tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post6633852516036708008..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: More pix of where I was, right back thenPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-76430698674042940612007-10-01T07:57:00.000-07:002007-10-01T07:57:00.000-07:00I lecture my sons on MY style of environmentalism ...I lecture my sons on MY style of environmentalism every time we see some idiot's beer can sparkling up at us from the bottom of a crystalline lake. I tell them that, barring intervention, that beer can will be there until Jesus comes back. Also pretty unsparing about every idiot who can't find the strength to carry out his own potato chip bag, or plastic items.<BR/><BR/>They seem to be growing up to share my attitude about that; and that's a good thing.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-69415488647718864372007-10-01T06:00:00.000-07:002007-10-01T06:00:00.000-07:00Good points Mr. Meanie,It is difficult to avoid th...Good points Mr. Meanie,<BR/><BR/>It is difficult to avoid throwing your hands in the air (now there's a visual...) and saying forget all of you "I'll put all my junk in the landfill anyways". Sometimes I think we're all better of completely ignoring all the Envior-blather and figuring out stewardship on our own. It's just too easy to get caught up in the "HELP WE'RE KILLING THE PLANET" hype otherwise.<BR/><BR/>Great pic's Dan. Your're making me miss the mountains.Darylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01296029404229769941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26162636784157016732007-09-30T08:16:00.000-07:002007-09-30T08:16:00.000-07:00I am all for being a good steward of God's creatio...I am all for being a good steward of God's creation, but if that means joining hands in worship of Earth Mother Gaia, count me out. <BR/><BR/>That's the problem with today's environmentalism -- many of the people who push it are using it as a tool to accomplish another agenda. One agenda is spiritual and linked with Eastern mysticism, and the other is political. They never met a radical, socialist solution they didn't like. To the former, the planet would be better off if millions of people would die. To the latter, an environmental panic is just the next crisis du jour to increase governmental control. <BR/><BR/>Actually, there's a third element to this also. Well meaning Christians get caught up in issues like this at the expense of the Gospel. The same thing can happen with politics. No one is saying not to be concerned with the environment, and no one is saying not to be involved as good citizens on a political level. But these issues cannot be allowed to consume our attention to the point where the Gospel is downgraded in importance. If you change hearts and lives through the power of the Gospel, you'd be amazed at the ripple effects in society.Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79178946520328849552007-09-29T08:49:00.000-07:002007-09-29T08:49:00.000-07:00...to your last comment....to your last comment.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2017289005861191262007-09-29T08:48:00.000-07:002007-09-29T08:48:00.000-07:00Dan: Wow.Dan: Wow.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-6419131130121514922007-09-29T08:04:00.000-07:002007-09-29T08:04:00.000-07:00That's a great direction, too, Dan! These are grea...That's a great direction, too, Dan! These are great meditations...Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46110748394674885742007-09-29T07:58:00.000-07:002007-09-29T07:58:00.000-07:00I went kind of a different direction with your ori...I went kind of a different direction with your original comment, I think, Mike.<BR/><BR/>I was thinking that, if this is creation still subjected to bondage, and groaning and travailing — and even so, it is so glorious, and so glorifies God... what is redeemed creation going to be like? Overwhelming.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27083790528506417302007-09-29T07:46:00.000-07:002007-09-29T07:46:00.000-07:00I don't think that doing a job that God commands u...<I>I don't think that doing a job that God commands us to do is "man-centeredness."</I><BR/><BR/><I>while there is a lack of a clear call to "restore," creation...</I><BR/><BR/>God commands us to do it, but without a clear call. If you're going to say that God commands us to do something, I think you should show me that command.<BR/><BR/><I>What can we possibly do? I think we both know the answers, but if you really need some suggestions on how we can be good stewards, let me know.</I><BR/><BR/>Being good stewards and restoring the creation are two entirely different things.<BR/><BR/><I>Please note, I already answered your concerns about the "victimhood" of creation, </I><BR/><BR/>LoL. No you didn't. You made the statement that creation was a victim of our sin. I think I demonstrated how it is improper to say that creation is a victim of our sin, thereby <I>at least</I> implying that I didn't buy your 'answers to my concerns.' I don't know if I've ever replied to an argument I saw was lacking, and have the person reply by telling me that the actual argument I'm seeing as lacking is a sufficient answer.<BR/><BR/><I>and that while there is a lack of a clear call to "restore," creation, it is implied in the fact that<BR/><BR/>a. we care called to be stewards, and</I><BR/><BR/>This would be insufficient to make that leap without any other aid. That's why you say, "and..."<BR/><BR/><I>b. we've done damage, </I><BR/><BR/>This is begging the question Drew. This is the point of contention. You have to prove this, not just assume it. It's been my contention that Adam's fall didn't victimize the creation anymore than Adam's fall victimized me.<BR/><BR/>The last point didn't contribute to the "implied command." It was just a stipulation. So as far as I see it, you've got that we're stewards, and that's it.<BR/><BR/><I>I still believe that creations' problems are a result of our sin. No human fall, no curse, right? Of course the curse came from God, but it came as a result of our choices.<BR/><BR/>Of course, this makes God reactionary, which is a problem for reformed folk like me, but its not the only time that God seems to react to human action in the Bible.</I><BR/><BR/>You refuted your own argument at least twice there. You make God reactionary, but dismiss it because of what <I>seems</I> to be? <BR/><BR/>We're reaching another impasse, Drew. You and I seem to be quite good at that. Personally, I think we owe that to ignoring definitions and making assumptions when things need to be proven.<BR/><BR/>This entire conversation is ridiculous, considering Dan's post and even considering my first comment. Add that to the fact that you refuse to make the argument for your position, and that you remain inconsistent with your own self-confessed reformed theology, and this is going nowhere fast. <BR/><BR/>I apologize, Dan, for spawning this. It certainly was not my intention. I was trying to enjoy creation with you. But in my own pride I have gone from the desire to make much of God by an observation of the beauty of creation to trying to prove a point. I seem to be the king of getting off topic.Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47101172775553828712007-09-29T06:55:00.000-07:002007-09-29T06:55:00.000-07:00Mike: What can man possibly do to restore the dama...Mike: <I>What can man possibly do to restore the damage we've done to the creation? Drew, this sounds like more man-centeredness to me. </I><BR/><BR/>I don't think that doing a job that God commands us to do is "man-centeredness."<BR/><BR/>What can we possilby do? I think we both know the answers, but if you really need some suggestions on how we can be good stewards, let me know.<BR/><BR/>Please note, I already answered your concerns about the "victimhood" of creation, and that thile there is a lack of a clear call to "restore," creation, it is implied in the fact that<BR/><BR/>a. we care called to be stewards, and <BR/><BR/>b. we've done damgage, with the caveat that,<BR/><BR/>c. Only by the grace of God can we participate in said work, and only in the fullness of time will it be completed, not by us, but by God.<BR/><BR/>Overall, Dan has already said it pretty darn well (a stand-up triple, right?--I'm a Pirate fan, so I am not used to such things)<BR/><BR/>I still believe that creations' problems ("suffering" might be a bad word because of the anthropomorphizing tendancy of it) are a result of our sin. No human fall, no curse, right? Of course the curse came from God, but it came as a result of our choices.<BR/><BR/>Of course, this makes God reactionary, which is a problem for reformed folk like me, but its not the only time that God seems to react to human action in the Bible.Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08284171572883616668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-36707001589150049922007-09-28T22:05:00.000-07:002007-09-28T22:05:00.000-07:00Dan. Actually a friend and I were going to hike so...Dan. Actually a friend and I were going to hike sorta down that way, more towards Bridgeport, but guess what it is doing tonight? Snowing! Yep. <BR/><BR/>Love the photo of the lake.candyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088593538648596769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54016680347240059612007-09-28T20:24:00.000-07:002007-09-28T20:24:00.000-07:00This is WAY off topic, but I couldn't resist.Phil,...This is WAY off topic, but I couldn't resist.<BR/><BR/>Phil, it's great to see my Padres helped your Cubs to clich their division title tonight.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00499447751220981083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-25885759351575046132007-09-28T20:11:00.000-07:002007-09-28T20:11:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00499447751220981083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16497667416650135242007-09-28T20:10:00.000-07:002007-09-28T20:10:00.000-07:00"Well, except you know the rule: if you can see th..."Well, except you know the rule: if you can see the trout, the trout can see you."<BR/><BR/>Only a real fisherman would know that! :thumbsup:~Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01819856178499938127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-92014958674920102002007-09-28T17:25:00.000-07:002007-09-28T17:25:00.000-07:00to steward means to do our best in undoing the dam...<I>to steward means to do our best in undoing the damage we've done, so there is an element of restoration.</I><BR/><BR/>What can man possibly do to restore the damage we've done to the creation? Drew, this sounds like more man-centeredness to me.<BR/><BR/>And I don't know about calling creation a victim. Are we victims of Adam's original sin? I don't see it that way. I think we're deserving recipients of original sin.<BR/><BR/><I>For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.</I><BR/><BR/><I>Creation WAS SUBJECTED--creation is a victim, with humanity, of human sin.</I><BR/><BR/>Disagreed. The creation was subjected to futility, sure... but by what/whom? Not by humans. Not by sin. It was subjected "by HIM..." -- GOD. It's not sin that subjected creation to futility, because sin could not subject creation to futility in HOPE of its freedom of slavery. Only God could do that.<BR/><BR/>So then creation can't properly be called a victim, even if I call it fallen, because God has not victimized creation any more than He victimized Adam... or me because of Adam's sin.<BR/><BR/><I> If creation suffers because of our sin, </I><BR/><BR/>We've just established that it doesn't.<BR/><BR/><I>then we have a call participate in the God job gave us at creation: to protect and restore creation.</I><BR/><BR/>I might just be being sloppy, but I don't see ANY decree for man to restore creation. If I'm not being sloppy, and there is no such command, I would say that it borders on blasphemy to say that it's so. The renewal of all things comes at Christ's return. What in the world could we possibly restore? Maybe this isn't great for 'communication,' but I can't imagine how we could even <I>think</I> that we could do <I>anything</I> to restore the creation.<BR/><BR/>If we wanna argue over 'fallen' vs. 'cursed'... well, first, I wonder why. If you feel more comfortable saying cursed, that's fine with me. But calling it fallen in no way makes creation a victim, as I've shown above.Mike Riccardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06748453197783538367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13463058421860918892007-09-28T17:06:00.000-07:002007-09-28T17:06:00.000-07:00It's been 7 years since I've lived near or been in...It's been 7 years since I've lived near or been in the mountains (Rockies in Alberta). Those pic's sure do make me miss 'em.<BR/><BR/>You clearly had a wonderful time.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for letting us peek in.Darylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01296029404229769941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74401016505707586682007-09-28T17:02:00.000-07:002007-09-28T17:02:00.000-07:00Dan,Sorry, not my intention to pass out pickles to...Dan,<BR/>Sorry, not my intention to pass out pickles to Pyros. <BR/><BR/>re: How's that?<BR/>Stand-up triple (only God goes yard) :)<BR/><BR/>Coincidentally, going into "country" this w/end. I often fail to fully appreciate it. Thanks for the wake up call.ALL FOR ONCE/ ONCE FOR ALLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04509322860189128685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82918661448538602162007-09-28T16:57:00.000-07:002007-09-28T16:57:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2679547455748460872007-09-28T16:47:00.000-07:002007-09-28T16:47:00.000-07:00You might have estranged your British readers by n...You might have estranged your British readers by not using HP sauce.<BR/><BR/>And good thing we're not under the Law, or there could be an issue with that juicy steak on the same plate as the cream-based salad dressing.Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33350275306579936422007-09-28T16:09:00.000-07:002007-09-28T16:09:00.000-07:00As an aside, it's funny. You know, I went over tha...As an aside, it's funny. You know, I went over that first picture, and over it, trying to see if there was anything in it that anyone could conceivably object to. I couldn't see a thing.<BR/><BR/>But....<BR/><BR/><B>Salad!</B><BR/><BR/><< forehead slap >>DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2213760306529854132007-09-28T15:54:00.000-07:002007-09-28T15:54:00.000-07:00solameanie—You are the only person I have seen thu...<B>solameanie</B>—<I>You are the only person I have seen thus far who can post lovely vacation photos and recount a near-idyllic time with your family and in so doing get a fight started over whether or not creation is cursed. How do you do it? Would you charge for a correspondence course?</I><BR/><BR/>Thanks for the badly-needed chuckle. Yes, it is a gift. I don't know whether it can be taught, though.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82319460312897841732007-09-28T15:53:00.000-07:002007-09-28T15:53:00.000-07:00all-for.etc.—Djp, As stewards, not dominionist-rig...<B>all-for.etc.</B>—<I>Djp, As stewards, not dominionist-right??</I><BR/><BR/>Oh boy, you <I>are</I> trying to get me in trouble, aren't you?<BR/><BR/>On the one hand, I think the answer's too heavy to get into on a comment thread for a sort of Christian travelogue (as one called it in the previous meta, not unkindly). On the other, I don't know how I can give a satisfactory answer without getting into forbidden territory.<BR/><BR/>I guess I'll say that I think the urge to exercise dominion under God is part and parcel of the image of God in man, that the Fall complicated it rather than canceling it, that stewardship is an expression of it rather than a substitute for it, and theonom<B><I>y</B></I> is bunk, though many theonom<B><I>ists </B></I> have been brilliant.<BR/><BR/>How's that?DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-40101207574641610852007-09-28T14:51:00.000-07:002007-09-28T14:51:00.000-07:00And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fr...And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth"<BR/>(Genesis 1:28)<BR/>____________________________<BR/>Djp, As stewards, not dominionist-right??ALL FOR ONCE/ ONCE FOR ALLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04509322860189128685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-46865704353208680142007-09-28T14:39:00.000-07:002007-09-28T14:39:00.000-07:00Doulos:Agreed, mostly at least.Victim implies pers...Doulos:<BR/><BR/>Agreed, mostly at least.<BR/><BR/>Victim implies personhood, just as fallen did. Both should be avoided. As it has been pointed out, cursed because of humankind's sin is good.<BR/><BR/>True enough, no call to restore, only to steward. Final restoration comes in Christ. I do believe, however, that to steward means to do our best in undoing the damage we've done, so there is an element of restoration.Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08284171572883616668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74534204095483039512007-09-28T14:11:00.000-07:002007-09-28T14:11:00.000-07:00Maybe Cain had an iron and protein deficiency....Maybe Cain had an iron and protein deficiency....Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74968717891741342232007-09-28T14:07:00.000-07:002007-09-28T14:07:00.000-07:00Hey, now! Everyone from Adam to pre-covenant Noah...Hey, now! Everyone from Adam to pre-covenant Noah was commanded to only eat greens, and given what that noted horticulturalist Cain got up to, we can't accuse them of being a bunch of sissies. (Not that he's a role model, except for Lamech.)<BR/><BR/>That said, there's too much meat 'n' starch in my diet. V8's good for a manly vegetable fix, without going all soft and having a salad. [I have been known to make (whoops, did I say that?) and eat a mean Greek salad or two in my life, though....]Stefan Ewinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05530690016594029847noreply@blogger.com