tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post6410558404208005251..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Evil pragmatism vs. the Christian's right focusPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86662653930541350812010-07-24T09:27:21.378-07:002010-07-24T09:27:21.378-07:00Right on, Chris. It's an "evidently not&q...Right on, Chris. It's an <a href="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2010/01/having-and-heeding-teachers-guide.html" rel="nofollow">"evidently not"</a> moment, where Scripture corrects our fuzzy math.<br /><br />That is, we say "If folks grasp the truth and the glorious centrality of God correctly, shouldn't the application simply in intuitive to them?" Then we look at the prophets, apostles, and Christ, and say "Evidently not."DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8027502104652174292010-07-24T09:14:42.951-07:002010-07-24T09:14:42.951-07:00I’m rather green in ministry and I am in the midst...I’m rather green in ministry and I am in the midst of a church plant. Like Bill, I used to believe "if you teach expositionally through books of the Bible, your people will learn doctrine, they will learn the will of God, and they will be transformed by the renewing of their minds (provided they are believers). Won't they find application based on their firmer grasp of doctrine?" Sadly, I wish scripture had been my first teacher in this area i.e. because if I had looked closely I would've have seen, as DJP has stated, that "The prophets, the apostles and Christ got into the nitty-gritty of working it out." Experience has taught me that for whatever reason MOST people don’t make the connection. They don’t see the practical implications of doctrine. It has to be specifically spelled out for them. After about four years I’ve only recently begin changing my preaching by devoting more time to specific application.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09045435425352838499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22348980812960546142010-07-21T09:31:06.276-07:002010-07-21T09:31:06.276-07:00I've pondered this, particularly how to balanc...I've pondered this, particularly how to balance practicality with what seems a relative lack of practicality in much of the Christian's life. Take the use of money, for example. We know that it is God who blesses, but we need to be good stewards nonetheless. We tend to get focused on how it is that we obtain the resources from God to accomplish our purposes in his name. So we think the balance to accomplishing this goal is between our activities and our reliance on God. The problem is that such a goal is wrongheaded. Our goal must be to be faithful regardless of our apparent practical success otherwise. God will bless or deny according to his purposes. So if we make faithful decisions regarding the stewardship of God's blessing then we have met our goal whether he has provided or not for the plans we made. And in the end we glorify him.<br /><br />I think of Jim Elliot and the rest of the men who were killed in Ecuador. Their deaths were not impractical, but it may seem so to us. How hard had they trained and how many resources expended so they could go down there and be killed in short order? Yet their deaths paved the way for the gospel to be taken to the Indians who killed them. What expense is practical for the gospel?<br /><br />We had a team in Dearborn when the other group was arrested. Our team was no less faithful if not a bit more stealthy (many Muslims who are honestly interested in the gospel shy away from cameras). Their team perhaps had a good purpose with their strategy. Ours did as well. The two teams saw different results. One was arrested and the other saw a few come to Christ. But both contributed positively to the proclamation of the gospel in different ways on different fronts.<br /><br />Is it practical for the Jews to be blind to the Messiah who has come? Yet Paul indicates that God has a practical purpose for their infidelity in Romans 11.<br /><br />So God is faithful to accomplish all that he has promised. Many things may not seem practical to us, but in the end the practicality of God's actions will be revealed.Jim Pembertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01446388434272680014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89803086887923364032010-07-21T07:59:54.408-07:002010-07-21T07:59:54.408-07:00Dan,
"To state the obvious: the point of the...Dan,<br /><br />"To state the obvious: the point of the orange man is not to teach Christians how to listen to sermons, but to teach pastors what to consider in preparing and delivering them."<br /><br />Ahh...had I simply read your post a bit closer, or perhaps without my preconceptions, I would have seen the obvious and saved myself (and others) at least a few precious minutes of the day--which would have been a good, pragmatic decision of my part (c:Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01930864320573865515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21222641755121993292010-07-21T06:26:13.043-07:002010-07-21T06:26:13.043-07:00To state the obvious: the point of the orange man ...To state the obvious: the point of the orange man is not to teach Christians how to listen to sermons, but to teach pastors what to consider in preparing and delivering them.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62105962838381079722010-07-21T06:19:41.606-07:002010-07-21T06:19:41.606-07:00Hayden, No I wouldn't say that the person who ...Hayden, No I wouldn't say that the person who asks "how" is sinning, it's good to take practical advice from sermons.<br /><br />On the other hand, if we take the example from Dan's post about the individual who *only* asks "tell me how", then I think we may be moving onto a different beast altogether. <br /><br />Like I said, the answers to many 'how' questions can be answered by asking yourself what brings the most glory to God - and then doing that.<br /><br />However, some people like to create lists - 10 ways to have a better marriage, 5 things to do to love your neighbor better, etc. I think that if you get a person who wants 'how to' lists, then you can run the danger of a works-type theology. What can I *do*? And I think that if the focus is on that - what I can do - instead of on what brings glory to God, then we are missing the point. *He* must become greater, *I* must become less.templeHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09029463071358548511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-17181326788679629112010-07-21T06:18:55.982-07:002010-07-21T06:18:55.982-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.templeHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09029463071358548511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-35799041031219390002010-07-21T05:15:48.515-07:002010-07-21T05:15:48.515-07:00DJP,
Thanks for the excellent post. I think that...DJP,<br /><br />Thanks for the excellent post. I think that any good expositor will not only bring the meaning and context of the Scripture to the congregation, but will also lead and exhort them as to how to apply the text. <br /><br />I remember a sermon from Amos where the sermon went from God's hatred of the hypocrisy of the Jewish people to how we today should all exemplify Christian love towards our family (nuclear and church) and always living with the fear of God. <br /><br />I think that is the difference between a teacher and a preacher/pastor. A teacher can tell you what a text means, but an effective pastor/preacher will care for you by showing you how to apply the meaning of the text in your own life.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987985549747283669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89411662084362800542010-07-20T21:30:02.616-07:002010-07-20T21:30:02.616-07:00Doing what pleases God may be the direct cause of ...<i> Doing what pleases God may be the <b>direct cause</b> of temporal disaster.</i><br /><br />A key nugget that probably doesn't get enough airtime from the pulpit. Great examples given of obedience not ending up in a temporal blessing, which serve as a nice refute to the "I obeyed God so how could He possibly allow <i>(fill in the blank)</i> in my life" mentality.one busy momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18087795055010641099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82783372359181395612010-07-20T19:05:44.974-07:002010-07-20T19:05:44.974-07:00Sorry. Your 5:56 AM post in response to Mike... an...Sorry. Your 5:56 AM post in response to Mike... and I was being sarcastic :) I thought it was funny.Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07461207633998769977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53655756904560626352010-07-20T18:19:05.051-07:002010-07-20T18:19:05.051-07:00Where did that come from?Where did that come from?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82346388375980804092010-07-20T17:58:17.918-07:002010-07-20T17:58:17.918-07:00"I don't have any problem with topical se..."I don't have any problem with topical sermons if they are textually-rich expositions of Biblical teaching on that topic."<br /><br />By "textually-rich" do you mean "the more bible translations used, the merrier?" ;)<br /><br />RayRayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07461207633998769977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-41849126411162873682010-07-20T17:53:39.090-07:002010-07-20T17:53:39.090-07:00As I've gone about my day today, I've been...As I've gone about my day today, I've been pondering what this post had to do with the <em>Christian Right</em> (Ralph Reed, James Dobson, et al). Sigh...Eats shoots and leaves....<br /><br />Good word DJP! Our pastor has been preaching through 1 Corinthians and Daniel and while 1 Corinthians is oozing with practical advice built right into the text, Daniel is a bit more subtle. Still, a good expositor (which my pastor surely is) will find practical application along the journey without having to be a slave to the topical themes. <br /><br />Our pastor did take a one week hiatus from 1 Corinthians the week of Mother's day, finding himself right smack in the middle of the incest passage that week. That was perhaps not the right message for the occasion : )(I did wonder if he was secretly sporting a Hawaiian shirt under his suit due to the topical nature of that day's message!)Paula Bolyardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05567777774272590296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12183806646633382042010-07-20T17:01:41.852-07:002010-07-20T17:01:41.852-07:00I'm with Rachael on this one. It seems to me t...I'm with Rachael on this one. It seems to me that for the most part, whenever Paul is giving practical instructions to whatever church he's writing to, he winds up pointing his readers back to who Jesus is, what He has done and is doing, and reminding us that this is the image that we are being transformed into and can therefore give our all for - so that the more we truly <i>know</i> the One True God and His only Son, Jesus Christ (the very definition of eternal life, according to Jesus in Jn 17)and submit ourselves as living sacrifices, wholly consumed for His glory (Romans 12:1-2), the more we can discern what is His will and what is good and acceptable and perfect. <br /><br />But it takes time to know Him more, especially for a young convert who is having to have four decades of error scourged off of her, so that these new truths and instructions naturally come with the question, "How?" and "What does that mean, exactly?" and probably (hopefully) there will always be something else that I come across in Scripture that instructs me to do something that I don't really know how to do right away - so I ask my Father to teach me. <br /><br />And He always teaches me - in His word and through the skillful exposition and pastorly advice of the one whose undershepherding He has seen fit to place me under. But it took me time to learn that, too. Now I can trust my Father because He has proved faithful to His promise to lead us into truth and to guide and keep us, because by His grace I know Him more.<br /><br />As I read this thread, one glorious verse comes to mind here -2 Corinthians 4:7. Praise God for it.Barbarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604068110452745043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54206757508324709612010-07-20T16:09:29.331-07:002010-07-20T16:09:29.331-07:00"The instruments are your only friend."
..."The instruments are your only friend."<br /><br />Amen to that!Herding Grasshoppershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15668974245505544238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62193206367292862372010-07-20T16:02:55.479-07:002010-07-20T16:02:55.479-07:00But still...you do not tell how. Finding the how w...But still...you do not tell how. Finding the how will change your life and your faith for the better.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34151137150093226352010-07-20T14:30:52.017-07:002010-07-20T14:30:52.017-07:00Now I have to post a second comment so I can get f...Now I have to post a second comment so I can get follow up comments sent to my e-mail. And the word verification is "leses"<br /><br />As in: leses more.<br /><br />(I'm going to clean my room now!)Merrilee Stevensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12770625841767761025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33311476505019086122010-07-20T14:29:21.819-07:002010-07-20T14:29:21.819-07:00Frustrated because I had a couple of witty and pro...Frustrated because I had a couple of witty and profound things to say and lost 'em. More than once. But I did manage to copy and paste before losing a little one:<br /><br />And the "tell me how" is important; as equally important as the "show me how." Parents and pastors alike know that things are caught, not just taught. I know for a fact that I can do a fine job explaining to my kids that their room is a mess that they need to clean up, and then send them off to do the job, and they will likely do a mediocre job of it on their own, but a much better job with me helping them, and showing them, especially if I'm good at it myself. What's worse is when my room is a bigger mess than theirs, and...well now we're getting a bit personal, aren't we?Merrilee Stevensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12770625841767761025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-42531776906192836742010-07-20T14:17:54.624-07:002010-07-20T14:17:54.624-07:00He also told them parables so that they would seek...He also told them parables so that they would seek out the answers which is why he told the disciples the interpretation of some of the more famous ones. Parables have many functions. Harden some, and prick some. All from the same message. Sounds like a normal Sunday to me :)Haydenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01256518337951573331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72679295698484517132010-07-20T14:05:44.319-07:002010-07-20T14:05:44.319-07:00Agree with your last two sentences, Rob.
But, to ...Agree with your last two sentences, Rob.<br /><br />But, to the rest: "we" aren't "they." The church is not judicially-hardened Israel.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53202345962166198352010-07-20T14:02:46.448-07:002010-07-20T14:02:46.448-07:00I know much ink has been spilled on the subject, b...I know much ink has been spilled on the subject, but to take the conversation to WWJD; why did he speak in parables? Matthew 13 says it is so they won't understand. They will not get it, and it is not just because they are depraved, but because the message is encrypted. Even in Isaiah, God commissions Isaiah to preach to a people that God knows will not receive his Word. I'm not saying to try to confuse people. This is a question that has always bothered me to a certain degree. "Invite them to church!" But, church is for those that believe.Rob Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10893938431904825170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33923144768051582252010-07-20T13:37:44.670-07:002010-07-20T13:37:44.670-07:00(TO be clear, I understand your pint about pragmat...(TO be clear, I understand your pint about pragmatism too, it's just that to constantly hear the same exhortation with no tips on how to actually carry it out was and is frustrating!)~Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01819856178499938127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32095111695948580562010-07-20T13:36:24.340-07:002010-07-20T13:36:24.340-07:00One of my biggest frustrations with some of the be...One of my biggest frustrations with some of the best teachers is the common circumstance of saying to do something but rarely saying how to do it! <br /><br />For example, for the first several years of my salvation I'd hear radio preachers (the good ones even) say "Wait on God" and I found myself on occasion yelling back at the radio "How? HOW??"<br /><br />Thanks for the mental image DJP, I'll try to remember it. :)~Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01819856178499938127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-42366513182464923712010-07-20T13:12:17.983-07:002010-07-20T13:12:17.983-07:00It's a certainty.
There are even PB allusions...It's a certainty.<br /><br />There are even PB allusions in my Kregel ms.<br /><br />If, you know, They don't edit them out, to save me from myself.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-57465776327540299892010-07-20T13:07:33.675-07:002010-07-20T13:07:33.675-07:00:) Thought you'd like that.:) Thought you'd like that.Rachael Starkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10781158372237369417noreply@blogger.com