tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post6147424539647437477..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Left-leaning politics and the Emerging ChurchPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73010160140666698312007-07-13T10:53:00.000-07:002007-07-13T10:53:00.000-07:00"So what do we tell these people--that they must v..."So what do we tell these people--that they must vote for conservative politics and ask WWJD?"<BR/><BR/>Nope - we tell them to read their Bibles.<BR/><BR/>Maybe they'll get saved.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16466838495115756231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-23761615123662394122007-07-13T09:32:00.000-07:002007-07-13T09:32:00.000-07:00From the looks of things on this blogspot, I must ...From the looks of things on this blogspot, I must be the ONLY person going to the ONLY church in America that holds conservative viewpoints that is nontraditional (that is, we wear sandals to church. Wait--Jesus wore sandals...hm). Some might even say that it falls into the 'emerging' category. I've never voted for a Democrat and I probably never will. That said, I agree that most younger Christians today are more left-leaning politically than in years past. I also know that younger women are less supportive of abortion. So how do you square that with the stereotype? I also know that there are more young women who are victims of sexual abuse in our churches than ever before. I also know that there are more men that didn't have good fathers in their lives. That all contributes to the church climate in many emerging churches today. So what do we tell these people--that they must vote for conservative politics and ask WWJD?<BR/><BR/>Priorities. Jesus comes first, and if they're concerned about poverty, hey we're doing something about that too.bloggernauthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10721174374654762327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84607530193971180082007-07-12T12:55:00.000-07:002007-07-12T12:55:00.000-07:00Phil, I totally agree about the wrongheaded approa...Phil, <BR/><BR/>I totally agree about the wrongheaded approach of revolution, whether in democratic or non-democratic contexts (which should make the establishment of this nation somewhat uncomfortable reality for patriotic American Christendom) and I'd love to check out that Durant quote. But it's passages like the one I mentioned from Acts, the lordship and kingdom language about God's people more broadly in the Bible, and the fact that persecution typically came from governing authorities who perceived threats to their power that seems to paint a picture of the church as an inherently political entity with massive political implications to its host nation (whatever it may be). <BR/><BR/>It also seems clear, though, that whatever the political character of it is, it's not akin to any human political system or philosophy that we observe in the world today - which is what you pointed out so well in this post.Sharad Yadavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12150204571738424517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34911998864689556232007-07-12T12:05:00.000-07:002007-07-12T12:05:00.000-07:00BTW, it's funny how religion is a virtue for Democ...BTW, it's funny how <A HREF="http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1642649,00.html" REL="nofollow">religion is a virtue for Democrats</A> and it's a scheme to pander to stupid religious types on Republicans.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46562550667755708712007-07-12T11:58:00.000-07:002007-07-12T11:58:00.000-07:00Phil excellently stated in a couple of comments EX...Phil excellently stated in a couple of comments EXACTLY what I was thinking about the means of spreading the gospel to initiate change as apposed to political means to initiate change. I have seen the Evangelical community flounder as a result of misplaced focus on politics as a means of accomplishing certain goals. Yeah, we can use Wilburforce as an example of someone involved in politics, but generally speaking, I agree with Phil that there has been much failure in that arena.<BR/><BR/>Sewing: Your stereotype fit me pre-Christian...all except for the 1M condo.candyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088593538648596769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39907569340904072472007-07-12T10:45:00.000-07:002007-07-12T10:45:00.000-07:00Dude, do you know how hard I had to try to put tha...Dude, do you know how hard I had to try to put that comment together? :) I'm glad you appreciated it.Brian in BChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12540126072347448353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-42089892510670557482007-07-12T10:00:00.000-07:002007-07-12T10:00:00.000-07:00"Let's not veer off topic here."Sorry about that. ..."Let's not veer off topic here."<BR/><BR/>Sorry about that. I guess I'm a "stray Cat" sometimes.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46667522911226981542007-07-12T08:42:00.000-07:002007-07-12T08:42:00.000-07:00Brian from BC, Congratulations! You managed to wor...<B>Brian from BC,</B> Congratulations! You managed to work every pomo cliche, code-word, and knee-jerk answer into just four paragraphs. You lost a few points for waiting until comment number 55 (you'll score a little higher in the future if you can get into the top 12).<BR/><BR/>But the good news is you get <I><B>25 extra points</B></I> for the brilliant way you capped your overstatement about <I><B>abortion</B></I> with a horribly inappropriate word picture <B><I>("baby out with the bathwater").</I></B> LOLOL!<BR/><BR/>So you win, hands down, for the most comical comment of this thread—and you're currently in the running for the annual prize, too.<BR/><BR/>(PS: Loved the way you managed to use so many caricatures while decrying labels and generalizations. Truly ingenious stuff.)Habitans in Siccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13666311435942322569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-25471430539893271202007-07-12T07:50:00.000-07:002007-07-12T07:50:00.000-07:00Phil, reading through a great number of posts here...Phil, reading through a great number of posts here we have basically moved the goalposts from discussing the merits, beliefs, opinions and truths of the Reformed tradition in its relation to the very real questions of the EC to now equating "true Christians" with the "conservative Republican" party and the EC "heretics" with the "liberal Democrats". I'm sorry, that's just silly. <BR/><BR/>The entire practice of tossing all encompassing "labels" onto people, groups, churches etc. with whom you disagree (often on one or few points) is a blatant way to end discussion, not open it up.<BR/><BR/>We now have people declaring that the only issue that matters in determining political alliance is abortion. I'm sorry but that truly is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I believe as Christians it is out duty to strive for truth wherever it is found and if we resort to picking one piece of truth or one piece of error in a political party as the all determining identification of their place on the road to salvation or perdition, then we are frankly practicing "religion" instead of Christianity.<BR/><BR/>I sincerely pray that people would learn to step outside their paradigm of preconceptions an realize that there is more to politics and religion than "us" and "them"...as Christians, we should be living, engaging, practicing and promoting truth from whatever "camp" it may spring, to do less and resort to name calling is disingenous and incredibly arrogant.Brian in BChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12540126072347448353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86804262981692641722007-07-12T07:13:00.000-07:002007-07-12T07:13:00.000-07:00Let's not veer off topic here.Oh, sure, just go ah...<I>Let's not veer off topic here.</I><BR/><BR/>Oh, sure, just go ahead and take all the fun out of this...Savage Baptisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14366893048089380061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-37667195797754829442007-07-12T07:02:00.000-07:002007-07-12T07:02:00.000-07:00"...And, in other news today, the sun rose this mo..."...And, in other news today, the sun rose this morning, and the sky is still blue."<BR/><BR/>Talk about stating the obvious. I have been posting on the ties between the Emerging Church and the Rauschenbuschian social gospel for a couple of years now. It is as obvious as the nose on one's face that this is where these guys are going. The EC is nothing more than a religious smokescreen for liberal political thought. As Dan Paden pointed out, McLaren's books (and other EC authors, for that matter) just scream "Democrat party platform."<BR/><BR/>Thank you for getting this out in a more visible venue than my weak pleadings in blog metadiscussions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61580971194603522332007-07-11T22:02:00.000-07:002007-07-11T22:02:00.000-07:00Let's not veer off topic here. The fact that so ma...Let's not veer off topic here. The fact that so many would read this post as an invitation to hold a colloquy about what's wrong with the American political system and how we as Christians might begin to fix it actually illustrates one of the major points I was trying to make about what's wrong with evangelicalism these days.<BR/><BR/>But if someone thinks I want to host such a discussion in the meta of this blog, you've completely missed what I was saying.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73067579603649389112007-07-11T21:17:00.000-07:002007-07-11T21:17:00.000-07:00As American living in another country, I find that...As American living in another country, I find that stepping outside of the fasle dichotomy of political "left/right"; "Democrat/Republican" which characterizes American politics is really neccesary to begin to envision a better path. The two party system which characterizes American politics thrives on being anything but bi-partisan, it creates a complete Black or White divide. If my opponent says X, then it is false. This is a complete travesty as it ends up dividing and coming to policy conclusions on the basis of "the opposite of what he/she says."<BR/><BR/>I have actually found the two additional axis of the "political compass" to be a much better tool for identifying ideologies than sticking to the typical left/right divide. (Google it). What you will discover is that in a great majority of cases, our political leaders all end up with beliefs and practices in one quadrant...exactly opposite to the vast majority of citizens. <BR/><BR/>I'd suggest that the way to enter into much more effective political and Christian dialogue is to first recognize that the current labels in America do far more to create division than to highlight what we as citizens are all looking for, regardless of which equally wrong party we indicate on our ballots.Brian in BChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12540126072347448353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8898891456685596392007-07-11T21:06:00.000-07:002007-07-11T21:06:00.000-07:00Great post! It's very frustrating when professing...Great post! It's very frustrating when professing believers abandon sound doctrine at the drop of a pin for "good intentions". <BR/><BR/>Part of the problem I've observed is that left-wing politics, on the surface, seem compassionate. And, indeed, if we were in the millenial kingdom under the physical rule of Jesus Christ on earth - a large, all-controlling central government would be great-because it would be righteous. Unfortunately, until that time we're stuck with the problem of human sin. Sin, as we know, can't be contained or controlled by pograms or good intentions. It has a progression of it's own (ie. Rom 1:18-32) and the end is always a narcistic mayhem with the strong trammpling the weak. <BR/><BR/>How sad that now many "Christian" ministers don't want to be bothered with something as "boring" as preaching the real Gospel. But I suppose an equal dose of blame goes to "itchy eared" professed believers who won't endure sound doctrine.<BR/><BR/>oh, btw here's a definition of "liberal" you might enjoy:<BR/><BR/> In the old days liberal meant holding losely to your money, today it means holding losely to your morals and tightly to someone else's money!one busy momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18087795055010641099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24526645868410388342007-07-11T20:38:00.000-07:002007-07-11T20:38:00.000-07:00"and its all because American Evangelicals put the..."and its all because American Evangelicals put their trust in princes rather than God."<BR/><BR/>And perhaps because we became lovers of self, and humanity, MORE than loving the glory of God in Christ.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-56557197336854497292007-07-11T19:21:00.000-07:002007-07-11T19:21:00.000-07:00Visiting a few emergent blogs will give one much m...Visiting a few emergent blogs will give one much more insight into this movement than the article that you cite. You have been far too kind in your assessment of the ECM.jazzycathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16720471765591930568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2907782069260982342007-07-11T18:16:00.000-07:002007-07-11T18:16:00.000-07:00I consider myself theologically conservative but p...I consider myself theologically conservative but politically liberal. If I was in America I would be voting for the Democrats (but I wouldn't be one).<BR/><BR/>American Evangelicalism is too much in the pocket of "the right" and has been losing the gospel as a result.<BR/><BR/>American Evangelicalism must not prefer one party or ideology over another.<BR/><BR/>When viewed from the right hand side of politics, any attempt to swing a group of people back the centre will be seen as a "move to the left".<BR/><BR/>I have no problem with Christians who have Right wing / conservative ideology. My problem arises when they then argue that their way is the only way Christians should be on.<BR/><BR/>I have left wing views. I favour bigger government, socialized medicine, more generous welfare, more state education, and higher taxes to pay for them. But I'm not going to say that this way is the only way that Christians should believe.<BR/><BR/>And that's the difference.<BR/><BR/>American Evangelicals are really in a spot of bother. Evangelicals were President Bush's greatest support for the invasion of Iraq.<BR/><BR/>Now that the war is going badly, and that the reasons for gong to war have been proven false (Iraq had no WMDs; Saddam was not a threat to anyone; Saddam was not in cahoots with Osama and was not involved in 9/11). Isn't it obvious that many Americans are now viewing Evangelicals with fear and hostility?<BR/><BR/>Evangelicals support the Republican party. Yet the people of America have turned against its corruption. So called evangelicals like Tom DeLay have sullied the Evangelical cause with their corruption.<BR/><BR/>The fact is that many Americans will turn against the church as a result of the last 7 years of Christian-influenced politics. Bush will go down in history as the worst president ever, and the words "corruption" and "immoral war" will be linked to American Evangelicals as a result.<BR/><BR/>We're entering a new era of secularism - and its all because American Evangelicals put their trust in princes rather than God.Neil Cameron (One Salient Oversight)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03143948543305522865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74986711126635736252007-07-11T15:30:00.000-07:002007-07-11T15:30:00.000-07:00Rey, yes but notice that (a) suddenly EVERY post h...Rey, yes but notice that (a) suddenly EVERY post has kittens, and that (b) there's something a bit off with every kitty.<BR/><BR/>I caught a random image of a cow on the blog logo this morning...how about more cows as well?Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55419898746217498602007-07-11T15:20:00.000-07:002007-07-11T15:20:00.000-07:00Thanks for this!Thanks for this!Caleb Kolstadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16430229005942296570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-43764960639659939302007-07-11T14:11:00.000-07:002007-07-11T14:11:00.000-07:00I don't care much what you wrote (I didn't read it...I don't care much what you wrote (I didn't read it yet) but I am immensely happy that you all have been incorporating more kittens into your posts.<BR/><BR/>The Lord bless you and keep you and grant your kittens peace.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03540790360133280664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16236704728366322172007-07-11T12:33:00.000-07:002007-07-11T12:33:00.000-07:00"All elections for Christians should be one-issue ..."All elections for Christians should be one-issue elections."<BR/><BR/>That's Piper by the way - should've had quotes.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16466838495115756231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54784780766427697262007-07-11T12:31:00.000-07:002007-07-11T12:31:00.000-07:003 opinions, if I may:1. There is no essential diff...3 opinions, if I may:<BR/><BR/>1. There is no essential difference between Republicans and Democrats. They are all greedy money-hungry, demonized evil hand-puppets for Satan, and with the exception of issues of life and death (i.e. abortion) we should be content to submit to the governing authorities and seek to win souls to Christ.<BR/><BR/>2. The ONLY governmental system that will not ultimately lead to sin, sorrow, pain, death and hell is the one which Christ will institute in an earthly millenium. That being said, however, we should still vote for the political party which upholds the right to life for the unborn. All elections for Christians should be one-issue elections. In other words, a man who would charge me no taxes, ban gay marraige and privatize everything *but* was pro-choice would NOT get my vote.<BR/><BR/>3. Phil said, "But still, that hasn't kept McKnight from voting Democrat, and he really doesn't offer any strategy for making sure the Emerging Church movement doesn't fall into the same devastating error that destroyed the mainstream denominations."<BR/><BR/>The terrifying thing about the Emergent movement is encapsulated here - and it's MUCH worse than the modernism of the mainline denominations. The Emergent movement is willing to live with internal contradictions because their postmodern notions allow them to tiptoe around what would have driven a mondernist nutty. <BR/><BR/>McKnight doesn't offer a strategy because HE DOESN'T HAVE TOO!!! And they're FINE with that because contradiction is ok. <BR/><BR/>That, my friends, is terrifying.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16466838495115756231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-70236181573414071932007-07-11T12:30:00.000-07:002007-07-11T12:30:00.000-07:00Mr. Rudd:I think there would be many who get tagge...Mr. Rudd:<BR/><I>I think there would be many who get tagged "emerging" that would side with horton or crouch regarding epistemology. unfortunately, mclaren's "truth" claims get a lot more press.</I><BR/><BR/>Mr. McLaren and some like him get a lot more press because they sell a lot more books. <BR/><BR/>It's never ceased to amaze me that the Emerging Conversation so richly rewards certain authors, and then turns around and spends so much of its time denying that the viewpoints of those authors are in any way generally held throughout the Conversation.Savage Baptisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14366893048089380061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-35209367076981975562007-07-11T12:24:00.000-07:002007-07-11T12:24:00.000-07:00And I have to wonder if God is either laughing in ...And I have to wonder if God is either laughing in hysteria or fuming in anger at the absurdity of this movement. "Oh okay, the traditional doctrine of substitutionary atonement is too hard for people to accept. Whatever will we do? . . . Oh wait! I know! We can change it!" Pathetic and laughably unintelligent.<BR/><BR/>Seth<BR/><A HREF="http://www.whatum.com" REL="nofollow">whatum.com</A><BR/>theological satire<BR/><BR/>(sorry for all the deletes!)Seth Fullerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07971543656247882892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8570064578775731342007-07-11T11:19:00.000-07:002007-07-11T11:19:00.000-07:00Raja, Thanks for your comments back...You said, "I...Raja, <BR/><BR/>Thanks for your comments back...<BR/><BR/>You said, "Instead He conquered the world's ultimate enemies (sin, death, Satan) through self-sacrifice. " <BR/><BR/>Obviously these foes have a known presence on the earth still. This tension exists in almost every aspect of theology. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about --- It's called already --- not yet. <BR/><BR/>You said, "Peter's statement about Jesus being the Christ clearly kept some of the political dimensions of this, since he would later refuse to let Jesus die and try to instigate the political revolt by cutting off Malchus' ear. And Jesus' correction let them know that He was establishing his kingdom now (Lk. 9:27)."<BR/><BR/>I agree that Peter's confession was loaded with political overtones, but I think Jesus tried to correct his understanding of the kingdom. <BR/><BR/>As far as 9:27 goes, that's one of the most debated passages in all of the gospels. <BR/><BR/>A kingdom discussion could go on forever on this board, so let's not go there...thanks for the interaction!Dave Marriotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17872448688343944443noreply@blogger.com