tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post7016676282948358743..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Land of 1000 DancesPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger242125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84959128349310492332008-01-15T16:17:00.000-08:002008-01-15T16:17:00.000-08:00Lance,I'm pretty sure mute people can't have corru...Lance,<BR/><BR/>I'm pretty sure mute people can't have corrupt communication come out of their mouths. The Bible has plenty to say about the thoughts and intents of the heart, and whatever we do in word or deed glorifying the Lord.<BR/><BR/>Even though there are plenty of verses that condemn vulgarity of the sort you describe, you continue to insist on using a verse about speech to condemn music. You don't seem to eager to answer my questions about music, so I'll leave you with this:<BR/><BR/>Am Em G D<BR/>Dsus C :-)Jeremy Feldenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04365235864118080729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-71383266071712849192008-01-15T08:52:00.000-08:002008-01-15T08:52:00.000-08:00The deleted comments were mine.The first comment I...The deleted comments were mine.<BR/><BR/>The first comment I made a joke off of Lance's "ravishing" comment, that I regretted soon after. The second comment was me asking Phil to delete the first. <I>Then</I> I realized I wasn't on Frank's blog, and that I could delete my own comments.<BR/><BR/>Sorry for any confusion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-15430911757273328812008-01-15T08:08:00.000-08:002008-01-15T08:08:00.000-08:00I know nothing of the deleted comments. I probably...I know nothing of the deleted comments. I probably do not want to know. I do respect TeamPyro and how they can disagree amongst themselves and just take it as sharpening each other.<BR/>As far as my concerns, they are genuine and heartfelt. I actually was not trying to be funny about the burqu thing. I obviously have a problem with how to communicate.<BR/>I have gotten a few e-mails because of this thread. One that was gracious about their experience with legalism. I appreciated knowing that. It is good to get the background on people to help comprehend their perspective. A few others that were rather rude and accusatory. And BTW, I haven't read Campi's blog for awhile and have no clue what he has said about this issue. I am just expressing my own heart.<BR/>Dan's article is excellent and well written on women needing to be a little more helpful in their dress. And please know I was not accusing him of having a double standard. I was accusing the Christian community as a whole. We are sinners. We all have a degree of double standards.<BR/>I am really just a Pilgrim on a journey trying to understand... trying to learn how to be a Christian that glorifies God in every corner... especially the dark ones. Along the way, I sometimes trip over obstacles I put there or others unintentionally put there or maybe even purposefully. I don't know. <BR/>I just want to know Christ and live for Him. And it seems to me that in this gray and relative world, it is too easy to get caught up in the world even as a Christian. I have a lot of questions. I have a lot to learn. But I see in Scripture so many clear and defined lines being muddied by proclaiming Christians. If it is confusing to me as a Christian, how confusing must it be to those we are called to be a light?4givenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604421713579961024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73687321186186254052008-01-15T07:57:00.000-08:002008-01-15T07:57:00.000-08:00That's the point Lance. (at least mine anyway) Wo...That's the point Lance. (at least mine anyway) Words are just tools. Take them away, and you still have the sinfulness of peoples hearts. Interestingly, flipping someone off has no meaning anywhere else in the world, but in Britain, a reversed peace sign presents the same concept. So yes, you can flip someone off on a crowded city street in Bangladesh, and they will be clueless, and it'll be "okay", but of course you will still have sinned because your heart was motivated out of unrighteous anger, just like calling your brother stupid is tanamount to murder. From the heart the mouth speaks. Like I said in many comments ago:<BR/><BR/><I>Language is morally neutral. Communication is "filthy" as the result of "the defiled and unbelieving" to whom "nothing is pure." From the root of their heart comes the wickedness. It manifests in their speech, not in morphemes arranged in a particular sequence, but <B>in the God diminishing and self-aggrandizing ideas and attitudes in which they signify</B>.</I>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24826086795386100502008-01-15T06:59:00.000-08:002008-01-15T06:59:00.000-08:00If you restrict communication to the mouth, then c...If you restrict communication to the mouth, then can mute people not have corrupt communication? How about deaf people with ASL? Does not using the mouth to speak give you a free ticket? Can you flip someone off and be ok?Lance Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11275043953229783836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-88947113665624417722008-01-15T06:43:00.000-08:002008-01-15T06:43:00.000-08:00I recommend this.I recommend <A HREF="http://phillipjohnson.blogspot.com/2005/12/what-is-worldliness-and-when-is-it.html" REL="nofollow">this.</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-73219005607952318802008-01-15T05:08:00.000-08:002008-01-15T05:08:00.000-08:004Given - when you said:I did not see bikinis. Perh...4Given - when you said:<BR/><BR/>I did not see bikinis. Perhaps what I saw were a few low cut California-style burqas.<BR/><BR/>that is a great line. I disagree with you, but that was funny.<BR/><BR/>And is this the first time in Pyro history that both Dan and Frank had posts deleted?David A. Carlsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00465387359523299616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-76472018730782193692008-01-14T20:32:00.000-08:002008-01-14T20:32:00.000-08:00Lance,Now you're getting it. Words change meaning...Lance,<BR/><BR/>Now you're getting it. Words change meaning in 400 years. I looked it up in my one volume OED. Because I had to peer at it with through the palantir that they supply, I can't give you the exact definitions.<BR/><BR/>The biblical example you give (from 1611) uses communication as the thing being communicated. That is why it "comes out of your mouth." If it were referring to music, it would say "out of your trumpet" or some such.<BR/><BR/>The modern definition of communication as the act of communicating is first attributed to John Locke in 1690. Some linguist could gas on about the Enlightenment producing more abstract categories, but hey, this is a blog. Suffice it to say, at the time the KJV was written "communication" was not used in the way you are trying to use it.<BR/><BR/>Now, can we please let Christian prudence order these areas of our lives?Jeremy Feldenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04365235864118080729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86936127478667725812008-01-14T20:13:00.000-08:002008-01-14T20:13:00.000-08:00Emotions aren't corrupt, they're like individual l...Emotions aren't corrupt, they're like individual letters, than when put together form a communication that can be corrupt. So while anger in and of itself isn't a sin, how you communicate it can be. I like the dashboard light analogy for emotions.Lance Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11275043953229783836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53622170804244111512008-01-14T18:27:00.000-08:002008-01-14T18:27:00.000-08:00Besides, Lance, just what kind of emotion would qu...Besides, Lance, just what kind of emotion would qualify as corrupt? Has not God created our emotions?Darylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01296029404229769941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67976372367392576982008-01-14T18:26:00.000-08:002008-01-14T18:26:00.000-08:00Lance,You've just over-extended yourself and lost ...Lance,<BR/><BR/>You've just over-extended yourself and lost the music argument.<BR/><BR/>The verse says..."Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth..."<BR/><BR/>Last time I check, instrumental music doesn't proceed out of your mouth. The issue is words used, never music style played.<BR/>(Otherwise, why does Scripture not explain what music style David used and tell us to stick to that?)Darylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01296029404229769941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2220679167390123462008-01-14T17:06:00.000-08:002008-01-14T17:06:00.000-08:00So why would something that communicates emotion n...So why would something that communicates emotion not be communication?Lance Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11275043953229783836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-18753843941245127122008-01-14T16:30:00.000-08:002008-01-14T16:30:00.000-08:00Kent,I found it funny that your lifted a verse abo...Kent,<BR/><BR/>I found it funny that your lifted a verse about speaking and applied it to instrumental honky tonk music. <BR/><BR/>I don't really see how a mournful Celtic tune about an fornicating highwayman is more corrupt than a mournful Celtic tune about the atonement *if the hearer does't know the words*.<BR/><BR/>I know little Latin and less Greek, but I don't see how having "making melodies" in a list of commands with "speaking" means that the two are equivalent. By that logic, being filled with Spirit (v. 18) and submitting to one another (v. 21) are forms of speech as well.<BR/><BR/>I don't think that music does absolutely nothing, though. It doesn't communicate thought, but it does a great job of communicating emotion.Jeremy Feldenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04365235864118080729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-60889356601017562032008-01-14T15:12:00.000-08:002008-01-14T15:12:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63386116362558751482008-01-14T15:10:00.000-08:002008-01-14T15:10:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8271951327666071072008-01-14T13:27:00.000-08:002008-01-14T13:27:00.000-08:00Please note that the above comment is not excusing...Please note that the above comment is not excusing the men from their responsibilities to capture their thoughts to the obedience of Jesus Christ.<BR/><BR/>But there is a reason the Bible condemns immodesty.Lance Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11275043953229783836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-1415560961537882852008-01-14T13:26:00.000-08:002008-01-14T13:26:00.000-08:00Cleavage is certainly over any line of Christian m...Cleavage is certainly over any line of Christian modesty. I think the problem is that we've been too acclimated (by the surrounding culture) to women showing off what they have. The only one who needs to see their exposure is their husband. Only a husband should be ravishing the breasts of his wife, and when women show them off to other men, they enter a state the Bible calls 'defrauding', since for any other man to even think about it would be sinful.Lance Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11275043953229783836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-22416287903035705882008-01-14T12:02:00.000-08:002008-01-14T12:02:00.000-08:00Maybe the problem is that you live in California a...Maybe the problem is that you live in California and I live in Arkansas... <BR/><BR/>I did not see bikinis. Perhaps what I saw were a few low cut California-style burqas. Perhaps my frustration with this world of double-standard Christians blinded me and all I saw was leaven.4givenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604421713579961024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-81065422340853616722008-01-14T10:29:00.000-08:002008-01-14T10:29:00.000-08:00That makes sense, Lisa. And similarly, I wasn't be...That makes sense, Lisa. And similarly, I wasn't being sarcastic; I honestly wondered (and still wonder) if I was looking at the wrong pix, or looking at them wrong. I'm <A HREF="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2006/05/sister-show-mercy.html" REL="nofollow">on-record here </A>as being pretty critical of revealing, "unhelpful" dress; but the ones I saw looked to me to be closer to burqas than bikinis.DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-30423533291628996562008-01-14T09:19:00.000-08:002008-01-14T09:19:00.000-08:00Jeremy,Your friend Garet said: "Language is moral...Jeremy,<BR/><BR/>Your friend Garet said: "Language is morally neutral." We were on the same page on "communication." The music argument was a separate issue.<BR/><BR/>Have you considered Ephesians 5:19 as you think about this:<BR/><BR/>"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord."<BR/><BR/>The word "speaking" here is laleo, used 295 times in the NT. It is "speech." And yet in the verse, "singing and making melody" are restating or describing "speaking," showing that "making melody" (psallo--to pluck on a string) is actually considered a kind of "speaking."Kent Brandenburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13419354741455959191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-82358990408188324672008-01-14T08:09:00.000-08:002008-01-14T08:09:00.000-08:00Dan,I come from a background where everything was ...Dan,<BR/>I come from a background where everything was relative and the lines were always blurred. I have a grandma that was a prostitute, a mother that drinks and a childhood that hurt... when the Lord literally took me off guard and made me realize my sinfulness and deceit, I found the Bible to be a place where I could go to learn truth and necessary boundaries so that I could live for the glory of God. Not legalistic, man-made boundaries. <BR/>With that said, what I have come across so often in the proclaiming Christian community, are more blurred lines and the truth that seems so clear in Scripture becoming relative. I have found in the blog world commenters that sit on the fence in which I cannot tell where they stand because they just want to agree with who is on top.<BR/>This thread is not particularly about the women's dresses in the photo. NOR is it about just trying to find something wrong with anything. No. It seems to be about the line of reverence and where to draw it. Maybe I am wrong. But that is what I am getting out of this.<BR/>Regarding the photos, most of the women's dresses are very nice... and I apologize for getting concerned about the few whose dresses were very low. (think leaven) Would I show up to church in those low dresses? No. <BR/>But what gets me about this seeming double-standard in the Christian community is that my life as a Christian woman would be a whole lot easier if I was fat, flat and homely. <BR/>...and there is no sarcasm in that statement.4givenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16604421713579961024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-38169736875474053222008-01-14T06:36:00.000-08:002008-01-14T06:36:00.000-08:00Can I just throw a flag on the "corruupt communica...Can I just throw a flag on the "corruupt communication" argument?<BR/><BR/>I think music sways our emotions, etc., but the "corrupt communication" argument is truly bad exegesis that results from not knowing the difference between 17th and 21st century English.<BR/><BR/>Of the verses in the KJV that mention communication, I can find none that do not refer to speech. That is why most modern translations use "unwholesome language" in Ephesians 4:29 rather than the KJV's "corrupt communication." This is not to say that the KJV is wrong. Communication meant speech in the 17th century.Jeremy Feldenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04365235864118080729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85075619765621044472008-01-14T06:33:00.000-08:002008-01-14T06:33:00.000-08:00"Burstingly immodest" :) Sometimes your language i..."Burstingly immodest" :) Sometimes your language is colorful Dan. I also liked the Mr. Buy-a-vowel comment in a previous comment.<BR/><BR/>When I saw the pics I thought the church surely did not deserve the label, "whore church". Like I said previously, I have been to conferences where young ladies dress just as immodestly. I think people are just trying so hard to find something, anything to criticize.candyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088593538648596769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63402862622320786392008-01-14T05:51:00.000-08:002008-01-14T05:51:00.000-08:00Me, at the risk of being misrepresented — I honest...Me, at the risk of being misrepresented — I honestly wonder what pictures some of you are referring to as being so burstingly immodest. I only saw ones that featured dresses with hemlines that go pretty far in both directions. Did I miss something? (Which, if I did, believe me, that's really really okay with me... I'm just concerned that we offer criticism about real things, or nothing at all. I had looked at the pictures, shrugged, and then read all the vitriol in a few comments about immodesty, and wondered whether we'd seen the same pictures.)DJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471042180904855578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-62767011700108030862008-01-14T03:28:00.000-08:002008-01-14T03:28:00.000-08:004-given..I didn't think what you said was all that...4-given..<BR/><BR/>I didn't think what you said was all that bad. ;)Solameaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869424956571944997noreply@blogger.com