tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post6504961156349517998..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Small Handles for the KidsPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-37790866964895403272010-07-17T17:39:10.427-07:002010-07-17T17:39:10.427-07:00" No less than the creation, Scripture’s huma..." No less than the creation, Scripture’s human authors, and the book that they wrote, stands in need of redemption."<br /><br />Why even bother to pretend? Everyone come over to my house, we will watch "The Last Temptation of Christ," curse the apostle Paul, and burn Genesis 1-3.Rob Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10893938431904825170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80003635433787533182010-07-17T06:41:58.955-07:002010-07-17T06:41:58.955-07:00You're incorrect in the placement of your com...You're incorrect in the placement of your comment and, I think, in your reading of Sparks. From the article I linked to:<br /><br />"And now my main point in this part of the paper. Just as we can maintain the created order is God’s good creation warped by the fall, in a similar way we can maintain that Scripture — given through and to a fallen world through fallen men — is both beautiful and broken. No less than the creation, Scripture’s human authors, and the book that they wrote, stands in need of redemption.<br /><br />...Scripture is a casualty of the fallen cosmos. I have adduced evidence for this assertion by highlighting numerous tensions and contradictions in the Bible, including ethical tensions...."<br /><br />Your talk about Jesus is very nice, as long as one immediately snaps in the undeniable truth that Jesus regarded the OT retrospectively, and His and His apostles' teaching prospectively, as true, sufficient, without error in all that they affirm, and wholly without need of human improvement of any sort.<br /><br />Without that, nice talk about Jesus is just nice talk about "Jesus" — not the real Jesus.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-35589001077007771652010-07-16T15:32:10.106-07:002010-07-16T15:32:10.106-07:00I think you have misunderstood Professor Sparks in...I think you have misunderstood Professor Sparks in his BioLogos article. He does not propose that he is the one to "redeem scripture," but says that "redemption . . . is accomplished by the death, burial, resurrection, ascension and return of our savior, Jesus Christ." See http://www.biologos.org/blog/after-inerrancy-evangelicals-and-the-bible-in-a-postmodern-age-part-5<br /><br />His examples from the Sermon on the Mount of specific cases in which Jesus corrected (redeemed) teachings of Moses show Christ redeeming scripture. <br /><br />I think everything in the Bible must be read in terms of the person of Jesus Christ just as everything in our lives should be subject to the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus treated women as persons of worth and didn't distinguish between their gifts and value and those of men, so I don't think I should do so either. Jesus is my Savior and my role model. If anything in scripture appears to contradict the person of Jesus Christ, I feel that I must ask God for wisdom, rely on the Holy Spirit, and always be true to the person of Christ.<br /><br />Love in Christ and for ChristUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14493884368806603176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33379776412698111562010-07-14T18:19:11.413-07:002010-07-14T18:19:11.413-07:00http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.htmlhttp://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.htmlRob Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10893938431904825170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-782143295929260542010-07-14T18:00:01.935-07:002010-07-14T18:00:01.935-07:00Are you a Control Agent, perhaps?
Oh. Wow.
That ...<i>Are you a Control Agent, perhaps?</i><br /><br />Oh. Wow.<br /><br />That makes <i>so</i> much sense on so many levels.Rachael Starkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10781158372237369417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53351942156714929082010-07-14T17:18:49.732-07:002010-07-14T17:18:49.732-07:00Frank,
I agree the Bible does not need to be &quo...<strong>Frank</strong>,<br /><br />I agree the Bible does not need to be "defended," per se; at least when we are doing exegesis. Unfortunately this has so often characterized the way us "Evangelicals" have approached the text and our exegesis (through an apologetic lens). <br /><br />Scripture is literature; made up of 3 different *Types* 7 different *Genres* and multiple different *Forms*. Pay attention to these carefully, and we get to see Jesus in all His beauty and splendor (Jn 5:39).<br /><br /><em>~Bobby Grow</em>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53969751339876234372010-07-14T15:32:15.775-07:002010-07-14T15:32:15.775-07:00"I used to work for a greeting card company&q..."I used to work for a greeting card company" -Cent<br /><br />Hey, that's what Maxwell Smart did: (But not really).<br />Are you a Control Agent, perhaps?donsandshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03665794015011057098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53786404783561231982010-07-14T14:50:15.181-07:002010-07-14T14:50:15.181-07:00it is nice, cold well water.it is nice, cold well water.Rob Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10893938431904825170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-29289109044355628392010-07-14T13:29:43.881-07:002010-07-14T13:29:43.881-07:00Oh, and Frank, I have almost moved up to the Dixie...Oh, and Frank, I have almost moved up to the Dixie cup from the thimble.Rob Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10893938431904825170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-59925240799740808262010-07-14T13:18:43.304-07:002010-07-14T13:18:43.304-07:00Missing the blog for a few hours, then reading som...Missing the blog for a few hours, then reading some of the comments I am having trouble keeping my lunch down. I Cor 15:19 "If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied." Why even worry about it at all, except as a intellectual exercise, if you do not think it means what it says? It is a great narrative, it is a fantastic historical account, it is great poetry, it is great philosophy, it is instructionally sound for daily living. But it is also inspired, accurate, inerrant, and Holy. When you jack around with stupid definitions of backwards, hermeneutical gymnastic moves to come up with some kind of "reading" that suits your world, you are on very dangerous ground. And it REALLY makes me angry. In John 1, Jesus is called "The Word," when you pervert the Scripture you are perverting the very understanding of the nature of God. Come on you fly weight Philistines, Humble yourselves to His Word! The kind of thinking that says I can interpret Scripture anyway I want is nauseating. So sick of it.Rob Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10893938431904825170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-68908333643972811302010-07-14T12:22:46.328-07:002010-07-14T12:22:46.328-07:00Daryl:
Aha. That's what I thought you said.
...Daryl:<br /><br />Aha. That's what I thought you said.<br /><br />I admit it: it -is- what the more-liberal sometimes say. The problem is that this claim doesn't hold up under scrutiny for 5 minutes.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-83857169399290433432010-07-14T12:21:29.220-07:002010-07-14T12:21:29.220-07:00I used to work for a greetiung card company, so yo...I used to work for a greetiung card company, so you can imagine that I'm really good at the two-sentence sprint.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79450238110201032212010-07-14T11:53:36.018-07:002010-07-14T11:53:36.018-07:00"The Bible is a beautiful thing, and in that ..."The Bible is a beautiful thing, and in that it has all the attributes of beauty: simplicity and complexity, accessibility and incomprehensibility, small handles that even a kid can grasp but massive weight that grown men will strain at to carry."<br /><br />THAT is going on a note card and onto my wall at work. Holy crap, Frank, that is gorgeous.Weekshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17796554067836900146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54661265834772350302010-07-14T11:36:23.135-07:002010-07-14T11:36:23.135-07:00Frank,
What I meant was how often have we heard t...Frank,<br /><br />What I meant was how often have we heard that the Bible is to be understood as a narrative, in the way that ancients understood narratives, and so we need, somehow, to understand that those old guys never would've read the Bible to mean real events in real time (like Creation and floating axe-heads) and so we need to not think that way either.<br /><br />Which is to say, I've read your very argument before, given by more liberal thinking people, as a reason to not believe that the Bible actually means what it actually says.<br /><br />That's all.<br /><br />I liked what you wrote, I've just in times past I've heard "it's a beautiful book, don't try to make it all about truth and real events."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21436760382204620402010-07-14T11:30:21.410-07:002010-07-14T11:30:21.410-07:00My 3 cents: I think the Bible "works" ju...My 3 cents: I think the Bible "works" just fine on a "casual" level for a person who is at that level but willing to approach the text with humility. There are things to be received at that level of approach. But we can never put away that humility, especially as we seek to understand clearly the implications of the complexities of the Bible. The thing is, the Bible is not history in the modern sense of the term, and neither is anything else written at that time except for a few things, like the writings of Josephus, that were just starting to align happenings and ideas into what we think of as modern history. The New Testament, and I would argue that the Bible as a whole, is a witness based argument that the God of Israel was and is the One True God, and that this God would and finally did provide a Messiah and that Jesus is that Messiah. It is historical in the sense that the witnesses of the text were real people in history writing about what was really happening to them (or, as some others might say, what they "believed" was happening to them). The Bible shows through history (though not specifically as modern history) how God worked through time to bring about this provision. The Bible should be treated as a gathering of these witness documents FROM history (and, from my perspective, as divinely inspired). Historical, but not necessarily history in the modern sense of the word. We like to use the word "stories," but the word "accounts" is more fitting to my way of thinking. And we have to be careful not to backwards read modern or simplistic notions of genre into the genre, etc, of the Bible. When it comes to genre, we have to be careful because, for instance, the Psalms are not just "poems" or "poetry." They are ancient Semitic poetry/verse/liturgical hymns, songs, etc. - I don't think having a deeper understanding of the complexities of the Bible requires massive intelligence, but it does require humility, patience and commitment over time. -- okay. I'll stop now. But this is a good discussion. Great blog here.OneBigHappyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07993848597406708478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55628661355525735532010-07-14T11:18:50.863-07:002010-07-14T11:18:50.863-07:00Frank,
Great title. It made me chuckle after rea...Frank,<br /><br />Great title. It made me chuckle after reading your post. I read the book of Proverbs every day to my kids over breakfast, and we talk about "what stood out to me" or "what was my favorite part." The older they get, the more interesting the conversation gets, and it is a beautiful thing. It motivated me to look up Matthew 18:1-7. (I was just thinking of verse 3, but read them all together, and wowe! Beautiful and brutal at the same time.)Merrilee Stevensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12770625841767761025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13067076542257837162010-07-14T10:39:10.408-07:002010-07-14T10:39:10.408-07:00Jeff, I believe that God wants us to be casual re...Jeff, I believe that God wants us to be casual readers of His Word, when "casual" is defined as "suited for everyday wear or use". I know what you are saying.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-68177360931802978102010-07-14T10:13:53.891-07:002010-07-14T10:13:53.891-07:00Daryl --
um. What?Daryl --<br /><br />um. What?FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-11628650268321964522010-07-14T09:54:14.937-07:002010-07-14T09:54:14.937-07:00Modernism tries to define the Bible down. Postmode...Modernism tries to define the Bible down. Postmodernism tries to define up from what modernism defined down.<br /><br />Neither of them heard the story, I don't think.David Regierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09766862583586784668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-70641567555502190302010-07-14T08:39:10.079-07:002010-07-14T08:39:10.079-07:00I'd just add to this, that it is an unbelievab...I'd just add to this, that it is an unbelievably arrogant thing to say (as many do) that this thing Frank is talking about is true, and if only those simpleton ancients understood this, they would never have taken Genesis 1-3, Jonah being in the fish's belly for 3 days and Elisha making an axehead float, as real events.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1320464124218653452010-07-14T08:30:39.591-07:002010-07-14T08:30:39.591-07:00Unless you start talking about something not relat...Unless you start talking about something not related to how to read like a human being, you will not be derailing the meta.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-70044721308005700412010-07-14T08:00:47.475-07:002010-07-14T08:00:47.475-07:00This raises all sorts of issues that could derail ...This raises all sorts of issues that could derail a meta, so I just want to say, "Bravo", while I chew it over some more.100 Mile Pantshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04934805873293163004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-51934741187000826122010-07-14T07:50:12.136-07:002010-07-14T07:50:12.136-07:00Jeff --
um.
Here's what I would say instead ...Jeff --<br /><br />um.<br /><br />Here's what I would say instead to make the point I think you're trying to make:<br /><br />God is the creator and sustainer of both math and poetry, both music and bird chirping (which are not the same thing), both the physical laws of the universe and the very notion of relationships between people both divine and not divine. So in that, God is great -- and we need to look for God's greatness rather than only receiving God in the little tiny thimbles we have in our own epistemological cupboards.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72302954836679378782010-07-14T07:10:08.283-07:002010-07-14T07:10:08.283-07:00Well said, my man. And I echo my boy, DJP. Supre...Well said, my man. And I echo my boy, DJP. Supremely logical indeed.lawrencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02269079315500219992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89302388925960629462010-07-14T06:07:13.862-07:002010-07-14T06:07:13.862-07:00Jeff wrote:
"God is not bounded by logic or ...Jeff wrote:<br /><br />"God is not bounded by logic or the laws of nature as we are."<br /><br />Don't get ahead of yourself there, Jeff. God is supremely logical.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10934379903548711286noreply@blogger.com