tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post6349283586952026817..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Open Letter to George BarnaPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger103125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-29269885269470195862011-10-03T08:09:17.664-07:002011-10-03T08:09:17.664-07:00> I'll make a distinction that I'm not ...> I'll make a distinction that I'm not sure was clear in my first comment, and see if that affects your answer...When we say such things, they have to be judgments, not assumptions.<br /><br />Jugulum,<br /><br />I didn't catch the distinction initially, and it's an important one that I need to chew on. Thanks for clarifying.<br /><br />Daniel MeyerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51817563282898221812011-09-11T10:56:28.218-07:002011-09-11T10:56:28.218-07:00Hello. I took the photo you’ve taken and…er…beauti...Hello. I took the photo you’ve taken and…er…beautified above.<br /><br />You’re welcome to use and abuse it as much as you want, but please attribute the source: http://www.flickr.com/photos/danssordidandsundrypictures/2713832859/Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15135132533788934679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88219574451576300622011-09-11T10:52:36.673-07:002011-09-11T10:52:36.673-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15135132533788934679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46475503123243471082011-09-02T01:38:01.702-07:002011-09-02T01:38:01.702-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-71521026698265623192011-09-01T10:37:33.671-07:002011-09-01T10:37:33.671-07:00Frank, I think you've been listening to too mu...Frank, I think you've been listening to too much David Essex. ;)Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80668016900778092342011-09-01T09:45:55.666-07:002011-09-01T09:45:55.666-07:00Daniel,
I'll make a distinction that I'm ...Daniel,<br /><br />I'll make a distinction that I'm not sure was clear in my first comment, and see if that affects your answer.<br /><br />I absolutely agree with you that we need to learn to give and receive pointed, life-giving words, which will sometimes include "You're not willing to submit to God's sovereignty", and "You care more about flashy signs than God's word", and "You just want to avoid accountability to mature qualified leadership". Sometimes, it's apparent that those are indeed people's motivation, and love demands that we call them out on it. (Though we have to guard against pride & irritability in ourselves when we do it, and against making that judgment too quickly.)<br /><br />The problem in the examples I gave is that they're universal accusations, which Scripture doesn't justify. When we say such things, they have to be judgments, not assumptions.<br /><br />Unwillingness to submit to God's sovereignty will certainly prevent someone from accepting Calvinism--but it's not the only thing. So will "I haven't delved into the relevant passages", or "My traditions are twisting my interpretation; I haven't yet succeeded in setting aside my preconceived ideas," or "I've been fed bad information". (Someone from an Arminian background might be entirely <i>willing</i> to accept Calvinism, without having clearly seen the biblical testimony yet. God can give us humble hearts before he fixes our soteriological understanding.)<br /><br />On the house church issue, DJP handled it very well up above in his 6:13 AM, August 31, 2011 comment. He spoke pointed, convicting words, without presuming that the criticism univerally applies to all "house churches".<br /><br />We have to show discernment, and knee-jerk generalized accusations are anything but. That's how I read Challies criticism of Barna and Viola.Jugulumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09932658890162312549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-50370132667524736992011-09-01T05:54:33.332-07:002011-09-01T05:54:33.332-07:00>>An analogy would be "If you're no...>>An analogy would be "If you're not yet a Calvinist, you're not willing to submit to God's sovereignty", or...<br /><br />Jugulum,<br />Thanks for the examples. I'm less convinced than ever though. We need men making strong statements like this -- not baseless ones of course-- but if I make such a case and I've erred, is it not my rightful expectation that a brother will confront me and say, "You're wrong, brother, and here's why." How has my strong statement left no room for discussion, unless my brother is afraid to tell me I'm wrong? Why is he afraid? I only said what I did because the love of God compelled me to warn my brothers from the Scriptures--I don't like to look like a fool more than anyone else. If I've erred, what prevents him from stepping up to correct me?<br /><br />And if he can find no basis on which to correct me, he needs to consider the possibility that I've spoken the truth and that his fight may not be with me but with God's truth. How would I be serving the Lord and my brother better by toning down my assertions so that he was never forced to such a decision? Or what godly men through church history would we point to as our examples in this?<br /><br />No, we need to learn to be men, both in giving and receiving those pointed, life-giving words.<br /><br />Daniel MeyerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40395082171684454152011-09-01T05:08:40.558-07:002011-09-01T05:08:40.558-07:00Another excellent open letter, as usual from Centu...Another excellent open letter, as usual from Centurion.<br /><br />When someone comes by and says, "Barna says". then I say, "Barna Schmarna."<br /><br />Have a great weekend in our Lord's grace and joy, and enjoy our day off here in America.donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-29940534510523842692011-09-01T04:25:38.417-07:002011-09-01T04:25:38.417-07:00I think all churches should strive for the Z optio...I think all churches should strive for the Z option that Tom presented. The day that we need statistics to show us we're doing something wrong in the church is a sad day indeed. <br /><br />I also agree with Phillip about the perscipuity of Scripture. The problem isn't with clear instruction from Scripture, it is with our prideful assertion that we can make it better somehow.<br /><br />The really sad part about these polls is that they show a trend that has <b><i>already</i></b> occured in churches that are pretty much already lost. It will take a wholesale change in those churches to where they start teaching the Word to their whole congregation, <i>regardless of age</i>. I teach our 3 year olds-kindergarteners in a rotation on Wednesday nights and as I started to look through the curriculum to prepare for our slot in October, I saw that I'm going to have to change some of what it says. We're covering Daniel and this curriculum puts forth the idea that Daniel chose to eat vegetables and water because he knew that they would make him healthy and strong. The truth is that Daniel chose them because God had put restrictions on what His people could eat and he wanted to be faithful to God. It is small changes we make to the Word in order to "make sense of things" to the children that cause them to eventually leave the church. I mean, we're basically telling them that the explanation from Scripture isn't good enough. And how do we expect kids to react when they grow up and we tell them that the Bible is authoritative? That is a bit confusing to say the least. And I don't need a poll to tell me that.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48658005599142720752011-09-01T03:11:21.183-07:002011-09-01T03:11:21.183-07:00And I thought you were allowed to dance since you ...<i>And I thought you were allowed to dance since you aren't a Baptist and all.</i><br /><br />I most certainly <i><b>am</b></i> a Baptist!Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-28329483733240885032011-08-31T22:48:50.612-07:002011-08-31T22:48:50.612-07:00I’m glad you’ve exposed this.
So basically Barna...I’m glad you’ve exposed this. <br /><br />So basically Barna is a prophestician of doom and his findings are as useful as a one-legged man in a butt kicking competition.John Nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151182349424209838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12127703652068086732011-08-31T21:10:10.336-07:002011-08-31T21:10:10.336-07:00The Swayze was of course the star of Road House, w...The Swayze was of course the star of Road House, which might have won an Oscar for best documentary about bouncing. Goro's 4 arms plus Swayze's 2 and mad bouncing skillz = the 6-armed comment thread bouncer. And I thought you were allowed to dance since you aren't a Baptist and all.<br /><br />Forgive me, I've gotten maybe five hours of sleep since Saturday, these things made a lot more sense in my sleep-deprived mind.trogdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452996348717802065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13460882375621980282011-08-31T19:18:51.662-07:002011-08-31T19:18:51.662-07:00Chantry is basically Goro.
Frank? Ed? You can s...<i>Chantry is basically Goro.</i><br /><br />Frank? Ed? You can stop being offended now. At least you aren't demons with various extraneous limbs, which, from the link, I apparently am. Not getting how that relates to Swayze, unless it's that, just as you wouldn't want to see that Goro fellow do any "dirty" dancing, you probably wouldn't want to see <i><b>me</b></i> do any...<br /><br />...you know what? Never mind.Tom Chantryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485908616177111150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-60274932650380181372011-08-31T19:18:08.621-07:002011-08-31T19:18:08.621-07:00Christian surveys are worthless regardless of who ...Christian surveys are worthless regardless of who does them. How do you make a distinction between a real christian and someone who self identifies as a christian?boydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04578416298570988036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-43971720940651768062011-08-31T18:34:44.708-07:002011-08-31T18:34:44.708-07:00Two comments:
1. Aren't 85% of all statistic...Two comments:<br /><br />1. Aren't 85% of all statistics made up? (Was it Barna that stated that?)<br /><br />2. In reference to Tom & Matt's earlier discussion, wasn't it Barna that had a poll that stated youth are leaving the church in great numbers? And, wasn't there a more objective poll that said youth may leave for a short time as young singles, but come back in the same numbers that have left once they are young marrieds?<br /><br />In His service in Alaska,<br />"Cricket"Robert "Cricket" Rennerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00645961066827598110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-45509109134163475662011-08-31T18:33:16.349-07:002011-08-31T18:33:16.349-07:00OK: If I want to be offended by a smiley face, the...OK: If I want to be offended by a smiley face, then I'll rock on.<br /><br />:-DFX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-68792257526402423202011-08-31T18:00:50.313-07:002011-08-31T18:00:50.313-07:00A smiley face implies humor, not offense, Frank.
...A smiley face implies humor, not offense, Frank.<br /><br />EdEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319372150091950784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41482059645427045572011-08-31T17:34:16.881-07:002011-08-31T17:34:16.881-07:00Oh Ed: if you want to be offended because I said y...Oh Ed: if you want to be offended because I said you're not perfect but "much closer" to it than Barna, rock on.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-60200156925982854312011-08-31T16:29:21.877-07:002011-08-31T16:29:21.877-07:00I don't generally comment on Barna's resea...I don't generally comment on Barna's research for obvious reasons. However, I will treasure this in my heart, "Ed's a guy much closer to the center mark of Christian orthodoxy and orthopraxy."<br /><br />I've always wanted to be "closer" to orthodoxy. ;-)<br /><br />I am framing it for my wall.<br /><br />God bless,<br /><br />EdEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319372150091950784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-38491860314831977822011-08-31T16:09:49.777-07:002011-08-31T16:09:49.777-07:00Let's just think about the logic, here, let...Let's just think about the logic, here, let's just think about the logic. (name <i>that</i> movie!)<br /><br />This whole statistics bit is nothing more than an authority issue. I've not really read any of his material directly, but I gather that the statistics that Barna are compiling come primarily from polling people and lumping their responses together to try to determine trends in the church. When all of that is said and done, do you really end up with anything more than just group think?<br /><br />So either the revealed word of God is the true seat of authority or something else is. This attack is nothing at all new and the Pyros have been addressing it head on (this time around, at least) for well over a week.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18148400764209528086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-42271536331797614012011-08-31T16:07:51.191-07:002011-08-31T16:07:51.191-07:00Chantry is basically Goro. Whenever I read an arti...Chantry is basically <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goro_(Mortal_Kombat)" rel="nofollow">Goro</a>. Whenever I read an article and the first comments, think I have a good idea, but get delayed in posting, I inevitably come back to find that Chantry has Hulk-smashed the same points I was planning to make, and he's done it far better.<br /><br />For this thread, I had planned to address:<br />A) The difference between "church that meets in a house" and the "house church" movement<br />B) The chicken/egg conundrum of Barna's research and his anti-biblical ecclesiology<br /><br />Sho'nuff, by the time I got back here, both were addressed. Patrick Swayze had nothing on Chantry.trogdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452996348717802065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2967084057717816922011-08-31T15:57:34.600-07:002011-08-31T15:57:34.600-07:00Mr Turk,
Right on the "money" here too!I...Mr Turk,<br />Right on the "money" here too!I just published a piece yesterday showing one Barna's partner in Pagan as well. I had no idea you were posting this.<br /><br />John Beardsley, BDM<br />http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/NotReturnedVoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18336054151263047985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69583024113674636682011-08-31T15:45:57.162-07:002011-08-31T15:45:57.162-07:00I don't remember a time in my life when I was ...I don't remember a time in my life when I was anything else but a cessationist yet the more I read, study, and memorize God's word the more I realize how much I just don't know. Perhaps that's a good part of the reason why I've remained that way, but more likely its just the grace of God. On the other hand, the perspicuity of the word seems so obvious that one has to wonder why so much of this has to be rehashed so often. <br /><br />If the imperative is to preach the word - in season and out - then, obviously, what value are statistics in determining what words to preach?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18148400764209528086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58726110460760476782011-08-31T15:41:05.225-07:002011-08-31T15:41:05.225-07:00Tom,
Do I hear you saying that in essence this bo...Tom,<br /><br />Do I hear you saying that in essence this boils down to the church simply knowing and doing the will of God which is already recorded for us in the revealed word - itself being both accurate and complete? That we don't need anything outside of that to buttress, supplement, or replace what we already know is the revealed will of God? That the Bible alone is where we learn how to love and obey God? That new revelation of God has ceased and that statistics are about as useful as hunches, premonitions, coincidences, personal thoughts and experiences, intuition, and a whole host of other nonsensical errors are in determining the will of God not just at a personal level but also at the ecclesiatical level?<br /><br />Is that what I hear you saying? Because it sounds awefully familiar.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18148400764209528086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39115777572363668882011-08-31T15:31:37.460-07:002011-08-31T15:31:37.460-07:00For a high-profile example of ignoring biblical ex...For a high-profile example of ignoring biblical exhortations (for decades) and relying on surveys/stats, see <a href="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2007/10/still-not-clear-on-concept.html" rel="nofollow">Willow Creek's 'repentance'</a>. To borrow the earlier illustration, they spent years as a hybrid of X and Y, and 'repented' by saying they'd lean more towards Y (if the surveys said to). Why not just be Z and do what the Bible says the church must do?trogdorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452996348717802065noreply@blogger.com