07T10:28:55.940-07:00Wow!! I'm blown away that Spurgeon, whom you a...Wow!! I'm blown away that Spurgeon, whom you all hold in such high esteem, may be guilty of having a "hunch" or two himself! I would love to see a post about how Spurgeon was wrong in this area.<br /><br />I seriously doubt you would ever do that!<br /><br />You guys are awesome, by the way!Carlo Provenciohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05169941376497162845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72130814479792806752010-08-07T08:08:55.531-07:002010-08-07T08:08:55.531-07:00I think a more refined epistemology is needed. God...I think a more refined epistemology is needed. God didn't tell me this, of course, so I may be wrong.Jim Pembertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446388434272680014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12757682754255322032010-08-07T08:07:09.906-07:002010-08-07T08:07:09.906-07:00Doggone it, Jacob, you're right. I missed a be...Doggone it, Jacob, you're right. I missed a bet.<br /><br />Oh well, I may still use it. It's not like everyone (A) reads and (B) memorizes everything.<br /><br />/c:DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36120233051601797922010-08-07T08:05:42.639-07:002010-08-07T08:05:42.639-07:00Question: "If they aren't spiritual gifts...Question: <em>"If they aren't spiritual gifts,<br />what are they?<br /><br />There is no Scriptural authority for calling these activities "spiritual gifts," in the 1 Corinthians 12 sense. Anyone with a robust Biblical grasp of the sufficiency of Scripture should find that fact sobering, even pivotal.<br /><br />But if you can't call these hunches, strong impressions, vivid dreams and all "spiritual gifts," then what do you call them?<br /><br />I have a bold proposal: what if we call them hunches, strong impressions, vivid dreams?"</em><br /><br />That could be a NEXT! series entry right there. :)<br /><br /><br />Oh and Rob Bailey: That's precisely the point - it's simply one person's feeling/opinion versus another's. There is no trumping or authority in any of those things.Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17084189036334133951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-91037171338878283952010-08-07T07:09:57.150-07:002010-08-07T07:09:57.150-07:00What if my strong hunch contradicts your vivid dre...What if my strong hunch contradicts your vivid dream? Or, my vivid dream is contrary to your strong impression? Are these terms even too weasely?Rob Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10893938431904825170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-38699655109521672192010-08-07T06:51:17.401-07:002010-08-07T06:51:17.401-07:00Illumination is opening our hearts/minds to unders...<i> Illumination is opening our hearts/minds to understand inscripturated revelation. It is not the impartation of additional revelation. It is, if you will, a bright light aimed at a painting.</i><br /><br />Hooowheeee, yes, and what a miracle it is, to have been dead and then to see the Word come to life and show us who we are and who God is, as it says, it really is living and active and discerns the heart, dividing bone and marrow. When that light comes on - - wow. His name is the Word of God and on His thigh is a name written: King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And He gives us His word, which bears the image of Himself. <i>Amazing</i> grace.Barbarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604068110452745043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-6137438957946224222010-08-07T06:21:02.788-07:002010-08-07T06:21:02.788-07:00Yes, well put. Shining light on a painting, but no...Yes, well put. Shining light on a painting, but not a new painting. And God providentially directing thoughts...I would think most of the time this would be the granting of wisdom or insight (James 1:5)James Scott Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07641370124346172648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80006881075871016462010-08-07T06:07:42.691-07:002010-08-07T06:07:42.691-07:00God can providentially direct our thinking whereve...God can providentially direct our thinking wherever He wishes (Proverbs 21:1). Spurgeon, I think, claimed no more. I don't recall him ever claiming to receive verbal revelation to impart, or any such thing. If he did, I'd just say he was wrong. He's Spurgeon, all right, which is saying a lot; but he's not God.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88473674469511399982010-08-07T06:04:55.954-07:002010-08-07T06:04:55.954-07:00Johnny, I don't have an answer about Calvin si...Johnny, I don't have an answer about Calvin since I'm not a Calvin student <i>per se</i>.<br /><br />I'll tell you something, if you promise not to tell anyone. Much is made of the illumination of the Spirit. I have not seen that many passages that directly affirm such a thing; the ones pressed into service actually tend to refer either to inerrant inspiration of the apostles, or regeneration.<br /><br />But a real-live illumination passage would be 2 Timothy 2:7, where it is ascribed to the Lord Jesus; or Psalm 119 (various), where it is simply ascribed to Yahweh. Illumination is opening our hearts/minds to understand inscripturated revelation. It is not the impartation of additional revelation. It is, if you will, a bright light aimed at a painting. It is not the creation of a new painting.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73916574344353736092010-08-07T03:13:37.121-07:002010-08-07T03:13:37.121-07:00"During a worship service, they allow someone..."During a worship service, they allow someone who has a prophecy to bring it to an elder, and they discern whether or not it is legit."<br /><br />Who discerns the discerners?chrisstileshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04157155206553241101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12276731241012243592010-08-06T22:07:11.461-07:002010-08-06T22:07:11.461-07:00I'd say something meaningful (like, "Wayn...I'd say something meaningful (like, "Wayne H. Grudem! Not everything the Spirit reveals is canonical!") but I'd probably just be referred to a long list of previous posts. And why shouldn't I? You probably don't want to spin your wheels for the nteenth time. I'll just assume I'm wrong and be done with it. Just one quick question: how did Spurgeon know this stuff? In his own words:<br /><br />"I could tell as many as a dozen similar cases in which I pointed at somebody in the hall without having the slightest knowledge of the person, or any idea that what I said was right, except that I believed I was moved by the Spirit to say it; and so striking has been my description, that the persons have gone away, and said to their friends, ‘Come, see a man that told me all things that ever I did; beyond a doubt, he must have been sent of God to my soul, or else he could not have described me so exactly.’ And not only so, but I have known many instances in which the thoughts of men have been revealed from the pulpit. I have sometimes seen persons nudge their neighbours with their elbow, because they had got a smart hit, and they have been heard to say, when they were going out, ‘The preacher told us just what we said to one another when we went in at the door’"<br /><br />Seems like God revealed specific stuff to him about specific people for specific reasons. Does that compromise the sufficiency of the bible? If you don't want to call it prophecy or word of whatever or direct revelation, fine, but seems like a distinction w/out a difference.Garrett Leaguehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07418221622445775232noreply@blogger.com