tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post6648557519736116392..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Truth and ApologeticsPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-76563687810199180472009-04-19T02:46:00.000-07:002009-04-19T02:46:00.000-07:00Hi Phil,
Does rejecting God on the basis of our l...Hi Phil,<br /><br />Does rejecting God on the basis of our limited knowledge and especially rejecting what He has declared about Himself i.e. that He is holy and the Judge of all the earth who always does what is right, bring any advantages? How does it deal with the spectre of the unsaved listener/questioner's personal guilt? <br /><br />Faith believes that whatever God does is right - 100% right - even when sometimes stumbling for an answer. No one is in hell who does not deserve to be there.<br /><br />The idea that the unsaved will simply shrug their shoulders and walk away doesn't fit with the facts as given. They cared enough to raise the objection. At least this is a foothold for our evangelistic efforts. A foothold can soon become a strong hold. <br /><br />Regards,Colin Maxwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02632698769785766168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-61640216723538653262009-04-18T16:29:00.000-07:002009-04-18T16:29:00.000-07:00Maybe this has been said . . . but the contemporar...Maybe this has been said . . . but the contemporary evangelical folks have convinced many that WE have to save people . . . that WE have to present culturally acceptable arguments if we want to have a chance.<br /><br />It shows us how off many are ( and I was one for a long time ) on God's sovereignty. HE does the saving so we always present HIS Word. SO we need to KNOW it so we can present it . . . "mouthpieces for God", to His glory . . . not our tally of souls won PERSONALLY.Mike the Bible Burgh Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14942060464333223554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82820584318269386092009-04-18T15:17:00.000-07:002009-04-18T15:17:00.000-07:00Ian
It IS about God's justice because you're very...Ian<br /><br />It IS about God's justice because you're very first comment stated that you question the justification of the killing of the Canaanites. That passage plainly states that God commanded it because of their abominations. The understanding I have been told to have about the passage is irrelevant because God speaks for Himself in that passage, quite clearly. The original post was about whether or not WE (believers), should tell unbelievers the truth about why God destroyed Canaan as it is stated in scripture.<br /><br />I offer the Job passage because God Himself cautions us against questioning His actions and sitting in judgment of His justice.<br /><br />I imagine that this does not set the issue to rest for you... and in the interest of sparing the rest of these good people any more of the discussion... I invite you to follow the hyperlink on my name to my blog and leave any comment you desire there. I would also like to reiterate that I am not seeking to win an argument... just sharing from a sincere desire to uphold God's glory.SandManhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04003338922805271638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39746748821117543412009-04-18T14:57:00.000-07:002009-04-18T14:57:00.000-07:00SandMan
So, even though an action seems to contra...SandMan<br /><br />So, even though an action <I>seems</I> to contradict the overall thrust of the portrayal of Justice in the Bible we have to accept it on the basis of Job? No - I don't see that. This isn't about God's Justice, it is about our understanding of what a passage means, and what it doesn't mean; and also of how we explain these things to unbelievers.<br /><br />What you are actually saying is that "on the basis of Job 39 - 42 the way I have been told to understand this passage is the way I have to accept it". That is not the same thing as saying that God is always just, and it is this erroneous hermeneutic that can cause problem to the non-believer.Ian Matthewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16777033213615262701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22428834359611237892009-04-18T14:38:00.000-07:002009-04-18T14:38:00.000-07:00"If God kills your baby for the sin committed by y..."If God kills your baby for the sin committed by your neighbor (or even you) is that just?"<br /><br />@Ian<br />Psalm 115:3<br />Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.<br /><br />I do not say this lightly, as my wife and I have experienced the loss of two babies (though admittedly not expressed to us as payment of wrath for anyone's sin)-- but unequivocally, my answer is yes. I again invite you to read Job 39-42. In plain words, whatever God does is justice. If He did it, it was right. That may not meet a scholarly standard of debate (I may be accused of circular reasoning). I accept this based on my faith in God as He is revealed in His Word. If He does something that I don't agree with, or understand, I am the one who is limited in my understanding/ sense of justice-- not God.<br /><br />Please understand that I have no desire to trade banter with you or anyone else for the sake of "winning" an argument. I simply care about the glory of my God and sense from your comments that you question His justice. This is a key element of His character, and to diminish it is to diminish Him. For God's glory, and your edification, I kindly encourage you to reconsider your view of God in this area.SandManhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04003338922805271638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-37462330802084189952009-04-18T14:36:00.000-07:002009-04-18T14:36:00.000-07:00"If God kills your baby for the sin committed by y..."If God kills your baby for the sin committed by your neighbor (or even you) is that just?"<br /><br />@Ian<br />Psalm 115:3<br />Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.<br /><br />I do not say this lightly, as my wife and I have experienced the loss of two babies (though admittedly not expressed to us as payment of wrath for anyone's sin)-- but unequivocally, my answer is yes. I again invite you to read Job 39-42. In plain words, whatever God does is justice. If He did it, it was right. That may not meet a scholarly standard of debate (I may be accused of circular reasoning). I accept this based on my faith in God as He is revealed in His Word. If He does something that I don't agree with, or understand, I am the one who is limited in my understanding/ sense of justice-- not God.<br /><br />Please understand that I have no desire to trade banter with you or anyone else for the sake of "winning" an argument. I simply care about the glory of my God and sense from your comments that you question His justice. This is a key element of His character, and to diminish it is to diminish Him. For God's glory, and your edification, I kindly encourage you to reconsider your view of God in this area.SandManhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04003338922805271638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16233320449311652592009-04-18T13:11:00.000-07:002009-04-18T13:11:00.000-07:00Phil,
Thanks for the helpful thoughts. You mentio...Phil,<br /><br />Thanks for the helpful thoughts. You mentioned at the beginning that this is "an excellent, but difficult, question." You also echoed the "inevitable tension" behind your emailer's question. Yet the answer you gave didn't seem to provide much explanation for how we navigate the "difficulty" and the "tension." The answer seemed simple enough (just speak the truth) to deny or at least downplay any sense of tension or difficulty.<br /><br />Could you expand on how to deal with the tension that you seemed to acknowledge in the first couple paragraphs of the post? Thanks.<br /><br />GunnerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-50595132746346624772009-04-18T13:10:00.000-07:002009-04-18T13:10:00.000-07:00It seems the "newest " methodology for presenting ...It seems the "newest " methodology for presenting the truth of scripture or the gospel is not to often or to be "culturally relevant ".<br /><br />Gone is the belief that God draws and opens the understanding or that the Holy spirit opens us to truth.. <br /><br />Now we are to assume the outcome of evangelization rests fully on US.<br /><br />The story of the destruction of Canaanites is a wonderful lead into the fate of those that are an abomination to God.. <br /><br />The gospel REPENT and believe come to life here.<br /><br />It is not our job to spare feelings or to change the culture.. but to be faithful in presenting the truth of Gods word and pressing the gospel..TARhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17978325588611965241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-49128504539136464272009-04-18T13:06:00.000-07:002009-04-18T13:06:00.000-07:00Steve. I could, you're right. Although scripture i...Steve. I could, you're right. Although scripture insn't clear that God is pubishing David through the death of the child.Ian Matthewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16777033213615262701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-29106543962148194292009-04-18T11:14:00.000-07:002009-04-18T11:14:00.000-07:00Ian, I guess you could ask King David if God was j...Ian, I guess you could ask King David if God was just in taking his child that was fathered via the adulterous relationship.Stevemdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03570522700018323586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-13387806688850451812009-04-18T11:03:00.000-07:002009-04-18T11:03:00.000-07:00Phil,
thanks for the post. I didn't read all comme...Phil,<br />thanks for the post. I didn't read all comments, so if this is a repeat, as my Italian fruit farmer friend says:Mia Pulpa...<br /><br />One of the wild things about God is that even in the taking of Canaan, as God prescribed, there is an apologetic. Rahab said that she and others had heard of the terror, might and capability of the One True God. <br /><br />Joshua 2:10-11 10 "For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan, to Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed. 11 "When we heard it, our hearts melted and no courage remained in any man any longer because of you; for the LORD your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath." <br /><br />Again, this truth is confrontational, but clearly God uses these means...<br /><br />Sam HendricksonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-55985692061916008922009-04-18T10:41:00.000-07:002009-04-18T10:41:00.000-07:00Sandman
You wrote:
"@Ian...If I am reading you r...Sandman<br /><br />You wrote:<br /><br />"@Ian...If I am reading you right, then I offer this for you to consider. God's justice is perfect and requires no justification at all (Job chapters 39-42 among others). The implication that any man, woman, or child is "innocent" before God does no "justice" to God's holiness, and certainly misunderstands the nature of man."<br /><br />My point is not that someone is innocnet of everything, but that a child would have been innocent of the abomination that God meted out punishment for. If God kills your baby for the sin committed by your neighbor (or even you) is that just?Ian Matthewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16777033213615262701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-43546761754397741622009-04-18T07:58:00.000-07:002009-04-18T07:58:00.000-07:00Good stuff, Phil
I agree we must not ASSUME what t...Good stuff, Phil<br />I agree we must not ASSUME what the unbeliever will think, we are to procaim truth and to allow the Spirit to convict.<br />Above all i think you only have a right to 'defend' the faith if you have a heart for souls of others.<br /><br />Must get to the heart of the question (no point leaving a person who's only impression is 'wow, they are really smart')<br />Talk about an open door, answer the question regarding God's justice then and the turn it onto the person (explaining the justice we all and specifically that person deserves)<br />Isn't this EXACTLY what Jesus did in Luke 13:1-5 Jesus attacked the question in an evangelistic way: i would say that people speak of the justice of God in two ways: either to prove God's unfairness or to condemn others so they look better (which is what these people are doing).<br />When it's a matter of eternity, it's not inconsistent with LOVE to interupt and change the subject or the object.Julius Mickelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02453209929174513662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73625833243223372632009-04-18T06:24:00.000-07:002009-04-18T06:24:00.000-07:00What is the question behind the question?
Quite o...What is the question behind the question?<br /><br />Quite often when unbelievers or secularly influenced academics ask this question, what they are actually saying is:<br />How come if American Protestants would never even consider destroying a Muslim nation in the name of God today, the Jews did this in the OT at God's command in the case of the Canaanites?<br /><br />That is a very different question from "We all deserve God's wrath and obliteration for our sin and the Canaanites were the worst of the worst, so God was just in doing so."<br /><br />An apologist does not retreat on the Truth of the Word of God, but instead has a bigger picture in view. In the case of why did God command Israel to destroy the Canaanites (but you Christians would never buy that sort of thing today..), you are talking pre-incarnation, post-incarnation. <br /><br />does this make sense?Debhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987103463669929569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-30235675867472538132009-04-18T02:27:00.000-07:002009-04-18T02:27:00.000-07:00Bluecollar Todd,
Do you know Joseph Gorra (he's a...Bluecollar Todd,<br /><br />Do you know Joseph Gorra (he's a Lebanese guy, really nice guy, btw)? I went to undergrad with him a Multnomah.<br /><br />I agree, "Liberalism," is a problem; especially, insofar, as it has penetrated the walls of "Evangelicalism." And the history of <EM>Fundamentalism</EM> is rife with the same, ironically, <EM>rationalism</EM> that it seeks to undercut (see George Marsden's, "<EM>Fundamentalism and American Culture"</EM>). Thus its current demise, and collapse into the relativism of a belief system "firmly planted in mid-air."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80283167424970472012009-04-18T01:30:00.000-07:002009-04-18T01:30:00.000-07:00@theologyofbobby
If you don't mind divulging, whe...@theologyofbobby<br /><br /><EM>If you don't mind divulging, when did you graduate from the program there?</EM>2002<br /><br /><EM>As far as "Liberal theology" and "Liberal politics" I couldn't agree more.</EM>Those of us who understand this need to step up and help those accommodating and compromising to this to see the danger Liberalism poses to biblical Christianity. J.G. Machen and Francis Schaeffer were way ahead of their time in pointing out the incompatibility of Liberalism and Christianity. Now we are witnessing the evil fruit that necessarily results from Liberal Theology.Blue Collar Toddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06405341351988210669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86172252000584595832009-04-18T01:08:00.000-07:002009-04-18T01:08:00.000-07:00Bluecollar Todd,
I have many friends who have gra...<STRONG>Bluecollar Todd</STRONG>,<br /><br />I have many friends who have graduated from Talbot with the MA in philosophy (in fact I was accepted and slated to go with that program myself, but the LORD had other plans). If you don't mind divulging, when did you graduate from the program there? Maybe we know some of the same people.<br /><br />My comment on Talbot was a generalization --- but I'm pretty sure, in fact I know, that <EM>Libertarian Free Agency</EM> (vs. <EM>Compatibalism</EM> actually one of the grads that I know was in the minority by holding this position, as he shared with me) reigns supreme. I realize that some of this is apples and oranges, but when <EM>LFA</EM> is transferred into theological parlance <EM>semi</EM>-Pelagianism seems to be the best fit. I wonder what you think (although this discussion may not be fitting per the topic of this thread).<br /><br />As far as "Liberal theology" and "Liberal politics" I couldn't agree more. I also think that the enmeshing of God's Holiness and Christian ethics, as it commonly/classically has been done assumes a rather <EM>negative</EM> approach (by engaging this issue through a 'natural theology' fitted to 'Theology Proper'). Instead if we are going to speak about <EM>Christian ethics</EM> I think we need to start with Christ (positive), and think through and out of the analogy provided by the <EM>Incarnation</EM> --- and this discussion also goes further than I think this thread is geared for --- that is a discussion on the relationship between <EM>Nature and Grace</EM>.<br /><br />I think we agree in general, Todd; but probably want to get there in different ways (methodologically).<br /><br />Peace.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88045558244504072072009-04-18T00:20:00.000-07:002009-04-18T00:20:00.000-07:00Thanks, Phil, for posting this. The professor's r...Thanks, Phil, for posting this. The professor's response to your friend makes one think.Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08289347868497438542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-56886805901142528962009-04-17T23:23:00.000-07:002009-04-17T23:23:00.000-07:00What does anyone propose that the apologist do now...What does anyone propose that the apologist do now?Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10356697645808228238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-33266692669417070672009-04-17T21:48:00.000-07:002009-04-17T21:48:00.000-07:00@theologyof bobby
It sounds like this prof/philos...@theologyof bobby<br /><br /><EM>It sounds like this prof/philosopher might come from the Pelagian side of things (which many do, esp. from Talbot --- "middle knowledge") . . . which definitely places more emphasis on our personal strategies than it does God's ability to "cut the heart" through His spoken and living Word.</EM>I am in agreement with Phil's response and the questioners use of Scripture even though I am a grad from Talbot's MA Philosophy program. It troubles me that there seems to be a trend to divorce Christian ethics from the holiness of God. This leads to acceptance of "pro-choice" Christians, Christians who accept the radical claims of gay activists, and Christians tolerating at best, or propagating at worse, sin. I think Liberal Theology and its twin, Liberalism in politics is to blame for this and it must be confronted.Blue Collar Toddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06405341351988210669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-27465421820429298052009-04-17T20:15:00.000-07:002009-04-17T20:15:00.000-07:00Then there is always Joh 3:18 and 3:36. The next t...Then there is always Joh 3:18 and 3:36. The next time ALL the canaanites die for eternity.ezekielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11991868400830971195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8567473027526266072009-04-17T17:15:00.000-07:002009-04-17T17:15:00.000-07:00Speaking the truth in love - That is the greatest ...Speaking the truth in love - That is the greatest single challenge we have from Scripture.<br /><br />And may we learn all the more therfore to depend on the Spirit of grace and truth as we prepare and equip ourselves and our families to give a reason for the hope that is in us, without evading the hard truths (When they are required).<br /><br />May we also season the hard truths with compassion and love in general grace and plead for application of the Particular redemptive love gift Whom is Messiah.<br /><br />Your servant for the glory of our Great King Alone,<br />WBoerseuntjiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12823588390354919031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-14462330635603156052009-04-17T15:19:00.000-07:002009-04-17T15:19:00.000-07:00Alan:
Many thanks for pointing-out that grammatic...Alan:<br /><br />Many thanks for pointing-out that grammatical flaw! What a concept for me to consider: actually re-reading (and editing) a comment before I post it :^)Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01930864320573865515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-71201488859946499422009-04-17T14:32:00.000-07:002009-04-17T14:32:00.000-07:00From the OP:
"When people get timid about declari...From the OP:<br /><br />"When people get timid about declaring what Scripture plainly says—especially when that apprehension is driven by fear about how unbelievers might respond—someone has lost sight of what it means to give a defense of the truth."<br /><br />Indeed. If the truth is seen as the stronghold of the believer, like a castle, a defense of that castle is never going to be weak or half-hearted, unless the soldier defending said fortress is subconsciously or secretly expectingto be annihilated.<br /><br />So many excellent points here, and all this fruitful discussion points to the fact that so many people have confused the teaching role of a pastor with the responsibilities that are laid on those who are called to be evangelists. Teaching, even preaching expositionally, is inherently focused on feeding the flock. Evangelism is focused on heralding the judgment of God and the gracious salvation He provided through Christ. While preaching/teaching (ala pastoral church ministry) can be evangelistic in the sense that there is a call to those who do not know Christ, it, to me, is very likely that a person sitting under such ecclesiastic preaching has already been led there by God in an intentional way. IOW, the unsaved person sitting under preaching in a church may have been further prepared or led by God to that place. Evangelism, on the other hand, is necessarily confrontational in nature (although not necessarily loud or shocking). The evangelist, like a Whitefield fr'instance, is likely to be found preaching in actively hostile territory where ANY Gospel proclamation is going to be met with totally un-tilled, stony grounded hearts.<br /><br />Apologetics seems, to me, to be an attempt to bridge the gap between the LOGISTICS of evangelism (usually not in a church setting) and the WORK of preaching/teaching (which is, as others have commented, directed towards those who are genuinely led to seek God's truth, though yet unsaved or immature they may be.<br /><br />A tightrope it is, and not one that any old joe can navigate safely. Apologists, true and legitimate ones, are rare birds.<br /><br />Good thing we aren't all hands, arms or eyes... God has built us all into Christ's body. To Him be all glory.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44107425549385259002009-04-17T14:16:00.000-07:002009-04-17T14:16:00.000-07:00I still think you guys are missing a huge piece of...I still think you guys are missing a huge piece of the pie. It's not just about God's justice and wrath.<br /><br />Grace also links to a sermon and sermon notes that reinforces the point I made earlier (see at 9:31 AM). <br /><br />Without this part, you're missing a huge piece of the narrative.Debhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13987103463669929569noreply@blogger.com