tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post5671964912033115997..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: In What Sense Is Depravity Total?Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger264125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-83741066141573391592008-02-13T11:44:00.000-08:002008-02-13T11:44:00.000-08:00I am glad you are opening up the discussion on thi...I am glad you are opening up the discussion on this topic. I prefer the term "<A HREF="http://www.morethancake.org/2007/04/anthropology-who-is-man.html" REL="nofollow">Total Corruption</A>." In modern usage, corruption emphasizes that our nature is what is stained by sin, while "depravity" tends to emphasize our actions.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00772168718321735432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45727624283816031742008-01-31T17:50:00.000-08:002008-01-31T17:50:00.000-08:00If I could put my .02 in, with my limited Greek wh...If I could put my .02 in, with my limited Greek what I see John 5:24 saying is that the ones that are hearing and believing presently are the ones that have passed out of death into life. When I see <I>but has passed out of death into life</I> I naturally ask myself who is this referring too? It seems to be referencing the ones presently hearing and believing. As far as I can tell this verse does not tell us the <B>WHY</B> some are hearing and believing, it just tells us that they ones that are hearing and believing have passed out of death into life. <BR/><BR/>I wonder though if you guys are even aware of what you want your point to be? I’m know Dr. Phil, but it seems that this whole dialogue of yours has been completely unproductive and only fostered animosity between the two of you. I’m all for hearty debate and questioning one another’s views, but should it not be done with a Christian spirit? The idea that this verse or any single verse can bring your differing theological views to rubble seems… silly. While I am content to sit on the sidelines most of the time and just try to learn from wiser men than me, it frustrates me when a thread can be completely hijacked and 2 or more folks go of on their own personal crusade.Magnushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645497952033803558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8388810385624201222008-01-31T14:33:00.000-08:002008-01-31T14:33:00.000-08:00What they fail to take into account is that not on...<I>What they fail to take into account is that not only is making God a liar in the past, but so is the “reason/cause” that they have made God a liar.</I><BR/><BR/>The reason/cause for unbelievers making God out to be a liar is also stated as a present participle, just as "heareth" and "believeth" are in John 5:24. In other words, the structure, "Whoever [present participle], [perfect tense verb]" does not imply that what is spoken of in perfect tense necessarily precedes the entirety of action denoted by the participle (e.g. whoever believes not has made God a liar), but simply that whoever is performing the participle now has done/experienced the perfect tense verb.J.C. Thibodauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12884600822119690931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-6298738781940082712008-01-31T13:32:00.000-08:002008-01-31T13:32:00.000-08:00All this verse says is that the unbelief of the te...All this verse says is that the unbelief of the testimony and the making God a liar happened in the past and it is carried into the present. Just like Jn.5:24, they have crossed over from death to life in the past, while in the present they are experiencing the effect of it by hearing and believing. What they fail to take into account is that not only is making God a liar in the past, but so is the “reason/cause” that they have made God a liar. It is all referencing a past event/action. This does nothing to bolster their view, in fact it only re-enforces the monergistic view. Something tells me that they will not see it and seeing that they must have the last word I will let bid them adieu.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07822172330383243446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62556578048835919792008-01-31T12:46:00.000-08:002008-01-31T12:46:00.000-08:00Ben said: ^^^"Here is how my simple mind understan...Ben said: ^^^"Here is how my simple mind understands the English version that I read.<BR/><BR/>“I have sent my son so that if you believe in him you will have life”<BR/><BR/>“I don’t believe that”<BR/><BR/>“Why?”<BR/><BR/>“Cause I think you are a liar”<BR/><BR/>“What makes you say that I am a liar?”<BR/><BR/>“Cause I not believe what you said about your son”<BR/><BR/>“Why would you not believe what I said about my son?”<BR/><BR/>“Cause you’re a liar”<BR/><BR/>Do you see what I mean? The reason they do not believe the testimony that was given is because they think that God is a liar. Would you believe a liar? I wouldn’t, but that could just be me."^^^<BR/><BR/>***The problem is that you seem to be reading into what is going on in the text. Let me give you the same type of logical outlien you have given and see if you do not agree that it aheres much more closely to the text of 1 John 5:10.<BR/><BR/>“I have sent my son so that if you believe in him you will have life”<BR/><BR/>“I don’t believe that”<BR/><BR/>“Then you have made me a liar"<BR/><BR/>"Why?”<BR/><BR/>“Because you have not believed what I have said about my Son. Not believing me makes me out to be a liar; you are acting as if I am a liar.”<BR/><BR/>Do you see what I mean? The text keeps the focus on what the unbelievers actions: they do not believe what God says about Jesus, they have made God a liar, and the reason they made God a liar is because they do not believe what he said about Jesus. That is what is explicitly said in the text, even in English. But you seem to be reading in a lot more background that what is warranted by the simple logic and flow of the text. And as I said, you seem to be separating the first state of unbelief from the second mention, but they are clearly the same, having reference to not believing God's testimony about Jesus. The "because they have not believed God's testimony" is given as the reason they have made him a liar. But you seem to want to read it in the very opposite fashion from the text as somehow affirming that they did not believe what God said about the Son because they believed him to be a liar. But that is not said at all. It is not that it is an incoherent thought, but that this text is not saying that. It is affirming an equally coherent thought--they made God a liar becasue they did not believe him, that is, they made him out to be a liar by not believing him.Arminianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06255206726241506362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1043315893542340822008-01-31T12:04:00.000-08:002008-01-31T12:04:00.000-08:00Here is how my simple mind understands the English...Here is how my simple mind understands the English version that I read.<BR/><BR/><I>“I have sent my son so that if you believe in him you will have life”</I><BR/><BR/>“I don’t believe that”<BR/><BR/><I>“Why?”</I><BR/><BR/>“Cause I think you are a liar”<BR/><BR/><I>“What makes you say that I am a liar?”</I><BR/><BR/>“Cause I not believe what you said about your son”<BR/><BR/><I>“Why would you not believe what I said about my son?”</I><BR/><BR/>“Cause you’re a liar”<BR/><BR/>Do you see what I mean? The reason they do not believe the testimony that was given is because they think that God is a liar. Would you believe a liar? I wouldn’t, but that could just be me. You are right that I would not want to talk about the Greek, but the reason is cause I don’t know it. What I do know though is that I can get the gist of it by looking at my English Bible or if I am adventurous even looking at different English translations to get a better feel of it.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11081244157646985055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-52478258917155600262008-01-31T10:16:00.000-08:002008-01-31T10:16:00.000-08:00Ben said: "I do not know Greek or anything about t...Ben said: "I do not know Greek or anything about tenses and participles and how they work in Greek, but it seems that this testimony that is being referenced in this verse has already been given. It seems that the ones that are believing are the ones that have this testimony in their heart, now is this referring to the Holy Spirit being in the believer?"<BR/><BR/>***I am not sure how this is relevant to the discussion. But I don't think the text is referring to the Holy Spirit as the testimony, but the testimony that the Holy Spirit gives, as do the water and the blood, and this testimony is that Jesus is the Son of God. But it is intesting that you mention the possibility of the Spirit being in the believer, since the Spirit is unquestionably received by faith (faith precedes regeneration).<BR/><BR/>Ben said: "If we see it that way then it seems that these non-believers have made God to be a liar, not only now but also in the past. The reason given is that they did not believe the testimony of God in the past and they do not believe it now. If I understood Paul correctly, then his point was that they already believed God to be a liar. It goes back to what I said, it is not like this group was believing in God in the past and now do not accept the testimony that He has given about His Son. It seems that they do not believe because they already view God as a liar. It would be like someone trying to tell me something when I already thought of them as a liar, would I believe them? Probably not. It seems that what J.C. is saying is that what is happening in this verse is that they do not believe the testimony right now and in not believing it now that somehow God must be lying now. That does not seem to flow from what I read in English. I am sure that you guys can get into the Greek and do all that mumbo jumbo stuff that you guys do, but it seems simple to me in plain ol English, at least to me:)"<BR/><BR/>***Honestly, it is hard to see how your view is clear. First, let me address the Greek issue. You act as if the Greek does not matter, but I thought that there was a aclaim being made that the Greek demanded taking faith as prior to regeneration (not necessarily by you, but in thr discussion you responded to, and then I responded to you). That is simply not true and can be easily proved by reference to Greek grammatical rules. I have not bothered to do that because I was focuing on your comments. But also, it makes little sense to think that Greek doesn't matter for interpreting a document written in Greek. You may be reading it in translation, but it does not seem reasonable to say that since the English translation suggests this understanding to me, that is what must be IF GREEK GRAMMAR COUNTERS THAT. But it could be that you are saying regardless of whether Greek allows for the unbelief to precede making God a liar in 1 John 5:10 or not, the actual context suggests that it does not.<BR/><BR/>But then that is where it is hard to see that your view accords with the text. It does not matter at all whether the group believed in God in the past or not. In fact, they may well have since they seem to be a group within the church turned to heresy and so left the church. But I don't want to get hung up on that at all, since it does not even matter for the point at hand. The text says they don't beleieve, and that those who don't believe have made God a liar because they have not believed. You seem to be separating present unbeliefe from past belief. But the text does not make any distinction. "Because they have not believed" explains how they have mad God a liar, by not believing him. The text does not speak of them believing God to be a liar, but of them, literally, making God a liar. Now obviously they are not making God lie. So making him a liar means making him out to be, acting as if he is lying. And this is accomplished by not believing him. Not believing him is what makes him out to be a liar. In fact some translations actually translate that they have made God a liar "by not believing". <BR/><BR/>There are points of Greek that arise here. But I will leave them except to say that if you look at your English translation, it does not say, "anyone who does not believe the testimony right now", that is, it does not restrict the unbelief to the present. That reflects the Greek there and its use of what is called a substantive participle. Anyway, take an English example. "Anyone who does not believe what I am saying has insulted me, because he has not believed me". In such a sentence, there is no suggestion that insulting you brought about not believing you. Rather, not believing you is how he insulted you. He insulted you by not believing you. Or how about: "Anyone who does not believe me has treated me as a liar, because he has not believed me." Oh there is much that can be said from Greek on this, but again, I will hold off for now since you seem to want to stay away from it.<BR/><BR/>What you're saying seems hard to follow partly because in the part of 1 John 5:10 we are discussing we have two things, (1) not believing and (2) making God a liar. The argument is whether not believing makes God a liar or making God a liar leads to not believing. And the text iteslf indicates which causes which. It says they have made God a liar because they have not believed his witness about the Son. You seem to want to take "making God a liar" = "believing God is a liar", but the text only talks about believing or not believing God, his testimony. So making God a liar has reference to an act that treats him as a liar, makes him out to be a liar, implies that he is a liar.Arminianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06255206726241506362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24402638742598146402008-01-31T10:09:00.000-08:002008-01-31T10:09:00.000-08:00You did indeed miss the point Ben, as did Paul. Pa...You did indeed miss the point Ben, as did Paul. Paul was arguing that the wording of John 5:24 necessitates that being brought to life precedes faith. 1 John 5:10 employs the same tenses as John 5:24, which by Paul's argument would end up implying that one making God out to be a liar must logically precede disbelieving.<BR/><BR/><I>What J.C. would have us believe is that regeneration is the meritorious act done by having faith.</I><BR/><BR/>Incorrect, regeneration is performed by God after one has faith, testified to by the fact that we are risen with Christ through faith as Colossians 2 states, it is not based on merit.J.C. Thibodauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12884600822119690931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85463217268121107302008-01-30T12:58:00.000-08:002008-01-30T12:58:00.000-08:00Arminian,I do not know Greek or anything about ten...Arminian,<BR/><BR/>I do not know Greek or anything about tenses and participles and how they work in Greek, but it seems that this testimony that is being referenced in this verse has already been given. It seems that the ones that are believing are the ones that have this testimony in their heart, now is this referring to the Holy Spirit being in the believer? <BR/><BR/>If we see it that way then it seems that these non-believers have made God to be a liar, not only now but also in the past. The reason given is that they did not believe the testimony of God in the past and they do not believe it now. If I understood Paul correctly, then his point was that they already believed God to be a liar. It goes back to what I said, it is not like this group was believing in God in the past and now do not accept the testimony that He has given about His Son. It seems that they do not believe because they already view God as a liar. It would be like someone trying to tell me something when I already thought of them as a liar, would I believe them? Probably not. It seems that what J.C. is saying is that what is happening in this verse is that they do not believe the testimony right now and in not believing it now that somehow God must be lying now. That does not seem to flow from what I read in English. I am sure that you guys can get into the Greek and do all that mumbo jumbo stuff that you guys do, but it seems simple to me in plain ol English, at least to me:)Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11081244157646985055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-14675958025526435642008-01-30T12:00:00.000-08:002008-01-30T12:00:00.000-08:00Ben said:"Unless I miss the point it does appear t...Ben said:<BR/><BR/>"Unless I miss the point it does appear that 1 John 5:10 bolsters Paul's case. It seems that these people do not believe because they have made God to be a liar first and that is why they do not believe it now. It is not like these people believed God in the past and now they think that this testimony is a lie so in this case God must be lying, rather it seems that they think that God is a liar and have always thought this and that is why they do not believe him now."<BR/><BR/>I think you do miss the point. It is not believing that makes GHod out to be a liar. This is proven by the fact that we are told in the verse the cause of making God a liar, "because he has not believed". The Greek is clearly on JC's side. Much more could be said actually about how tenses and pareticples relate in Greek, supporting JC's case much more. But I will leave it there since for now.Arminianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06255206726241506362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32433249612223600762008-01-28T11:04:00.000-08:002008-01-28T11:04:00.000-08:00Ben,Thank you for seeing that the appeal to 1 John...Ben,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for seeing that the appeal to 1 John 5:10 only furthers my point. I am only sorry that I was not as clear as you were in explaining it. I will stick with my Colossians 2:11,12, but I fear that even that I may not have expressed to the best of my ability. We must keep in mind what Paul was trying to show the Colossians and that is that they have been given fullness in Christ (verse 10). In the next several verses he tells them how they came to this fullness. He talks about the circumcision done without hands, which to me is referencing the spiritual circumcision and contrasting it with the circumcision of the flesh. It seems that there were people telling the Colossians that they needed to be circumcised and other things to be a true follower. Paul is setting them straight, by reminding them that they have been already circumcised in spirit and the rest of verse 11 and 12 give more detail of this. We find that the reason that they were circumcised is to put off the body of flesh, which we should probably assume to be referencing the spiritual body. He then goes on to tell us who did or performed this work on them by telling them it was done by Christ. One thing that really stands out in all of this is that in this whole process the Colossians were completely passive. They played absolutely no role in this. We know by verb and participle rules that the “having been buried” refers back to the “you were circumcised” in verse 11. We see that after being circumcised without hands that the Colossians were then “buried with him in baptism” and that they were then subjectively “raised with him through faith”. All of this shows that without the circumcision without hands being done first that the Colossians would not have been raised through faith because their faith is the direct result of the circumcision. <BR/><BR/>What J.C. would have us believe is that regeneration is the meritorious act done by having faith. What the Scriptures say though is that faith is the result of having been regenerated. I doubt that he will see it now, but I am glad that some others are able to see that his use of Scripture is wrong and that his poor attempt to try and make a counter case using 1 John 5:10 only further proved his error.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07822172330383243446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33078075731929809692008-01-28T10:46:00.000-08:002008-01-28T10:46:00.000-08:00Wyatt Roberts: "If it is your view that my nephew ...<B>Wyatt Roberts:</B> <I>"If it is your view that my nephew is presently totally depraved and alienated from God, wherein does the hope of his reconciliation lie?"</I><BR/><BR/>I'm on the road and unable to answer in detail, but Spurgeon answered your questions (exactly the same way I would) in his sermon titled <A HREF="http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0411.htm" REL="nofollow">"Infant Salvation."</A> Check it out.<BR/><BR/>We'll probably take up the issue of infants and people who are severely disabled before this series on depravity is finished. Those who want to discuss that issue will need to wait until it comes up in a post. Please don't turn this thread into a referendum on that subject. But Wyatt's questions are good ones and Spurgeon's sermon (linked above )both answers them succinctly and gives a preview of where I'll eventually go with that subject. If someone has a different point of view and wants to argue about it, please hold that thought until it's the topic of one of my posts.<BR/><BR/>Thanks.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-81729538486188211562008-01-28T10:19:00.000-08:002008-01-28T10:19:00.000-08:00Unless I miss the point it does appear that 1 John...Unless I miss the point it does appear that 1 John 5:10 bolsters Paul's case. It seems that these people do not believe because they have made God to be a liar first and that is why they do not believe it now. It is not like these people believed God in the past and now they think that this testimony is a lie so in this case God must be lying, rather it seems that they think that God is a liar and have always thought this and that is why they do not believe him now. <BR/><BR/>As to the Colossians passage, that seems a bit to ambiguous for either one of you to make a definitive case on.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11081244157646985055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10147930343634600952008-01-26T21:06:00.000-08:002008-01-26T21:06:00.000-08:00Phil (or anyone else who cares to comment):I have ...Phil (or anyone else who cares to comment):<BR/><BR/>I have a nephew who is severely retarded. He is thirteen years old and cannot feed himself. He does not speak, but occasionally grunts or squeals or sometimes, inexplicably, lays on the floor and laughs.<BR/><BR/>Can you please help me understand in what sense he is a slave to sin? What evil, exactly, is he in bondage to?<BR/><BR/>If it is your view that my nephew is presently totally depraved and alienated from God, wherein does the hope of his reconciliation lie?Wyatt Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15580611892079902563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28716125409376689632008-01-25T07:56:00.000-08:002008-01-25T07:56:00.000-08:00J.C.Let me see if I get your point. The ones that ...J.C.<BR/><BR/>Let me see if I get your point. The ones that are presently believing what God has said in the <B>past</B> are the ones that have the testimony in their heart and the ones that are not presently believing what God has said in the <B>past</B> do not have His testimony in their heart; because he has not believed the testimony that God has given about His Son. It appears that they do not believe what God has said in the past about His Son and have called God a liar. So yes they make God to be a liar by not believing what he has said in the past about His Son. The wording tells me that they think that God is a liar and they do not believe the testimony about His Son. <BR/><BR/>Again, this does not help you in anyway when it comes to Jn 5:24. Just like in Colossians the “circumcision without hands”, which by the way is regeneration, preceded all other things and is the cause for faith.<BR/><BR/>Look man, you obviously think that you are right and I think that I am right. You think that you have the Greek on your side and I think that I do. Something tells me that you will keep thinking your way and I will keep thinking my way, so goodbye.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07822172330383243446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72859765724693500052008-01-25T06:56:00.000-08:002008-01-25T06:56:00.000-08:00Paul,I did look over the use of perfect tenses in ...Paul,<BR/><BR/>I did look over the use of perfect tenses in Greek, the construct used in John 5:24 does not necessitate that "passed from death to life" (perfect tense) precede "believe" (present participle). A similar grammatical construct is used in 1 John 5:10,<BR/><BR/><I>"...he that believeth not God hath made Him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son."</I><BR/><BR/>Here, "believeth" is also present participle, and "hath made" is perfect tense; the wording is not indicating that one who does not believe must have made God out to be a liar first, for the very next statement indicates that his unbelief is the means by which he does so. Of course it wasn't that hard to figure out the logic behind the tense. Take for hypothetical example a paranoid king who believes all of his advisors are plotting against him, so he invites them to a feast; it is not a problem in tense if in a moment of time he states, "everyone who is eating at this table has been poisoned." Their being poisoned would not logically have needed to precede their eating, and in fact the order of precedence is likely the opposite. Likewise when the Lord states that "everyone who is believing has passed from death to life," it produces no logical contradiction with the fact that we are risen with Him through faith.<BR/><BR/>As for Colossians 2, our being risen with Christ is aorist tense, i.e. something that has already occurred for those now believing, not the future resurrection. This is then talking about being brought to spiritual life - regeneration - through faith.J.C. Thibodauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12884600822119690931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89883650383858533722008-01-24T17:18:00.000-08:002008-01-24T17:18:00.000-08:00J.C.Are we reading the same text, I wonder because...J.C.<BR/><BR/>Are we reading the same text, I wonder because of this -<I> being risen with Christ comes after the circumcision mentioned, still throwing a monkeywrench in the gears of regeneration prior to faith,</I>- What?<BR/><BR/>Do you even know what we are discussing? Of course I say that circumcision precedes being risen with Christ and faith. That is what we have been going back and forth on. As for your perceived problem of baptism, do you actually think it is talking of the physical baptism? Your view has more problems than I first thought. <BR/><BR/>As for John 5, you saying there is no chronological order does not make it so. In fact the Greek makes it readily apparent that there is an order and that is <B>regeneration preceded faith</B>. You are right that it is talking about believing now and hearing now, but the passing out of death into life happened first. This is crystal clear from the Greek. As for your Romans 8 again what? <B>If</B> Christ is in you, your body is dead, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. How does that address the faith comes first again? I would completely agree with that statement, if Christ is in you your body is dead. Wow! This exegesis by you leaves me dumbfounded. It would probably help you a great deal <B>if you actually would read the text</B>.<BR/><BR/>Oh well, it seems that I am not able to see what you are saying and you can not see what I am saying so goodbye!Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07822172330383243446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-90538179334228494762008-01-24T15:50:00.000-08:002008-01-24T15:50:00.000-08:00Paul, The "you were circumcised" in Greek means an...Paul, <BR/><BR/><I>The "you were circumcised" in Greek means an action that was in the past and they were just the recipients of the action.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, I wasn't arguing that.<BR/><BR/><I>The rest of verse 11 and all of verse 12 is subordinate to this.</I><BR/><BR/>The way it's listed is not a chronology though, taken as such the order it presents would be:<BR/><BR/>circumcised<BR/>baptism<BR/>faith->being risen with Christ (through faith)<BR/>being made alive from sins and trespasses<BR/><BR/>Going chronologically, being risen with Christ comes after the circumcision mentioned, still throwing a monkeywrench in the gears of regeneration prior to faith, never mind the problems of baptism prior to regeneration. As far as John 5, Jesus is speaking of those who already believe, saying that they have passed from death to life, not specifying an 'order or operations' for the dynamics that occur in the instant one comes to salvation, but simply describing those who believe now, therefore posing no difficulty for faith prior to regeneration. How they pass from death to life initially He indicates in the very next verse, which states that those who hear shall live. So your assertion concerning John 5:24 is shot down by way of clarification in the very next verse, and your interpretation of Colossians 2 both has no solid contextual support and is flatly contradicted by Romans 8.<BR/><BR/><I>"But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness."</I> (Romans 8:10)<BR/><BR/>So if our spirit is alive because of righteousness, then logically, are you asserting that righteousness also precedes faith?J.C. Thibodauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12884600822119690931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53312203866666143052008-01-24T15:27:00.000-08:002008-01-24T15:27:00.000-08:00John 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this...John 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." <BR/><BR/>For years I thought that my own faith saved me but later, I have learned that regeneration precedes faith. People are always confused about the relationship of faith to regeneration. Faith before regeneration to me is a "faith system" that leads some to believe that their decision “settles things with God” for all eternity which can lead them to eternal hell. The biblical perspective is that the Holy Spirit is the one who gives assurance, not the evangelist or any other person. Recognizing the Jesus voice is like a sheep recognizing the shepherd's voice. Only the Holy Spirit can prick a person's heart to cause a person to hear Christ's voice. Jesus said in John 10:14-15 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep." The Holy Spirit, not the Church. 1 Thessalonians 1:5 "For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance (conviction), as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake." <BR/><BR/>Ephesians 4:30 "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." The Word of God is tuned to speak to our inner conscience and demonstrates with spiritual convictions.<BR/><BR/>A spiritually dead person cannot will himself to live anymore than a physically dead person can will himself to come back to life. If the dead person (spiritually or physically) is to come back to life he/she will have to be resurrected by God. In the spiritual realm this means he/she must be born from above. A spiritually dead person is without the Holy Spirit, therefore we do not have the "ability" to get saved on our own. We need the Holy Spirit to prick and quicken us to be alive. Without the Holy Spirit is TOTAL DEPRAVITY". The Holy Spirit is the only person that can quicken people to be saved. Through the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of life and light and love. Faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit, without the Holy Spirit, you can't have faith and without the Holy Spirit, you can't be spiritual. If you don't have faith, then you don't have the Holy Spirit. Faith don't come before the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit comes before Faith. Faith will express itself in faith deeds not just words aloneAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12636656959074070720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61982772166641449982008-01-24T15:11:00.000-08:002008-01-24T15:11:00.000-08:00J.C.The …you were circumcised… in Greek means an a...J.C.<BR/><BR/>The <I>…you were circumcised…</I> in Greek means an action that was in the past and they were just the recipients of the action. The rest of verse 11 and all of verse 12 is subordinate to this. Just as in Jn 5:24 that the ones presently hearing and presently believing are the ones that have passed out of death into life in the past. This all means that regeneration <B>precedes</B> faith. You failure to accept the clear teaching of Scripture is amazing, but your foolishness of saying that your view has already been shown just shows how shallow and ignorant you are on this. I have conclusively shown that a true and accurate reading of Jn. 5:24 and Col. 2:11,12 proves without a doubt that <B>regeneration precedes faith</B>, I have the weight of Scripture to back me up on it. <BR/><BR/>Seeing as we are in the “this is what it says, no this is what it says” mode it may be best just to move on. In the spirit of love we will just have to agree to disagree. This will be my last post on this thread, perhaps we will interact at some other time and place if God willing. Take care.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07822172330383243446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-42729615169739538002008-01-24T14:52:00.000-08:002008-01-24T14:52:00.000-08:00Paul,There's nothing in the sentence structure to ...Paul,<BR/><BR/>There's nothing in the sentence structure to back up your assertions or rigid chronology. But if those that hear (aorist participle) shall live (future), then hearing precedes being made alive. Likewise if we are already risen (aorist) with Christ <B>through faith</B>, then faith must logically precede being made spiritually alive. The context of scripture as a whole defeats your interpretation as has already been shown: the circumcision of Christ (the putting off of the sin of the flesh) comes because of Christ being in us, and if "your spirit is alive because of righteousness," (Romans 8:10) and righteousness is indeed by faith, then it isn't hard to put together the fact that faith precedes our spirit being alive.J.C. Thibodauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12884600822119690931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-83869037527607887842008-01-24T14:07:00.000-08:002008-01-24T14:07:00.000-08:00J.C.Your ignorance of Greek is showing. If you do ...J.C.<BR/><BR/>Your ignorance of Greek is showing. If you do it properly you will see that the circumcision without hands is done <B>FIRST</B> just as Jesus said in John. <BR/><BR/>Again, seeing as you do not accept the Greek it is pointless to go on. What we have here is this is what the Greek says and you say "no, that is not right because it makes no sense." Right! <BR/><BR/>BTW, when you wrote - <I>faith precedes regeneration to say, "he who is now believing has passed from death to life," since the he made said transition when he first believed</I><BR/><BR/>Again, your lack of understanding Greek is showing here as well. What the text clearly states is that the passing from death to life <B>preceded</B> coming to faith. It’s like you want to forget that little point, but the text won’t let you.<BR/><BR/>Anyways, good luck and may I encourage you to study up on your Greek.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07822172330383243446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-59716389099504840642008-01-24T13:41:00.000-08:002008-01-24T13:41:00.000-08:00That's not correct Paul. There is no indication of...That's not correct Paul. There is no indication of a sequential series of events here, but a description of the things God does in the redeemed. The circumcision He does is for the putting off of the sin of the flesh,<BR/><BR/><I>"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ...."</I><BR/><BR/>which happens when one is in Christ,<BR/><BR/><I>"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."</I> (Romans 6:6)<BR/><BR/><I>"And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."</I> (Romans 8:10)<BR/><BR/>To be both dead to sin and alive because of righteousness as Romans 8 states, one must have faith, for the righteousness of the gospel is by faith (Romans 3:22, 4:5, and so on).J.C. Thibodauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12884600822119690931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-14493915894124594132008-01-24T11:38:00.000-08:002008-01-24T11:38:00.000-08:00J.C.You are digging yourself a deeper hole by refe...J.C.<BR/><BR/>You are digging yourself a deeper hole by referring to Colossians 2:12. You see if you want to understand verse 12 it helps to look at verse 11. The proper exegetical way to read the beginning of verse 12 is <I> you were circumcised before being buried with Him in baptism</I> it is clear that the circumcision of verse 11 that was made without hands was done <B>before</B> faith. <BR/><BR/>Anyways, it is probably pointless to go into any more depth since I doubt you will “see” or “hear” what I am saying. So with that I will say goodbye and thanks.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07822172330383243446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55622630433496338102008-01-24T10:32:00.000-08:002008-01-24T10:32:00.000-08:00Paul,There is no contradiction for one who believe...Paul,<BR/><BR/>There is no contradiction for one who believe that faith precedes regeneration to say, "he who is now believing has passed from death to life," since the he made said transition when he first believed as we are risen with Christ through faith (Colossians 2:12).J.C. Thibodauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12884600822119690931noreply@blogger.com