tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post5959649670257075128..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Two-for-one mistakesPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger145125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74815959222466668032007-11-29T11:37:00.000-08:002007-11-29T11:37:00.000-08:0024 hour cooling-off period declared. Give yoursel...24 hour cooling-off period declared. Give yourself a break, whoever you are.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-11756172416918980912007-11-29T11:35:00.000-08:002007-11-29T11:35:00.000-08:00Drew,Your appeal to personality etc. is meaningles...Drew,<BR/><BR/>Your appeal to personality etc. is meaningless unless you're trying to say that up until recently there was one dominant world personality that has now changed.<BR/><BR/>The differences you mention are all superficial and have always existed. They are not new. Reason? People are still people.Darylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01296029404229769941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47466871387563971302007-11-29T11:30:00.000-08:002007-11-29T11:30:00.000-08:00Hey, Frank..Do me a favor. The next batch of Kool-...Hey, Frank..<BR/><BR/>Do me a favor. The next batch of Kool-Aid you mix up, make mine cherry or grape. Just don't make me watch the dumb commercial with the talking, singing jug. "Oh, yeah!" <BR/><BR/>Come to think of it, skip the Kool-Aid and make me a nice, strong latte and buy me a pair of Birkenstocks. I'll then grow a goatee and begin writing everything in lower case. You know, just to fit in certain circles. <BR/><BR/>One more thing. Stop harping so much on the meaning of culture. What culture means to me depends on the moment -- just the same as meanings to various Bible verses and theological terms. I make up meanings on the spot and expect you to accept my mercurialness.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-57921067243141306872007-11-29T11:27:00.001-08:002007-11-29T11:27:00.001-08:00Drew,Ever been to a different culture?Ever listene...<I><BR/>Drew,<BR/><BR/>Ever been to a different culture?<BR/>Ever listened to someone who has?<BR/><BR/>Invariably the report/experience is,"They do stuff differently, but people are people."<BR/><BR/>There's a reason people say that.<BR/><BR/>It's true.<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>That's funny, because I just spent 3 weeks in Vietnam. And the (American) missionaries there are so frustrated because they think so differently than the Vietnamese. <BR/><BR/>I bought a t-shirt that reads, "Same, same, but different" it perfectly captures the way the different way of thinking. Things can be the same and different. <BR/><BR/>If I assume that all people are the same, than I am likely to assume that they are all like me (or the way I used to be), and then I don't have to listen to them.<BR/><BR/>But when I listen openly, I find that some things are the same: (people love their kids, people love sin, whatever), and other things are different: (not everyone fears hell, not everyone understands justice as we do, some people think systematically, others linearly, etc)<BR/><BR/>It's not just a difference of education. It's also personality.<BR/><BR/>The church, in its current American expression, has less creative people than analytical people. Why is it that way?<BR/><BR/>It could be because creative people are inherently stubborn and unwilling to repent (but I don't think so)<BR/><BR/>It could be because we have focused on an incomplete presentation of the gospel that appeals to analytical people, like us (bingo!)<BR/><BR/>I could try to convert creative people to analytical people, to convert them to my gospel, OR I could learn from creative people how they think and try to communicate the gospel to them in their terms. This new language may include some forms and shapes of my old language, but I may, when I learn their new language, discover that something in my old language just doesn't work in the new one.<BR/><BR/>Is this a slippery slope? Yes. Is it hard to do? Yes. But the Spirit is with us, and if Gentiles can learn the Gospel of the Jewish Messiah, then it can be conveyed into any culture and/or language.Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08284171572883616668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54435374907816088162007-11-29T11:27:00.000-08:002007-11-29T11:27:00.000-08:00Dud that answer any of the questions up to now?1) ...Dud that answer any of the questions up to now?<BR/><BR/>1) Who is Jesus? Define Him for us.<BR/><BR/>2) What is your stand on homosexuality?<BR/><BR/>3) Can you prove in Scripture where people, IN THEIR HEART, do indeed change?<BR/><BR/>Number 1 will dictate how relevant your comment about your friend was because many people, one could say, understand Christ, as in a concept or something like that, but as you and I know, that isn't good enough.<BR/><BR/>Number 2 is, admittedly, only part of the sinfulness of man, but what you truly believe about it shows what you believe about the sufficiency and inerrancy of Scripture.<BR/><BR/>Number 3 shows the same thing.S.J. Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15922550763548455625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80834216598152881392007-11-29T11:14:00.000-08:002007-11-29T11:14:00.000-08:00Of course it was a silly response. You made a sil...Of course it was a silly response. <BR/><BR/>You made a silly assertion (that people don't change).<BR/><BR/>As to you more serious assertion: <BR/><BR/>"When someone has an incorrect view of anything, we don't come up with another definition that is more pallatable or less offensive in his culture, we tell him "no, what this really means is this and keep on using the right word in the first place."<BR/><BR/>I agree, most of the time, and I have stated, countless times, this is what I have been doing, with the word "Christian," and even the word "Evangelical."<BR/><BR/>But sometimes, said words are barriers to conversation. In such cases, it makes sense to start with the definition, and when a person assents to that, go to the word.<BR/><BR/>An example. I have a friend who likes "Christ," but fears "Jesus." Now, you and I both know that this does not make sense. Do I abandon the name Jesus? No! But I do set aside the name for a time, rather than argue semantics. We talk about Christ. As we talk, my understanding of who Christ is rooted in a Biblical/historical understanding of Jesus. <BR/><BR/>After hearing her explain herself, I have been able to correct some of her misunderstandings about who Jesus is, but we both have a long way to go. I don't know if she will ever confess the (exact) name of Jesus or not, but in the meantime, her understanding of "Christ" is approaching the Biblical understanding of who Jesus Christ is.<BR/><BR/>Have I abandoned Jesus? No. But if I would have insisted on using his name from the start, there would have been no opportunity to share the good news about him.Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08284171572883616668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67016040107520515862007-11-29T11:07:00.001-08:002007-11-29T11:07:00.001-08:00Thanks DerylGod BlessThanks Deryl<BR/><BR/>God BlessS.J. Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15922550763548455625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-83965256761382459022007-11-29T11:07:00.000-08:002007-11-29T11:07:00.000-08:00Drew,Ever been to a different culture?Ever listene...Drew,<BR/><BR/>Ever been to a different culture?<BR/>Ever listened to someone who has?<BR/><BR/>Invariably the report/experience is,"They do stuff differently, but people are people."<BR/><BR/>There's a reason people say that.<BR/><BR/>It's true.Darylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01296029404229769941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73928712984763800372007-11-29T11:05:00.002-08:002007-11-29T11:05:00.002-08:00Drew, This is why you don't agree with/understand ...Drew, <BR/><BR/>This is why you don't agree with/understand what I'm saying. I'm not talking about clothing, superstition, or any of that codswallup. <BR/><BR/>I am talking about the heart of man which has not changed at all. Not at all. If you spent less time thinking about the surface and more time thinking about the heart, you could come to understand what the whole point of salvation is.<BR/><BR/>You prove my point exactly. Thanks. Man looks at the outside, but God looks at the heart.<BR/><BR/>BTW, that sounded an awful lot like evolution to me.S.J. Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15922550763548455625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13343765952647133022007-11-29T11:05:00.001-08:002007-11-29T11:05:00.001-08:00s.j.Drew's last answer is reflective of a culture ...s.j.<BR/><BR/>Drew's last answer is reflective of a culture that believes if we just educate people, they will change for the better.<BR/><BR/>Drew, your silly rant only indicates the people have learned stuff, not that they've changed.<BR/><BR/>The gospel, as originally given, applies in the same way because it does not address knowledge but rather condition, and that (as s.j. noted, has not changed.Darylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01296029404229769941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-91392758446327794922007-11-29T11:05:00.000-08:002007-11-29T11:05:00.000-08:00Tuad-"Apostle Paul said something like "I become a...Tuad-<BR/><BR/>"Apostle Paul said something like "I become all things to all men". But I don't think he meant that it's a point-blank license to dilute the Gospel..."<BR/><BR/>And more exactly, he wasn't saying it about culture, he was saying it in reference to Jews and Gentiles, the circumcised and the uncircumcise, in a religious sense.Strong Towerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834108238546908018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45399428577451493242007-11-29T11:00:00.000-08:002007-11-29T11:00:00.000-08:00And that last answer was as silly as was completel...And that last answer was as silly as was completely superficialS.J. Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15922550763548455625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67393750321118876602007-11-29T10:58:00.000-08:002007-11-29T10:58:00.000-08:00Drew,I'm not questioning the fact that some have c...Drew,<BR/><BR/>I'm not questioning the fact that some have commercialized, culturalized, whateverized the term Christian to something incorrect.<BR/><BR/>But you're answer in effect, is this:<BR/><BR/>"That definition of Christianity is not correct (so far, so good). We need to bring up new terms that more accurately describe what we believe (which I still haven't completely figured out since you won't answer the other questions)."<BR/><BR/>When someone has an incorrect view of anything, we don't come up with another definition that is more pallatable or less offensive in his culture, we tell him "no, what this really means is this and keep on using the right word in the first place.S.J. Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15922550763548455625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-5736795567026034832007-11-29T10:57:00.000-08:002007-11-29T10:57:00.000-08:00SJ. You are right. Most of us are illiterate, we...SJ. You are right. Most of us are illiterate, wear animal skins, believe the world is flat, and that different local gods reign over different parts of the earth.<BR/><BR/>We tend to follow authority, and fear anybody that is different than us. We believe that it makes sense to enslave anybody we defeat. We travel by foot, or maybe sometimes on an animals back.<BR/><BR/>Yup. People haven't changed at all.<BR/><BR/>Oh crap. It's starting to rain. I must have done something bad to cause God to open the holes in the sky to punish me. I better go make a sacrifice.Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08284171572883616668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-18961709846601241242007-11-29T10:43:00.000-08:002007-11-29T10:43:00.000-08:00Rod,You said it.Rod,<BR/><BR/>You said it.S.J. Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15922550763548455625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86897015751538173092007-11-29T10:39:00.000-08:002007-11-29T10:39:00.000-08:00Drew,I'm sorry, but excuse me?! Can you defend the...Drew,<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry, but excuse me?! Can you defend the assertion that people do change from ANYwhere in Scripture?<BR/><BR/>Here is the answer. No.<BR/><BR/>There is only one change in mankind, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Nothing else changes in man. He is only evil continually.S.J. Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15922550763548455625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67215169771490268202007-11-29T10:26:00.000-08:002007-11-29T10:26:00.000-08:00Paul,I like you last one-liner, 'cause that's the ...Paul,<BR/><BR/>I like you last one-liner, 'cause that's the issue isn't it?<BR/>It seems like we've been hearing "People reject Christ because Christians aren't light enough" but if people prefer darkness (and we know they do) then this whole arguement would have the reverse conclusion.Darylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01296029404229769941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2779465490375986772007-11-29T10:25:00.000-08:002007-11-29T10:25:00.000-08:00I'm sure you also didn't mean to call all the read...I'm sure you also didn't mean to call all the readers who agree with me here at TeamPyro part of a mind-numbing cult, Rod, but you did with the "kool-aid" remark.<BR/><BR/>The trajectory here is that you are either deliberately insulting and too timid to admit it, or you are like a kid in 2nd grade who accidentally learns a cuss word who repeats it for shock value without knowing what it means.<BR/><BR/>The latter is less offensive to you. I guess. No need to call you a liar when demonstrating you're simply babbling will do.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28258598461525018132007-11-29T10:24:00.000-08:002007-11-29T10:24:00.000-08:00Mark, I hope you are right.SJ: I hope you do not ...Mark, I hope you are right.<BR/><BR/>SJ: I hope you do not think that I choose the latter definition of "Christian" (sub-par product) for myself. It is one that "Christian" companies and our culture has created, and it a definition that, though I reject (hence all of "this,") is a reality that must be dealt with. <BR/><BR/>Some words do have more than one meaning, right?<BR/><BR/>And yes, people have been depraved and hated God since there was sin, and we will continue to do so, but that doesn't mean that we haven't changed. History (including Biblical history) is full of change--otherwise we wouldn't have to write it down because we'd already know it!Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08284171572883616668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74750768976798588562007-11-29T10:23:00.000-08:002007-11-29T10:23:00.000-08:00...and we love darkness rather than light....and we love darkness rather than light.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-81885761707108333822007-11-29T10:17:00.000-08:002007-11-29T10:17:00.000-08:00Well said Sola!Surrendering to the authority of Je...Well said Sola!<BR/><BR/>Surrendering to the authority of Jesus Christ and His word is difficult for ALL Christians. The maturing process of walking away from the old unregenerate self and adjusting to the new birth is challenging for ALL Christians no matter what corner of the globe you rest your head. Are the sacrifices more extreme for some versus others? Absolutely! Does it change anything? Absolutely not! The command to spread the word and proclaim the gospel is simple to understand and execute. The consequences & results of doing it are not. Are we lead to believe otherwise. <BR/><BR/>IMO, and again I may be off (as some have suggested), we are complicating the spreading procedure in order to try and simplify the acceptance. When the acceptance part is never going to be simple no matter what procedure we come up with to spread it.<BR/><BR/>I am open to those who would share any other [biblical] reason for rejecting Jesus Christ other than, it is foolishness to them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-90061942433460255562007-11-29T10:16:00.000-08:002007-11-29T10:16:00.000-08:00Drew,I take it from your last comment re - culture...Drew,<BR/><BR/>I take it from your last comment re - cultures, that what you meant to say all along is the since cultures are all fallen, give and take between them is irrelevant to anything and the gospel should be preached to everyone whether the natives take up wearing ties or not...<BR/><BR/>Am I close???<BR/><BR/>So you're agreeing with Frank's original post and disagreeing with Rod's wild-eyed assertion that we've been sending missionaries overseas to teach people that 'Made in America' sums up the gospel?<BR/><BR/>See, the trouble isn't the mixing up the gospel on the mission field, it''s the mixing it up here at home. Movements like the EC water it down so it will have no effect on people/culture and then wonder why cultures over-seas often change when the gospel is clearly taught.<BR/><BR/>Movements like the one you've adopted are so hung up on the value of culture in its own right that they sacrifice gospel for culture and get upset when the reverse is done overseas.<BR/>Sure, mistakes have been made by well-meaning missionaries. Some of them will continue to be made.<BR/>So what?? Preach the gospel, teach the word, it will change people, cultures will change, that's all a good thing.Darylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01296029404229769941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12268045643227217032007-11-29T10:08:00.000-08:002007-11-29T10:08:00.000-08:00Drew,I think most of your "cultural baggage", if i...Drew,<BR/><BR/>I think most of your "cultural baggage", if it ever was considered essential by missionaries, has been largely abandoned in our generation.<BR/><BR/>As for the specific instance of the Muer adopting "Western" names, it could just be that they were honoring the missionaries by adopting their culture, rather than seeing it as essential to the Gospel. I am inclined to believe that the missionaries <I>did not</I> teach them that it was essential.Mark B. Hansonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15942591774072214556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36247609990875482682007-11-29T10:02:00.000-08:002007-11-29T10:02:00.000-08:00Drew,I think your post at 8:04 PM, November 28, 20...Drew,<BR/><BR/>I think your post at 8:04 PM, November 28, 2007 starts to give perspective as to a criss-crossing view of words' meanings. That coupled with other statements regarding how Christian can decribe you in one instance, and other times it is <BR/><BR/>"an adjective to describe a product (especially since it was most often a sub-par, derivative product) the word became much less effective in presenting the Gospel". <BR/><BR/>If it can describe you, and also mean this, either you fit this description, or you have two different meanings of it. <BR/><BR/>And no, people don't change either, we are still born wicked as ever, we still hate God as ever, and still think we are better than the age before us as ever(at least in some way). We have changed at all, no matter what culture. We merely are now in the Autumn instead of the Spring.S.J. Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15922550763548455625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47816601782696993682007-11-29T10:01:00.001-08:002007-11-29T10:01:00.001-08:00Rod,Please don't play the martyr. Drew, And your p...Rod,<BR/><BR/>Please don't play the martyr. <BR/><BR/>Drew, <BR/><BR/>And your point is? I ask because you seem to keep missing mine.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.com