tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post6635980465051402009..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: More On the Pornification of the PulpitPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger121125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55905002640032960202009-03-30T06:46:00.000-07:002009-03-30T06:46:00.000-07:00I haven't seen any parodies from you to worry abou...I haven't seen any parodies from you to worry about Phil...<BR/><BR/>:-)<BR/><BR/>I agree with driscoll as far as being tough with the wolves and tender with the sheep. However, he seems to equate being tough with the wolves as being profane. I certainly don't mind Luther's penchant to call names to the correct people, as we see it is done in Scripture as well. However that is different than being vulgar in order to WIN some to Christ. yeeks. One thing that STOPPED me from using profanity as a teen was to realize some of my best friends NEVER used it.terriergalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08801794520433439408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74658666287122535122009-03-27T21:53:00.000-07:002009-03-27T21:53:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Vagabondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04550586729174312768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20020526168848666862009-03-27T20:06:00.000-07:002009-03-27T20:06:00.000-07:00Hopefully at last the blogosphere is dying down on...Hopefully at last the blogosphere is dying down on this. <BR/><BR/>Hope we are still friends Phil after our RBS interaction.Robert Briggshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041121236591940382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-29685047669901626092009-03-27T15:33:00.000-07:002009-03-27T15:33:00.000-07:00Phil:Thank you for posting this. I was saved out o...Phil:<BR/><BR/>Thank you for posting this. I was saved out of pornography and am totally disgusted with the use of porn, etc., in what is called "the church".Tim Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06771868540726222826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34745358224017366682009-03-27T03:46:00.000-07:002009-03-27T03:46:00.000-07:00I must admit I thought the comments had been close...I must admit I thought the comments had been closed for this...but since people are still going, I'll add my FINAL comments...<BR/><BR/>1) Thanks to Phil for his original thought-provoking message. Sorry if I have gone on about MD rather a lot. Please understand it's the only experience I have of the sort of thing Phil was talking about. <BR/><BR/>2) I still like Driscoll. I like his forthrightness and particularly his ability to communicate to men from an unchurched background. I do wish he would drop *that* joke though (the Ecclesiastes one), and any others that might alter someone's perception of a scripture in a bad way. I haven't been able to hear his message in Edinburgh (can't find it on their website - has it been pulled??) but if the characterisation given by others was correct, it does sound way OTT. My prayer for MD is that he continues to engage with the unchurched and messed-up, and that he will continue to grow in wisdom in how far to take that engagement without becoming worldly in his speech.<BR/><BR/>3) I still think there are a lot of people (mostly men) in church who need direct teaching on sex, porn, relationships, manly responsibility. I regard SoS as a good way to teach it. Whatever the level of Christiological content, it surely contains a great deal of wisdom on these issues. For that reason, it's a good launching pad for all sorts of topical teaching (As Luke pointed out). I'm thinking a good place for that is in single-sex teaching groups? Having married-only groups misses all the singles who struggle with sex/relationships stuff. Doing it like MD in a normal service is not how I would do it, but as I pointed out before, there was plenty of warning, and it was clear what the content would be beforehand. He's also in a church with a pretty unusual demographic. I agree with Luke that the material in MD's SoS talks was very broad and was mostly only directly relevant to married or engaged people. Perhaps that does cause a problem for singles generally? Some on here have said it does for them and of course, I accept that. But I wouldn't criticise MD for pastoral decisions he's made - I'm sure he's well aware of the needs/struggles of his congregation, and the pastoral implications of him doing it.<BR/><BR/>4) I don't see 1-1 counselling, parents, mentors as the only solution, although of course it is a vital part of the armoury. When someone come to me for help about porn addiction (as they did recently), I'm obviously not going to turn them away! But I'm pretty sure he's only the tip of the iceberg. I believe MD's statistics are accurate and that many many guys (and women) in churches have huge problems in these areas.<BR/><BR/>For those who might have read some of "Porn again Christian" by MD and are shocked that such a thing should exist, can I humbly suggest you might not know what goes on in the minds of some of the guys you know? That book is very frank, but it is a book, and even MD I don't think would cover that stuff in a sermon! And it is firmly rooted in the Bible. His motivation is to help brothers who struggle in these things and can't find help elsewhere. <BR/><BR/>Many guys didn't have godly parents and the idea of 1-1 is very scary. For many it's just too difficult a subject to go and seek help with. From a practical point of view, tackling those subjects Biblically is easier in a group I would say. And I can't find any direct Biblical backing to say it's OK to talk frankly about this stuff 1-1 but not in say, a single-sex group. I think it really does come down to practicalities and godly wisdom.<BR/><BR/>5) Thanks to those who have recommended other resources. I have read Josh Harris' books and found them helpful. The problem with books is getting people to read them. I suppose one benefit of group teaching around these issues is that it confronts people with their sinful behaviour and then provides a solution. A book provides a solution, but only to those who recognise the sinful behaviour already and desire to mortify it.<BR/><BR/>6) I have found the attitude of some people on here rather tiresome. Some have been accusative and confrontational to the point of being abusive. My questions were genuinely real questions, seeking clarification of the implications of Phil's helpful teaching. Some seemed to see Phil's message as "keep filthy language out of the pulpit", and jumped to the conclusion that anyone not saying "well said, brother" was saying, "we like filthy language in the pulpit. More please!". If I have not been clear, and have come across in that way, or I have come across as disrespectful of anyone, then I apologise. It was not my intent. <BR/><BR/>7) For me, this discussion has also demonstrated the limitations of a blogger meta for useful discussion. It's just not designed for it. It has no easy way to post quotes from others; it's hard to see what people are commenting on quite often. Usenet is a bit better for this sort of thing. But above all, I'm sure that if this discussion were had face-to-face it would have been far more productive and far less confrontational. C'est la vie.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, that's all I'm going to say on the matter. Thanks to those who have taken the time to clarify and lead my thinking in Godly directions. Blessings on you.Tournifreakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12300006435977053829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27887243781649716432009-03-26T13:59:00.000-07:002009-03-26T13:59:00.000-07:00I guess I don't listen to the same preachers you g...I guess I don't listen to the same preachers you guys do, because my pastor is very circumspect on what he says both in and out of the pulpit, thankfully! I am honestly astonished that this would actually be an issue for someone--I mean, duh, of COURSE Christians should use right speech and avoid vulgar, crude language. But since it apparently is an issue, then good on you for addressing it, Phil. Out of curiosity, I started listening to Driscoll's sermon on "the good bits" (I'm married :^)) and was uncomfortable with just the first few minutes--it's more than a bit crude to tell the single people in the congregation that it's too bad they're single because they can't go home and "put into practice" what the Bible says. If anyone said that to me when I was single, I would think he was a jerk. In fact I still think that was a jerky, inappropriate thing to say.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17509231985556851869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10284315444367341512009-03-26T08:36:00.000-07:002009-03-26T08:36:00.000-07:00Luke <---- What he said.Welcome to blogland :DLuke <---- What he said.<BR/><BR/>Welcome to blogland :DAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-32850305779044226402009-03-26T08:27:00.000-07:002009-03-26T08:27:00.000-07:001. Luke - you IDIOT!!!!!2. Totally kidding on #1...1. Luke - you IDIOT!!!!!<BR/><BR/>2. <I>Totally</I> kidding on #1<BR/><BR/>3. But now anything Phil says won't feel so harsh.<BR/><BR/>G'day!<BR/><BR/>(c:DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-89296224532132078132009-03-26T08:20:00.000-07:002009-03-26T08:20:00.000-07:00I've been deliberating whether or not to post a co...I've been deliberating whether or not to post a comment here, but its bothered me so much I feel I need to 'chip in'. Part of my trepidation in commenting is that I'm fairly new to blogging and so feel like the scared kid on this first day of high school - please be gentle in your replies to my comment (if indeed there are any!). Here it goes:<BR/><BR/>Phil,<BR/>Thank you so much for both the talk and the posts. I agree with many that this needed to be said. I always thought we were supposed to be counter cultural, but it seems as if this need to 'meet the culture' only points out whose approval is being looked for - the world's rather than God's. How sad. I do believe that when we were called to be <A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=2&verse=15&version=47&context=verse" REL="nofollow">lights in the world</A>, it does not mean the neon lights that adorn sex shops throughout red light districts across the globe. Thank you for for all the good work!<BR/><BR/>Tournifreak et al.,<BR/>I in no way claim to be an expert in any of this, but I felt that I should share the following (even thought the SoS thing is a real side issue).<BR/><BR/>I have listened to a couple of the SoS talks by MD (with my wife on our honeymoon), so can appreciate where you're coming from. My understanding of your questions is that you are genuinely questioning a)how one can preach on SoS in an honest and comprehensive manner and b)how can one preach on marriage and intimacy. If I have misunderstood your questions (and the others who have replied to you), I apologise - please ignore my reply below and read my comments as side issues. <BR/><BR/>Let me first say that the sermon series by MD on SoS, like many of his series, is really more a topical series, with the SoS used as a bible base from which to launch his (sometimes more opinion based) sermons. I have no problem with this, but it means that these sermons are really more about the topic than the 'straight text'.<BR/><BR/>To answer the questions I posed above, I think that if one is looking to preach SoS to a normal, mixed audience, then one needs to write the sermon for said audience. Focusing entirely on sex and the other intimate details of marriage would only really be appropriate to those who are married or engaged and would in fact be quite unhelpful to those who are single or struggle with sexual sin.<BR/><BR/>If the goal is to teach in <I>detail</I> on marriage and intimacy to a large group via a sermon, maybe the best format would be a seminar for married people?? It is important to remember that this part of marriage is 'private' and much of the practical outworkings of intimacy within a marriage would be specific to, and for discussion between, the husband and wife <I>only</I>. As this is therefore an extremely personal matter, these talks shouldn't be blunt and therefore to some, vulgar (as some find MD's talks).<BR/><BR/>Also, there are plently of books which give excellent practical advice based on the solid biblical teachings of marriage and intimacy. Two recommended to me and my wife were <A HREF="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Married-God-Making-Your-Marriage/dp/1844741893/ref=pd_sim_b_2" REL="nofollow">Married for God</A> and <A HREF="http://www.matthiasmedia.com.au/mmstore/of.html" REL="nofollow">One Flesh</A>. Both were extremely helpful, relevant, appropriate, biblical and practical.<BR/><BR/>Phew! I hope these comments help, and if they didn't, thank you for your patience. I apologise if they seem a little 'rambly' - its very late at night atm for me!<BR/><BR/>Thanks all!<BR/>LukeLukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04897173246314714922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-5178586453824748742009-03-24T21:23:00.000-07:002009-03-24T21:23:00.000-07:00"One intriguing fact stands out in all the critici..."One intriguing fact stands out in all the criticisms of that message: not a single critic has challenged my interpretation of Titus 2:7-8; Ephesians 4:29; 5:3-4; or the third commandment (Exodus 20:7)."<BR/><BR/>This was my initial reaction to your first post on this issue. It is sad to see so many people devoted to defending their icon rather than stand on principle and affirm truth. Reminds me of the political arena . . .Jonathan Moorheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03687367307942260277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67656597669295985312009-03-24T17:55:00.000-07:002009-03-24T17:55:00.000-07:00Great post, Phil. It made me more conscious of th...Great post, Phil. It made me more conscious of the need to maintain purity of our thought processes because what we are inside eventually works its way out in our words and actions. It's like Moses and his leprous hand sign (Exodus 4:6-7). What we are, we ultimately do.Burrito34https://www.blogger.com/profile/04326575419406343733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-11140558376785925912009-03-24T16:06:00.000-07:002009-03-24T16:06:00.000-07:00Uhmmm.... sheep were not one time goats. As lost s...Uhmmm.... sheep were not one time goats. As lost sheep, they were enemies of God.<BR/><BR/>Replace sheep and goat with elect and reprobate and you'll understand it a bit better.BlackCalvinist aka G.R.A.C.E. Preechahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15932595078017549317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26812238625492399552009-03-24T15:48:00.000-07:002009-03-24T15:48:00.000-07:00"Know ye not that the unrighteous (goats) shall no..."Know ye not that the unrighteous (goats) shall not inheit the kingdom of God?...and such were some of you, but you are washed..."<BR/><BR/>Paul says we were once enemies of God, not poor lost sheep. It is semantics. God saves sinners, otherwise known as goats, and transforms them into sheep. You are correct, farmers cannot do that.Rick Fruehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-21606717558786983362009-03-24T15:24:00.001-07:002009-03-24T15:24:00.001-07:00er... tack on vs. 30. that's what i get for going...er... tack on vs. 30. that's what i get for going from memory.David Ruddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12572780147564110421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-12952041694668855792009-03-24T15:24:00.000-07:002009-03-24T15:24:00.000-07:00sheep/goatswheat/taresmatthew 13:24-29.i'm pretty ...sheep/goats<BR/><BR/>wheat/tares<BR/><BR/>matthew 13:24-29.<BR/><BR/>i'm pretty sure it's the shepherd/master's role to do the separating (i believe all parables point to this?)<BR/><BR/>our role is to preach the gospel.David Ruddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12572780147564110421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3710142318898449092009-03-24T15:17:00.000-07:002009-03-24T15:17:00.000-07:00Rick:"I pray for more goats to be changed into she...Rick:<BR/><BR/>"I pray for more goats to be changed into sheep."<BR/><BR/>I assure you, no farmer has ever entered his pasture to find a goat transformed into a sheep.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-35280324886350175822009-03-24T14:17:00.000-07:002009-03-24T14:17:00.000-07:00Rick:"Christ died for a one time goat like me."No,...Rick:<BR/><BR/>"Christ died for a one time goat like me."<BR/><BR/>No, He died for His sheep, and them alone. You were never a goat; you were a lost sheep. Everyone is dead spiritually, sheep as well as goats; the Holy Spirit gives the sheep the ability to hear the Shepherd's voice, not the ability to change from a goat to a sheep.<BR/><BR/>Dogs return to their vomit, no matter how lap-friendly they are, even over years of domestication. Pigs naturally wallow in filth; they cannot be trained to not be dirty in habits. A pig can be washed, but it cannot be un-pigged.<BR/><BR/>To those who will doubtless say that I am being harsh or judgmental, I refer you to the One whose Spirit inspired the Book from whence those words came.<BR/><BR/>May God be glorified in His saints.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34678328311500358162009-03-24T14:12:00.000-07:002009-03-24T14:12:00.000-07:00I am sure our calling is not a war between sheep a...I am sure our calling is not a war between sheep and goats. I have been transformed from a goat into a sheep by God's gospel, however I was born a goat. I do not believe anyone is born a sheep.<BR/><BR/>I pray for more goats to be changed into sheep.<BR/><BR/>Peace.Rick Fruehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-34091041281527225412009-03-24T14:00:00.000-07:002009-03-24T14:00:00.000-07:00Rick:I'm a Kansas girl and have grown up around fa...Rick:<BR/><BR/>I'm a Kansas girl and have grown up around farms and I can assure you that goats are born goats and sheep are born sheep. A kid does not transform into a sheep, nor does a lamb transform into a goat. <BR/><BR/>Yes, Christ alone will separate the sheep from the goats, but we are also clearly instructed how to recognize a goat and to avoid goats (2 Timothy 3:5). <BR/><BR/>Contending for the faith does not make one self-righteous. Thinking that a dead man chose righteousness does.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-47699092169595141662009-03-24T13:31:00.000-07:002009-03-24T13:31:00.000-07:00I believe the Scriptures teach that Christ will Hi...I believe the Scriptures teach that Christ will Himself separate the sheep from the goats. Until then, we must reach who may perceive as goats.<BR/><BR/>Identifying "goats" is a non exact science that, when practiced, can unconsciously lead to self righteousness. Christ died for a one time goat like me.Rick Fruehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-81234779381137739642009-03-24T11:54:00.000-07:002009-03-24T11:54:00.000-07:00Phil,You said 'pompus ass'. I'm never reading your...Phil,<BR/><BR/>You said 'pompus ass'. <BR/><BR/>I'm never reading your blog again and I'm unfacebookfriending you.<BR/><BR/>*tongue in cheek*<BR/><BR/>KerryBlackCalvinist aka G.R.A.C.E. Preechahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15932595078017549317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-56657370071095744992009-03-24T11:48:00.000-07:002009-03-24T11:48:00.000-07:00Phil,Thank you for pointing out Mark's sermon at D...Phil,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for pointing out Mark's sermon at Destiny Church in Edinburgh. I couldn't believe the frankness and the frivolous tone he used in a very mixed setting. And what is more I couldn't believe the jocularity with which it was received. It was the best and worse example of what you preached about.<BR/><BR/>And no thank you for pointing it out. In many ways I wished I wouldn't have listened to it.<BR/><BR/>I speak to 18-35 year-old singles and marrieds every week and I just taught through Song of Solomon. I didn't "see" most of what I "found" there, and if I did, I still wouldn't speak of it in such a way. It was embarrassing to listen to alone. Not because I was learning something new or that I have a sinful or shameful past. It was an embarrassment in thinking about this being talked about in a setting with women and single men in attendance.Don Fieldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09895024815386234008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44422006057176862612009-03-24T09:51:00.000-07:002009-03-24T09:51:00.000-07:00Atone:Far from being a broad brush, it is a fine t...Atone:<BR/><BR/>Far from being a broad brush, it is a fine tipped brush acquired from years of seeing goats bleating and kicking when a sheep properly identifies them as a goat.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-17627900365579596572009-03-24T09:33:00.000-07:002009-03-24T09:33:00.000-07:00They love to sling the ad hominem stone and infer ...<I>They love to sling the ad hominem stone and infer that godly men like the Pyro's are "unloving". Their goal is to shut you up.</I><BR/><BR/>EM, that's a bit of an extreme broad brush you've painted here.Bradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03184505091838154270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44739910742917615702009-03-24T08:31:00.000-07:002009-03-24T08:31:00.000-07:00Does any of it matter? I mean, the cute puppy dog...Does any of it matter? I mean, the cute puppy dog at the end of the column is so sweet and innocent - God's common grace on sinful man. Let's just hug the puppy.<BR/><BR/>And rebuke error and boldly stand for Truth.<BR/><BR/>Press on! <BR/><BR/>And more puppies, please :-)Stuart Brogdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05293983517209519257noreply@blogger.com