tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post5958593724936967837..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Music/worship style: a small-to-mid-sized church conundrumPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20897586945546121842014-07-19T14:14:43.668-07:002014-07-19T14:14:43.668-07:00I don't know; if God had wanted more than one ...I don't know; if God had wanted more than one kind of music to use, wouldn't He have made more than one kind of flower, one kind of fruit, one kind of vegetable?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54269824564591392112014-07-19T14:10:17.355-07:002014-07-19T14:10:17.355-07:00Scott McClare:
Second, I didn't say that musi...Scott McClare:<br /><br /><i>Second, I didn't say that musical choice is "just" a mere preference, without any sort of moral value. Punk, for example, was born out of anger and rebellion; while that might make it a suitable vehicle for protest, it seems to me hardly suitable for praise.</i><br /><br />Are there not Psalms that would benefit, at least in places from slightly angrier types of music?<br /><br />Punk as a movement is a problem because it's anti-skill - contra Ps 33:3. Obviously there were skilled musicians in the movement but the aim was basically not to be.<br /><br />But there might be places in which something more akin to certain kinds of metal would be enormously appropriate accompaniment to some Psalms. Obviously, it would have to be within the musicians' skillset and singable by all - but that is possible.<br /><br />I think the bit I differ from you is the term 'praise' - in that worship involves more than just praise (e.g. petition and narrative)<br /><br /><i>Some genres of electronic music are so mechanized and processed that all natural, acoustic sound has been filtered out of it; it reflects an apparent worldview that seems so de-humanized that it couldn't have room for God, either.</i><br /><br />Really interesting thoughts there. More straightforward synthesised sounds (e.g. square waves) tend to have associations with stars and space - the heavens as the Bible might put it. Since the heavens declare the glory of God, I could see value in using it for those associations.<br /><br />At the same time, redeemed humans are the most able to worship God so the more human elements of instrumental music would definitely seem more generally appropriate.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846458475646782293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16752240432134176222014-07-19T13:48:28.375-07:002014-07-19T13:48:28.375-07:00Scott Aniol wrote:
What I am objecting to is exac...Scott Aniol wrote:<br /><br /><i>What I am objecting to is exactly what Scott McClare just implied, that musical choices are just preferences, and therefore the more mature Christians should simply accommodate their preferences to the less mature so that the less mature feel comfortable.</i><br /><br />First, I object to your assertion that a preference for certain genres of music indicates a lack of maturity--spiritual, or otherwise.<br /><br />Second, I didn't say that musical choice is "just" a mere preference, without any sort of moral value. Punk, for example, was born out of anger and rebellion; while that might make it a suitable vehicle for protest, it seems to me hardly suitable for praise. Some genres of electronic music are so mechanized and processed that all natural, acoustic sound has been filtered out of it; it reflects an apparent worldview that seems so de-humanized that it couldn't have room for God, either.<br /><br />As far as I'm concerned, if someone objects to a certain genre of music being used for corporate worship, then it's his job to identify the moral characteristics that make it unsuitable. If that can't be done, then perhaps it <i>is</i> a mere matter of taste, after all.<br /><br /><i>If biblically speaking the more mature should be leading and teaching the less mature, and if music teaches and shapes, then it makes more biblical sense that the LESS mature should submit their preferences to the biblically-informed decisions of the more mature.</i><br /><br />And, biblically speaking, Paul told Timothy, "Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity" (1 Tim. 4:12). The Church is not a labour union; maturity is not concomitant with seniority.Scott McClarehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16860823837991898060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47498807540404230962014-07-17T18:32:39.692-07:002014-07-17T18:32:39.692-07:00IMO, in the last analysis, I think the hymns shoul...IMO, in the last analysis, I think the hymns should be sung, and anything with good approved content be sung. Performances should be banned, period. Corporate is the goal and the point. <br /><br />But the hymns we sing from the hymnal have common popular tunes from the era in which they were written. They were not sanctified bits of chord progressions, but rather common popular, easy on the ears, easy to follow for the times, tunes. So why do we not do the same? Why do we need to stick to the King James Version of tunes? Was there something holier about the bar tunes of the past?<br /><br />And on the other end, the youth do not come because the music is better at church than in the bars. Seriously.<br /><br />And the Holy Spirit does not work through the 1-4-5 cuz it feels nice. The point is to unify and focus people on the words they are singing not on the snappiness of the tune.<br /><br />Change the tunes already, if they are are difficult and not unifying. Stay away from songs intended to only emote by the right chord progressions and the appropriate build (that's not the Holy Spirit working, unless I am getting the Holy Spirit at secular concerts as well). <br /><br />And think of how many race/cultural differences are being ignored in this whole discussion? Let's tell them in the Congo that this tune accompanying the Horatius Bonar diddy really reflects the mature folks in America, so you better enjoy it!!<br /><br />Seriously, lets allow for an ESV of music without mystical attachment to the "glory" days, especially cuz that was their ESV when they were doing it!<br /><br />Trim it back, keep it corporate, cut the mysticism, stop the performances, let the Spirit emote, and keep it simple and comfortable for the 21st century ear.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04711330234679737930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13549055992000967372014-07-17T13:11:13.959-07:002014-07-17T13:11:13.959-07:00The straw man argument is not in the post, but the...The straw man argument is not in the post, but the comments...just for clarification.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-75155803717174529552014-07-17T13:10:05.558-07:002014-07-17T13:10:05.558-07:00I'm just wondering if people somehow have forg...I'm just wondering if people somehow have forgotten how Jesus said the world can judge whether we are believers or not in their minds (this isn't the determining fact for salvation)...He said by our love for one another. If we're so attached to a particular way of singing hymns in church that it becomes an obstacle to less mature believers, how is that loving? And at the end of the day that is what we are really talking about here whether people want to admit it or not. Especially when I see a straw man used to make the argument against the types of songs people want to bring into conservative churches. Unless you're talking about Rick Warren's church or something.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84358845522133305322014-07-17T10:07:53.308-07:002014-07-17T10:07:53.308-07:00Bill: 'It isn't easy to just say... that c...Bill: <i>'It isn't easy to just say... that certain groups have to "be more mature".'</i><br /><br />A) It is absolutely necessary that all groups continue to mature.<br /><br />B) It isn't easy, but spiritual growth must be pursued at all costs.<br /><br />Without growth in spiritual maturity, symptoms of spiritual immaturity, like the worship wars, will continue to divide churches.Jim Pembertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446388434272680014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46959753507279413252014-07-17T09:46:36.711-07:002014-07-17T09:46:36.711-07:00We have a different twist on our music - there is ...We have a different twist on our music - there is a good blend of "old" and "new". And, depending on song and/or Sunday, various instruments. The issue is the speed - it is always so slooowww. And, yes, people are leaving the church because they can't "get into" worship. It isn't easy to just say that "we all have to get along" or that certain groups have to "be more mature". There is no question that the music is worshipful or that the music is appropriate or that it is a cross section. It seems to universally disagree with everybody. But, for some strange reason, the leadership talks about change but it never comes.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18069604289023121850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20724095424098397212014-07-17T05:07:16.110-07:002014-07-17T05:07:16.110-07:00Ian, all three of those phrases bring images of jo...Ian, all three of those phrases bring images of joy to my mind and it’s not fully renewed either.JackWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16384160992033491748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27308525887956471192014-07-16T17:36:23.579-07:002014-07-16T17:36:23.579-07:00It seems to me that the goal of corporate worship ...It seems to me that the goal of corporate worship is that it be corporate. I think that is the purpose of music in worship, as a vehicle of unity in expressing truths glorifying to God, not so much a vehicle for emoting. So in my opinion, that which accomplishes this, is best. Some of the good ol' hymns are seriously distracting as they are tuned to an ear from a couple hundred years ago. They should be changed. On the other end, many songs are so clearly just emoting that they distract from the spirit/truth content.<br /><br />I LOVE me some Bifrost Arts, but I get queezy when it happens at church. It is too clearly a performance put on by skilled performers, not corporate worship (emphasis on corporate). This makes it quite distracting with reference to the real goal.<br /><br />And the musically inclined should not be discouraged by this principle. I build cabinets and I think it glorifies God. But I don't plan to do it on stage as part of the worship service.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04711330234679737930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78393001791536567822014-07-16T16:41:16.719-07:002014-07-16T16:41:16.719-07:00Scott - you didn't say worship music should no...Scott - you didn't say worship music should not express joy, but when you use phrases like "the weight of biblical doctrine", "reverent affections", "mature, sober-minded Christians", it doesn't exactly bring images of joy into my mind. (But maybe my mind is not fully renewed!).<br /><br />In response to your claim "there are different types of joy", what Biblical basis is there for that?<br />Ian Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15566472006692485129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-78744921078785567592014-07-16T15:32:35.793-07:002014-07-16T15:32:35.793-07:00Lowell, you asked: I have a question: what styles ...Lowell, you asked: <i>I have a question: what styles would be more appropriate to worship and which ones would not be as appropriate?</i><br /><br />The styles that I approve as appropriate, of course.<br /><br />Ha! Just kidding.<br /><br />Seriously, my point is not to say that it's perfectly apparent or easy to make such decisions as to what exactly is appropriate. All I'm suggesting is that we must begin with the right presupposition, and it is that music is formative: it shapes its textual content and shapes people. Therefore only music that shapes its content appropriately and forms mature believers is good for corporate worship. Beyond that, we must also certainly consider accessibility and other factors unique to our situations, and thus what is best might differ from congregation to congregation.<br /><br />What I am objecting to is exactly what Scott McClare just implied, that musical choices are just preferences, and therefore the more mature Christians should simply accommodate their preferences to the less mature so that the less mature feel comfortable. If biblically speaking the more mature should be leading and teaching the less mature, and if music teaches and shapes, then it makes more biblical sense that the LESS mature should submit their preferences to the biblically-informed decisions of the more mature.<br /><br />Chantry - nice.<br /><br />Marie - The regulative principle solves more issues with the <i>elements</i> of worship than the <i>forms</i>, but I do agree that it nevertheless helps. Although less specific, Scripture does give guidance for our forms in <i>how</i> the Bible expresses truth through aesthetic forms and the kinds of affections that the Bible encourages in worship.<br /><br />Ian S - That leads me to address a comment you made. First, I'm not exactly sure where I said that worship music should not express joy; of course we should express joy in worship.<br /><br />But, this does raise an important issue: Yes, our worship should include joy (along with all kinds of other biblically-prescribed affections), but there are different kinds of joy, and not all of them are appropriate for expression to the Lord. Some things we call "joy" are more fitting for a sporting event or a party than for reverent worship before a holy God.<br /><br />Scott Aniol<br />www.religiousaffections.orgScott Aniolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621068409749951310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-60160796024441339582014-07-16T13:59:59.229-07:002014-07-16T13:59:59.229-07:00My church has long had a so-called "blended&q...My church has long had a so-called "blended" service: meaning hymnody and spiritual songs from a multitude of styles and eras.<br /><br />The theological rationale - given as part of a sermon series on Ephesians, if I remember correctly - is that the church is a family. A "real" family is made up of different people, each with different tastes in food, music, clothing, etc. Yet, for a family to function, you can't cater to one person's particular tastes at the expense of another's. Everyone has to learn how to get along despite their differences.<br /><br />Our church has been blessed with some talented and thoughtful song leaders, who consistently choose music that is literally worshipful: ascribing the worth to our God and Saviour that he is worthy of. If they keep up that good work, then (with relatively few exceptions) I care not what package it comes in.Scott McClarehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16860823837991898060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12555269646248625122014-07-16T13:57:53.741-07:002014-07-16T13:57:53.741-07:00This is in reference to Scott's comments about...This is in reference to Scott's comments about some musical styles being more appropriate for worship than others. I have a question: what styles would be more appropriate to worship and which ones would not be as appropriate?Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16315985596383975403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-49796475740722924312014-07-16T13:50:34.878-07:002014-07-16T13:50:34.878-07:00Absolutely DJP and I thought the post and most con...Absolutely DJP and I thought the post and most contributions have been excellent and thought-provoking. But with a few posts I get the sense that I might be being trolled hard - or that I'm completely missing the point (could well be that).Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846458475646782293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-29157953026671255392014-07-16T13:48:39.835-07:002014-07-16T13:48:39.835-07:00Well, Paul, of course I was sincere in the opening...Well, Paul, of course I was sincere in the opening paragraph that frames everything, and the questions. And let me say that I appreciate everyone who read all the post and have been discussing these issues seriously and respectfully, like family.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58245997466388271572014-07-16T13:43:06.605-07:002014-07-16T13:43:06.605-07:00It's getting to the stage where it's hard ...It's getting to the stage where it's hard to tell who's being sarcastic in the comments and who really believes what they're saying.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846458475646782293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86477362669413479012014-07-16T13:16:12.763-07:002014-07-16T13:16:12.763-07:00Dorothy,
You're absolutely right. I think all ...Dorothy,<br />You're absolutely right. I think all those youngsters should either accept the old style whether they like it or not or just stop coming to church. But they are evil if they leave and go to another church that has a new, hip style. Churches like that should stop stealing our young people.<br /><br />Sarcasm aside, it truly is the spiritually mature that should sacrifice for the needs of the spiritually immature lest they lose the opportunity to pour into the lives of the spiritually immature and disciple them. That's the simple side of the "worship wars". Who is going to be spiritually mature?Jim Pembertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446388434272680014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53667462219608820302014-07-16T13:06:07.825-07:002014-07-16T13:06:07.825-07:00Tom, I happen to like some of those made-up storie...Tom, I happen to like some of those made-up stories about Martin Luther. Chasing the organist... good one!Jim Pembertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446388434272680014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-5742830508254009422014-07-16T12:56:04.162-07:002014-07-16T12:56:04.162-07:00I've been watching this without commenting, wh...I've been watching this without commenting, which was probably wise, but hey...<br /><br /><i>Scott's comment reminded of the period in history when the church banned major scales because they were too happy-sounding.</i><br /><br />As long as we're making stuff up, Ian's comment reminds me of when Martin Luther chased the organist around the cathedral in Wittenberg with a sword because he had played "Ein Feste Burg" too slowly. But maybe that's just me.Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10270383401998321542014-07-16T12:48:58.575-07:002014-07-16T12:48:58.575-07:00For this comment & the one a few below: why d...For this comment & the one a few below: why do the "old folks" & the "more mature" always have to be the ones to give in & accept the changes to the "new way society says things should be done"? So much of these "new" praise & worship songs/music are either redundant to the point of boredom or the "music" is such rock that it sounds like satanic music.......the old hymns sound more worshipful I sure hope this doesn't mean CBC is thinking of changing it's style!!!!dorothy erdelyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13275849463944523347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58304082637310439132014-07-16T12:36:06.515-07:002014-07-16T12:36:06.515-07:00I'd like to respond to this comment from Scott...I'd like to respond to this comment from Scott Aniol:<br /><br /><i>Music? No, because it's not about comfort or preference but rather about what kinds of music best fit the weight of biblical doctrine, best express the kinds of reverent affections appropriate for expression to God, and best form mature, sober-minded Christians.</i><br /><br />I used to go to a church where all those things were true about the music, and the members were mature and sober-minded.<br /><br />BUT the members were also lifeless, proud, greedy, unloving, and argumentative. The joy of the Lord was absent, and the services felt like you had gone back in time 50 years.<br /><br />Scott's comment reminded of the period in history when the church banned major scales because they were too happy-sounding. Church music had to be in minor keys to suit the solemn and serious nature of faith and worship.<br /><br />Yes, everything Scott said is true, but is it the whole truth? Respectfully, I don't think it is. For example, I believe the Bible teaches that joy should be one of the main characteristics of worship. If that isn't reflected in our music then there is something very wrong.<br /><br />Back on-topic, within the parameters of glorifying God, building up believers, and reaching the lost, I think churches should use a range of music that reflects the make-up of the congregation.Ian Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15566472006692485129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84432727135680709262014-07-16T12:27:16.228-07:002014-07-16T12:27:16.228-07:00DJP. My new church is more traditional for my ta...DJP. My new church is more traditional for my taste, but they preach the word and hold firmly to Sola Scriptura. Singing style was just not the priority anymore.<br /><br />All that said, our church does have a contemporary service once a month and has "Bridge-gapping" songs in either service. Such as "In Christ Alone" or other getty/townend type songs.<br /><br />The fact that my church is trying to appease all while still maintaining the reverence and doctrinal integrity is all I need even though my preference is not catered to fully. Hope that helps!Donnyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13579379996845760650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-5083150109527017482014-07-16T10:45:08.253-07:002014-07-16T10:45:08.253-07:00All could be solved by adherence to the regulative...All could be solved by adherence to the regulative principle, could it not?Mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17968485400051945217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-92186267694547114412014-07-16T06:03:23.302-07:002014-07-16T06:03:23.302-07:00I'm sorry there was some logjamming of the com...I'm sorry there was some logjamming of the comments. Really don't know how it happened; I've been approving them as I've seen them.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.com