tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post5570267922996191322..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Doxology of the Scientific MethodPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger143125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-65570839954020099102010-08-19T06:38:08.635-07:002010-08-19T06:38:08.635-07:00I think an off-line conversation with garrett woul...I think an off-line conversation with garrett would be way more profitable for him and for whoever was talking with him.<br /><br />Comments are closed.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-65859936470571797272010-08-19T06:36:55.428-07:002010-08-19T06:36:55.428-07:00It's Frank's thread, but I'll offer my...It's Frank's thread, but I'll offer my opinion, Steve:<br /><br />If one wants to evade <i>any</i> Biblical doctrine, he can <i>always</i> find <i>some</i> scholar who will weigh in to oppose it. That's the way this conversation has gone: Biblical point, copy-and-paste from some evader; rinse, repeat.<br /><br />I don't think it's been profitable, and for my part (again, leaving room for Frank to way in) I'm pretty weary of seeing that particular endless do-loop.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2749629105488895872010-08-19T06:31:12.915-07:002010-08-19T06:31:12.915-07:00Hi Garrett,
I think others have weighed in with an...Hi Garrett,<br />I think others have weighed in with answers to some of your comments to my post since I signed off yesterday. But today is a new day. Would you like to continue in an honest search for answers (I have much more to say) or should I take Dan's advice that you have had these questions answered again and again and not waste my breath? I'm willing to continue if you are brother.Steve Drakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17435371814330595643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28948897487156441732010-08-19T06:29:43.434-07:002010-08-19T06:29:43.434-07:00Garrett --
Given where this has ended up, e-mail ...Garrett --<br /><br />Given where this has ended up, e-mail me if you want to discuss off-line. It's unexpected that you stopped where you did, and I credit you for it.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-38554141260264786272010-08-19T02:36:19.986-07:002010-08-19T02:36:19.986-07:00Garrett,
Take comfort in the fact that you were ...Garrett, <br /><br />Take comfort in the fact that you were born of the Logos and not of the Bio nor on the Bayou. Our believing is conditioned at its source by our belonging. You are hidden in Christ and as Paul said, "Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you" (2 Cor.13:5) We believe God because he rebirth us. We believe a literate Genesis interpretation because it simply reads that way and God declared it and who are we to not presuppose it.philnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04393311811604119321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87179401651412595502010-08-19T01:02:20.247-07:002010-08-19T01:02:20.247-07:00Garrett,
I’ve spoken to you before. If I remember...Garrett,<br /><br />I’ve spoken to you before. If I remember correctly you said I sounded like your Dad, which I took as a compliment. I also seem to remember that you seemed to be a genuine seeker at the time. However, now I wonder if maybe you have set yourself up seeking something that cannot be found.<br /><br />I clicked over to your website from your profile and saw where you wrote this, “I seek, by God's grace, to understand the underlying harmony between general and special revelation.”<br /><br />With all due respect, while I think that that is a fine goal, considering there is no real conflict between the two, a conflict can arise if one is not careful how one decides to understand general revelation. IOW, if you look to science to understand general revelation, with its prerequisite of explaining everything with no reference to the supernatural, how exactly could you ever find the harmony you seek with the bible? It makes me think of the kind of nonsense that goes on in the public schools where we’re going to explain to our kids how the world works but we can’t mention God. How exactly does one go about explaining things without being able to mention the best explanation?<br /><br />I don’t claim to no what is really got you baffled but I do claim to know this. You can’t serve two masters and I think that’s what you’re trying to do… even if you don’t mean to.<br /><br />I’ll be praying for you as well. God bless.Ron (aka RealityCheck)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03274921909241630662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-64532593382293595322010-08-18T23:51:59.838-07:002010-08-18T23:51:59.838-07:00As I'm following the conversation to this poin...As I'm following the conversation to this point, I'm reminded of the following (brilliant) post: <a href="http://bibchr.blogspot.com/2009/02/science-bible-and-presuppositions.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24871344705185213632010-08-18T23:16:12.001-07:002010-08-18T23:16:12.001-07:00Sir Aaron,
Good points but it’s even worse than t...Sir Aaron,<br /><br />Good points but it’s even worse than that. Those dating methods themselves have “age” built right into them because no other explanation can even be considered. It’s like using a ruler to measure the length of something that has feet marks where inches ought to be. How could that ever be reconciled with something that never even hints at something being anything but inches long?Ron (aka RealityCheck)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03274921909241630662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80506330367581646522010-08-18T22:07:06.196-07:002010-08-18T22:07:06.196-07:00Garrett:
I'll gladly pray for you as well. M...Garrett:<br /><br />I'll gladly pray for you as well. Many of us have struggled in our walks and it takes courage to admit it here.<br /><br /><br /> <i>And it's a mother reconciling science with YEC</i><br /><br />Indeed. That's because most people go about it backwards. Scientists look at a full grown tree and say "it looks many years old." God says, "Yeah it does...but I created it yesterday." Scientists cut down the tree. Sure enough, the rings indicate it is 100 years old. Dating methods indicate it is 100 years old. But what does God say? At some point you have to wonder if science and creation can, in fact, be reconciled.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26088330899762976682010-08-18T21:26:11.710-07:002010-08-18T21:26:11.710-07:00Dan:
What I do know is I picked the wrong major. ...Dan:<br /><br />What I do know is I picked the wrong major. Big time. My studies have really brought me lots of grief. Sorry If I've wasted your time/derailed the comments/ignored answers. I'll move on. I will. I do know better and I know where y'all stand and I appreciate your responses. Just trying to interact and throw some thoughts out there. <br /><br />As you can probably tell, I'm pretty torn on this issue and I need some peace, so I compensate by trying to get at least some small modicum of affirmation from folks I know disagree w/ me (not working out thus far). I just need to settle this by grounding my trust in something solid, as you suggest.<br /><br />"I think it's because Garrett doesn't want to be known to know what he knows."<br /><br />Whew, that hit me like a ton of bricks (kind of ticked me off at 1st). I know it's a mother trying to reconcile the bible w/ evolution. I know it. And it's a mother reconciling science with YEC. I really need to stand back and count the cost. Thanks for that gut punch. I perceive that you are a prophet.<br /><br />Frank:<br /><br />On Calvin, my point was to highlight his thoughts on creation through 2nd causes. <br /><br />Phil has already responded to me, I know where he stands, don't want to put any words in his mouth.<br /><br />Thanks for the thoughts, sorry to bug and get carried away (ask Fred, I've badgered him off and on on this topic for a few months now). Thanks for putting up. If you could forgive my comment flood and say a 2 sec. prayer for me, I'd appreciate it.Garrett Leaguehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07418221622445775232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46176327579612514762010-08-18T20:35:02.855-07:002010-08-18T20:35:02.855-07:00Garret muttered:
You know, Phil Johnson, in a ser...Garret muttered:<br /><br /><b>You know, Phil Johnson, in a sermon he gave on the Charismatic movement, said that they often claim "If God's not doing miracles, he's absent." Nonsense, says Phil, if God answers prayer through providence HE IS NO LESS RESPONSIBLE THAN IF HE ANSWERED IT VIA MIRACLE. </b><br /><br />The problem, of course, is the distinct difference between the charismatic claims of "miracles" and the explicit authority of Scripture which says, "God did this," or "God did that".<br /><br />Since this is Phil's blog, you go ahead and ask him if he believes what you are stuffing in his mouth right now. I'd be interested to see the response.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-64978677905493010442010-08-18T20:32:07.679-07:002010-08-18T20:32:07.679-07:00Garrett --
So what is your point exactly? The Ca...Garrett --<br /><br />So what is your point exactly? The Calvin rabbit trail is you personal excursus here. Please tell us what exactly you mean by it.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63663968967553270382010-08-18T20:14:19.189-07:002010-08-18T20:14:19.189-07:00For any newbies who are wondering who Garrett is, ...For any newbies who are wondering who <b>Garrett</b> is, the kid asks questions like...<br /><br /><i>Since tons of evidence supports that, and the bible doesn't demand a purely miraculous explanation of origins, why not go there? Lot's of solid believing OT scholars are cool w/ that, at least w/ regard to earth's origins.</i><br /><br />Garrett has had this question answered for him again, and again, and again.<br /><br />Garrett is a modern descendant of the ten Israelite spies. God's word on origins is insufficient. God-hating materialistic degree-granting Darwinists tell Garrett that Science has disproven the Biblical account, he wants them to like him, and he desperately wants to make himself feel better about caving and cozying up to the Amalekites, rather than resting on God's Word.<br /><br />So Garrett fills up thread after thread with all the pro-compromise squish-quotations ("Hey fellas! This guy's a PhD, and <i>he</i> doesn't believe what Genesis says!") he can find. He's jammed up enough in his clipboard to derail any thread, and bog down the author with re-re-re-answering the same tired question for the 60th time, the 61st time, the 62nd time....<br /><br />I don't think it's because Garrett doesn't know better. Certainly not because he hasn't been told better.<br /><br />I think it's because Garrett doesn't want to be known to know what he knows.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8078188590597207172010-08-18T20:01:07.346-07:002010-08-18T20:01:07.346-07:00Oops!
Gravity does not [kick] God out of the sola...Oops!<br /><br />Gravity does not [kick] God out of the solar system."<br /><br />and<br /><br />"He knit you in your [mother's] womb"<br /><br />Knitting a dude in his womb; now THAT would take a miracle, lol.Garrett Leaguehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07418221622445775232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-43438822266992648642010-08-18T19:56:27.148-07:002010-08-18T19:56:27.148-07:00Frank:
"The problem "my view" has ...Frank:<br /><br />"The problem "my view" has is that it requires God to be someone more than a deistic absentee landlord who pops in once (maybe) to die on a cross. The solution to that problem is found in every other page of Scripture in the person of God"<br /><br />That sounds an awful lot like Chris Hitchens (God only "intervened" at the cross). I hate the term "divine intervention." What's to intervene! He made us and without him continually upholding us second to second we wouldn't be here!<br /><br />You know, Phil Johnson, in a sermon he gave on the Charismatic movement, said that they often claim "If God's not doing miracles, he's absent." Nonsense, says Phil, if God answers prayer through providence HE IS NO LESS RESPONSIBLE THAN IF HE ANSWERED IT VIA MIRACLE. <br /><br />This is no absentee, deistic God, the God of William Paley or the ID proponents. If he ordains and sustains it, he does it, period. Gravity does not book God out of the solar system. Meteorologists don't explain weather without the one who sends rain and thunder. If God feeds the birds and clothes the grass the same way he made us, is he absent? He knit you in your womb, yet science can explain how he did that. In doing so, it doesn't make him any less involved: it just shows how glorious his knitting processes is.<br /><br />A.H. Strong said this:<br /><br />"Evolution, then, does not exclude Christianity. If we were deists, believing in a distant God and a mechanical universe, evolution and Christianity would be irreconcilable. But since we believe in a dynamical universe, of which the personal and living God is the inner source of energy, evolution is but the basis, foundation, and background of Christianity, the silent and regular working of him who, in the fullness of time, utters his voice in Christ and the cross."Garrett Leaguehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07418221622445775232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16659154419232938032010-08-18T19:49:19.515-07:002010-08-18T19:49:19.515-07:00It's only anthropomorphic because you read hum...It's only anthropomorphic because you read human traits into the language. You read "breathe", which by the way, is the English translation not the original Hebrew, and think of human breathing. Of course, the English definition of breathing actually has several different applications, but you've chosen the one that makes the most sense to you.<br /><br />You still haven't demonstrated that God cannot literally puff the "breath of life" into a human being.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12411103688639496832010-08-18T19:44:09.081-07:002010-08-18T19:44:09.081-07:00Steve cont.
"God does not have to have lungs...Steve cont.<br /><br />"God does not have to have lungs to breathe life into His creation."<br /><br />That's not the point. The point is, the language is clearly anthropomorphic and hence non-literal.<br /><br />"Are you saying you need a naturalistic explanation for everything that happens in life?"<br /><br />Not even close. I'm not a materialist, I just think God normally works through ordinary providence.<br /><br />"Or is that where your quibble is, you've read them, and just don't believe them?"<br /><br />Yes, in fact I'm probably more familiar with the common creationist arguments against the BB/Evo/OE than the theories themselves, since I used to argue against them. Outside the YEC apologetic bubble, nothing really supports those arguments. You have to presuppose YEC as a matter of conviction to be persuaded, which is fine by me, just don't say it's binding on all your fellow brothers and sisters if they find it intellectually dishonest to accept it.<br /><br />Frank:<br /><br />Calvin was ABSOLUTELY a 6 day, young-earther...and a geocentrist.<br /><br />"[Those who assert that] the earth moves and turns ... [are motivated by] a spirit of bitterness, contradiction, and faultfinding; [possessed by the devil, they aimed] to pervert the order of nature."<br /><br />Next!<br /><br />(P.S., I have been tremendously helped by Calvin's insights into astronomy and the creation accounts: http://helives.blogspot.com/2008/05/calvin-on-science.html Plus, I didn't quote Calvin to say he wasn't a 6-day, 24hr guy, since I am too! Oh, and Alister McGrath is a genius! And he apparently wrote a nice bio on Calvin to boot.)Garrett Leaguehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07418221622445775232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12694236635248559702010-08-18T19:38:46.900-07:002010-08-18T19:38:46.900-07:00You know: I'm not going to defend Answers in G...You know: I'm not going to defend Answers in Genesis.<br /><br />However, I am going to say this: <br /><br />The problem "my view" has is that it requires God to be someone more than a deistic absentee landlord who pops in once (maybe) to die on a cross. The solution to that problem is found in every other page of Scripture in the person of God.<br /><br />The problem the other side has is all the other pages of Scripture, pointing to a God who is more than an deistic absentee landlord.<br /><br />I think I'm OK.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-68709834197285007112010-08-18T19:31:37.746-07:002010-08-18T19:31:37.746-07:00Steve Drake:
"From your classes in biology.....Steve Drake:<br /><br />"From your classes in biology...first organic living cell from non-organic chemicals?"<br /><br />I'll let evolutionary biologist and uber-atheist Jerry Coyne answer that:<br /><br />"That's a problem which I think we have to be worried about because I don't think we're ever going to solve it. We can replicate the origin of life in the lab and I think we'll do that within the next 20 years, but that doesn't tell us that that's the way it happened. We can get closer to theories about how it originiated, but since it was a one-time even, 3.5 billion years ago, all we can do is make inferences about how it happened, and like all scientists there are just some questions that I think we have to accept that we're never going to know the answer to, but there is no doubt that it only happened once." <br /><br />Now that is honest! And it was given at a Q&A after a lecture on evolution at the Atheist Alliance International 2009 conference. <br /><br />"So in your view, was this a miracle?"<br /><br />I'm open to that possibility, so long as it isn't used to discourage research. God certainly could have done it either way; his hands aren't tied.<br /><br />"Did God weigh in at this point...where God stepped in?"<br /><br />That sounds like ID, which I'm not a fan of. I believe God created through 2nd causes, and that makes him no less responsible. I don't think he had to "intervene" from time to time because if he created nature to result in a certain end, couldn't he sink all the balls in one shot? I think he ordained and sustained the cosmos in such a way that after the initial creation of time/space/matter (yes, that was supernatural!) life would be produced via ordinary providence. No maverick molecules!<br /><br />"Can you not see how this process of death...degrades God's character as stated in Scripture?"<br /><br />Well, unless you believe the earth is young and all animals were once vegetarians (both of which I find fantastically unlikely and lacking in biblical evidence), then it's a problem for us all. Your position has plenty of problems as well.Garrett Leaguehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07418221622445775232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13496728829351825192010-08-18T19:28:35.691-07:002010-08-18T19:28:35.691-07:00Rachel:
Great testimony. I tried to engage my or...Rachel:<br /><br />Great testimony. I tried to engage my oral surgeon in a discussion while he was removing my wisdom teeth. He was telling me how amazing the human mouth is. I was trying to point out that it's proof of God's glory. Unfortunately, I don't think he was able to understand what I was saying.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32557684339482978472010-08-18T19:26:13.104-07:002010-08-18T19:26:13.104-07:00The verse says "Then the LORD God formed man ...The verse says "<i>Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being</i>. <br />(Gen 2:7)<br /><br />Man takes this verse and then reads his experience back into it. Man says, "God couldn't possibly have breathed life into Adam's actual nostrils because only living creatures 'breathe'." Naturally, man proclaims this "fact" based on his extensive experience with the abilities of spiritual beings and God in particular. <br /> <br />Secondarily, man completely forgets how language is used. If I say I crushed my enemies in combat, everyone understands that I'm literally and figuratively describing what happened. Nobody thinks I put my enemies in a vice and literally crushed them. But if the Bible says it, by golly, it's got to be some sort of allegory.<br /><br />On another note: I have a particular beef with scientists who claim to be able to know what would happen after the world was completely flooded." I mean come on....that's a ridiculous proposition.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15285043747501470199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82196168100058790052010-08-18T19:23:30.731-07:002010-08-18T19:23:30.731-07:00This is rather interesting to me because I'm i...This is rather interesting to me because I'm in the health care field, and there's a lot of science involved in my job. I'm currently working towards my nursing degree, and as a result have to take multiple advanced science courses.<br /><br />I absolutely love the science classes I'm taking. Why? Because, to me, they glorify God's creation. Things like how in chemical equations the same amount of atoms in the beginning are at the end just rearranged into different molecules, or how the human body is truly a perfect system and the fact that it degrades and diseases exist shows the curse of this world. Even diseases and bacteria and viruses are complex and incredible.<br /><br />How an atom is made and how molecules form to create matter is incredibly intelligent and organized in such a way that only God could create something so precise. The fact that water sustains life, and its properties are so key to life makes perfect sense when you know the chemical break down. How could anything BUT God know that hydrogen bonds would be the key for plants to survive? These hydrogen bonds allow water to float in a solid state, the only substance known to do this, which allows water organisms to stay insulated under that ice so that they don't die off. That an aqueous solution such as blood would be the perfect environment for a red blood cell to transport a gas? I believe blood is the only liquid known to do this.<br /><br />Did you know that the two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and Helium? Every single element on this earth is a derivative of those two elements. Not all of you may know how elements are broken down into neutrons, protons, and electrons, but to me that's incredibly significant. Hydrogen and Helium are the simplest of all the elements so for all of the other elements to come into existence by gaining more protons, neutrons, and electrons means something huge had to make that happen. Something huge...like God.<br /><br />Even nutrition and the fact that we eat and how food breaks down into proteins, carbohydrates, lipids, which are needed to make key amino acids and nucleic acids and energy. How could that be anything BUT Divine?<br /><br />How everything is lined up just so, and it creates the impossible. The likelihood of all these infinite "chances" to occur and support life as we know it are so tiny that, to me, only God could be the one to make it happen. So, to me, an organization that tries to use science to lessen God's power doesn't make sense. That's like trying to lessen God with God Himself because of the fact that God created everything and knows how everything works, something we only have a glimpse of. The more information we gain the more impressive the knowledge becomes. So, to me, the only answer that makes sense is that God made all of it.Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03824751086238577923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16247132265040529052010-08-18T19:17:25.319-07:002010-08-18T19:17:25.319-07:00Pretty David:
You just won something with that hy...Pretty David:<br /><br />You just won something with that hymn to Reason. I don't know what, but I heard the bells ring.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-31137290330080774812010-08-18T19:15:39.834-07:002010-08-18T19:15:39.834-07:00Also sorry: Garret did cite Warfield and not McGra...Also sorry: Garret did cite Warfield and not McGrath. That doesn't make Calvin any less clear.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39041285637322491232010-08-18T19:12:03.142-07:002010-08-18T19:12:03.142-07:00Sorry: the Calvin link is at ccel.orgSorry: the Calvin link is at <a href="http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom01.txt" rel="nofollow">ccel.org</a>FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.com