tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post7126884477635485384..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: Establish Elders [1]Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger96125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3764935207574907142009-03-26T04:08:00.000-07:002009-03-26T04:08:00.000-07:00And that's all the Catholic apologetics I can stom...And that's all the Catholic apologetics I can stomach, folks. Thread closed.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58358898047461204192009-03-26T00:05:00.000-07:002009-03-26T00:05:00.000-07:00Naturgesetz,From a salvation stand point think of ...Naturgesetz,<BR/><BR/>From a salvation stand point think of faith as the opposite of work. If God substitutes Himself for your sins and you offer your good deeds and works as having some sort of value in conjunction to His work. I think He would be pretty upset with that. Think how much more upset He would be if there existed a manufacturing facility that produced a large assortment of works and good deeds. <BR/><BR/>You know, good works and deeds aren’t bad in of themselves for they represent or identify us to one another. But as soon as a chair person in this manufacturing facility is declared and special redeeming values are given to these good works and deeds there is a problem. Now competition is created and the free substitute becomes devalued and attention is placed on another, further limiting the substitution to even fewer.philnesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04393311811604119321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87875327505351215282009-03-25T23:06:00.000-07:002009-03-25T23:06:00.000-07:00It is getting late here on the East Coast, and so ...It is getting late here on the East Coast, and so good night to all.naturgesetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268507379933286863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-74240073843330052392009-03-25T22:56:00.000-07:002009-03-25T22:56:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.naturgesetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268507379933286863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-26261980585078639842009-03-25T22:25:00.000-07:002009-03-25T22:25:00.000-07:00Now, I'm off to bed too, nighty-night.Now, I'm off to bed too, nighty-night.Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-79081974736031308022009-03-25T22:24:00.000-07:002009-03-25T22:24:00.000-07:00And once again; Rom 3:28For we hold that one is ju...And once again;<BR/> Rom 3:28<BR/><I>For we hold that one is justified by faith <B>apart</B> from works of the law.</I>Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58087145683373038832009-03-25T21:50:00.000-07:002009-03-25T21:50:00.000-07:00Sir Brass — scripture does not contradict scriptur...Sir Brass — scripture does not contradict scripture. But all scripture must be understood in the light of the rest of scripture. So to read certain verses in a way which effectively nullifies others is to misread the scripture.<BR/><BR/>And the canon of Trent to which I think you refer is not a repudiation of Paul's teaching, but of a misreading of it. It says, "If anyone says that a sinful man is justified by faith alone, meaning that no other cooperation is required to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not at all necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his will: let him be anathema." So it is not condemning what St. Paul said, but a very specific interpretation of what St. Paul said, and only that specific interpretation. For further insight, you can read chapters 6, "The Manner of Preparation," 7, "The Nature and the Causes of the Justification of a Sinner,"8, "The Correct Meaning of the Statement: The Sinner Is Gratuitously Justified by Faith," and 11, "The Observance of the Commandments: Its Necessity and Possibility," of the Decree on Justification, which concludes with the canons anathematizing doctrines contrary to those set forth in the various chapters. So Trent says that it is true that sinners are justified by faith, but that the saying can be misunderstood.naturgesetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268507379933286863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-3183515585770428002009-03-25T21:44:00.000-07:002009-03-25T21:44:00.000-07:00Naturgesetz, as much as I'm enjoying our dialogue,...Naturgesetz, as much as I'm enjoying our dialogue, I'm off to sleep, since it's <I>tomorrow</I> already here in NJ, and seeing as I'm a bit younger than you, I have an earlier bed-time! =;)<BR/><BR/>BTW, your answers weren't - on the surface, anyways - what the official RCC "Trentian" dogma would assert. But, I'm sure you're aware of that.....NoLongerBlindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00442745304762344386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80722878854080334492009-03-25T21:39:00.000-07:002009-03-25T21:39:00.000-07:00There is of course plenty of room for explanation ...<I>There is of course plenty of room for explanation of what these answers mean, and there are other ways one could express it. But I think they'll do for starters</I><BR/><BR/>natur, this is nonsense. <BR/><BR/>Yes, there is a difference between the heart of the individual and the heart of the collective. Jesus discouraged us from saying "Akim, you Muslim, you will burn in hell." But he doesn't discourage us from drawing inevitable conclusions from the truth that "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him" - ergo, true Muslims do not believe in Jesus, therefore, true Muslims face the fires of hell. This doesn't require a great deal of noodling to get it right, unless, of course, you're forced to defend a system that claims it cannot be wrong when, in fact, it has been proven wrong time and time again. You can't defend "there is no salvation outside the church" for half-a-dozen centuries and then say, oops, well, it's really open to multiple interpretations - just because the CC caught a whiff of a change in the political winds and cried out "the times they are a changin'." The doctrines of infallibility drove the stake the in ground and now RCC apologists have suddenly bent like pretzels to say what's there at face value really isn't there at all. <BR/><BR/>It's maddening as much as it is madness.Bradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03184505091838154270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-31722017314283044732009-03-25T21:35:00.000-07:002009-03-25T21:35:00.000-07:00No Longer BlindAbsolutely! Any time.<B>No Longer Blind</B><BR/><BR/>Absolutely! Any time.Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16077725810153491322009-03-25T21:31:00.000-07:002009-03-25T21:31:00.000-07:00Chad V--we'd make a good tag team!Chad V--we'd make a good tag team!NoLongerBlindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00442745304762344386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-24063573261483665442009-03-25T21:26:00.000-07:002009-03-25T21:26:00.000-07:00I write these things to you who believe in the nam...<I>I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.</I> 1 John 5:13Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-85925973176258846862009-03-25T21:25:00.000-07:002009-03-25T21:25:00.000-07:00Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word ...<I>Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.</I> John 5:24Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-37758643463087778042009-03-25T21:24:00.000-07:002009-03-25T21:24:00.000-07:00Naturgesetz - Thank you for answering my questions...<B>Naturgesetz</B> - Thank you for answering my questions.<BR/><BR/>As to your answer #2, the Apostle John, in the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, stated rather clearly that "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God <B>that you may know</B> that you have eternal life." (1 John 5:13)<BR/><BR/>So, it would seem that knowing is not only possible, but actually something that our Heavenly Father desires for His children.NoLongerBlindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00442745304762344386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-20020669117032102132009-03-25T21:21:00.000-07:002009-03-25T21:21:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.NoLongerBlindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00442745304762344386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53590140644103828592009-03-25T21:11:00.000-07:002009-03-25T21:11:00.000-07:00"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jes..."For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for <B>good works</B>, <I>which God prepared beforehand</I> <B>so that we would walk in them</B>."<BR/><BR/>Any <I>good works</I> that we, as believers do - which shows our faith to be <I>living faith</I>, not dead faith, devoid of works, as in James 2:17 - were prepared (beforehand) by God for us to do, unto His glory, not our gain; good works merely <I>validate</I> genuine, saving faith.NoLongerBlindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00442745304762344386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84702150218622959372009-03-25T21:05:00.000-07:002009-03-25T21:05:00.000-07:001. You must have faith* in the Lord Jesus.*Faith b...1. You must have faith* in the Lord Jesus.<BR/>*Faith being a reliance on the word of God which tells us that he is Lord and Savior who died and rose for our salvation and which transforms our lives by bringing us to repentance for sin and conversion of life. (It's not just an intellectual assent to certain doctrines. It is transformative if it's real.)<BR/><BR/>2. You can't "know" for a mathematical certitude, since God alone reads hearts; but if you are conscious of having a saving, life-altering faith — if you are *living* your faith — you have a secure hope of salvation.<BR/><BR/>There is of course plenty of room for explanation of what these answers mean, and there are other ways one could express it. But I think they'll do for startersnaturgesetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268507379933286863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-67386637532318230152009-03-25T21:00:00.000-07:002009-03-25T21:00:00.000-07:00Naturgesetz, to set scripture against itself is le...Naturgesetz, to set scripture against itself is less than honest if you truly believe it to be the Word of God. God does NOT contradict Himself in His Word. Also, James does not contradict Paul in any way. James states that by his works he SHOWS his faith, not that by his works he gains (in some extent) his salvation.<BR/><BR/>Also, when Christ is talking about being perfect, He is setting the standard to which we HAVE to attain if we are to be justified by works of the law. He is declaring the eternal impossible standard for us to hurdle if we are to make it on our own. Only Christ could be perfect, and thus in Him only is our righteousness.<BR/><BR/>Remember, that according to the works of the law and the jewish "magisterium", the apostle Paul (then the Pharisee Saul) was perfectly justified. Yet, Paul rightly calls those works <I>skubalon</I>, and nothing higher. Our works are utterly USELESS for our justification.<BR/><BR/>Remember those famous words of scripture, "The righteous shall live by faith." They performed works in response to their faith, yet it was not by their works that God declared them righteous. Remember that Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him righteousness. Abraham was saved by faith, not by his subsequent obedience in faith.<BR/><BR/>Human works are attested by scripture to have even LESS of an impact on one's salvation as putting cat ears on a human baby makes him a kitten.<BR/><BR/>By grace we were saved through faith, not by works so that no man may boast.<BR/><BR/>That is one of many of Holy Scripture's attestations to salvation by grace alone through faith. The RCC <I>says</I> that it counts Holy Scripture as infallible, yet it contradicts it directly by anathematizing that which Paul wrote. That is the very definition of double-minded.<BR/><BR/>The RCC councils declared a gospel different from that preached, and as Paul said, if even HE or others preached a different gospel that that different gospel, no matter WHO it came from was anathema. That most assuredly includes Trent, etc., etc.<BR/><BR/>The reformers clearly stood with scripture in condemning Rome for heresy and false teaching. And in a very real sense, the Westminster Confession was right in calling the Pope the anti-christ. Now, history bears out so far that the pope is not THE anti-christ, but in so far as he persists on enforcing Trent and other damnable documents he is operating in the spirit of the anti-Christ, not to mention usurper over consciences that rightly belongs to the Holy Spirit.<BR/><BR/>And as such, we who know the truth are calling those wedded to Rome to leave said harlot and join with the bridgegroom as part of the bride of Christ. Christ turns NO ONE away who comes to Him by faith. Turn from Rome and her councils, and embrace Christ and His mercy and grace.Sir Brasshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01893578064434019702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-2068132103569745632009-03-25T20:56:00.000-07:002009-03-25T20:56:00.000-07:00I never said the RCC teaches that works alone save...I never said the RCC teaches that works alone save. The RCC teaches that works plus faith save. <BR/><BR/>The bible says that we are justified by faith. Our works do not contribute to our salvation. Only Christ's finished work is our merit before God. By His work we are saved. That's why your gospel is false. <BR/><BR/>Gal 2:16 <I>yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. </I><BR/><BR/>Rom 5:19<I> For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.</I>Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72253547047567131992009-03-25T20:50:00.001-07:002009-03-25T20:50:00.001-07:00@naturgesetz:Two simple, straightforward questions...@naturgesetz:<BR/><BR/>Two simple, straightforward questions for you:<BR/><BR/>Suppose that I am a <I>non-christian</I>, i.e., a muslim or a buddhist, or whatever, it really doesn't matter.<BR/><BR/>I meet you, find out that you profess to be a "follower of Jesus Christ" -- a Christian -- and I ask you:<BR/><BR/>1. <B>"What must I do to be saved?"</B><BR/><BR/>2. <B>"How can I know if I <I>really</I> am saved?"</B><BR/><BR/>What would your answers be?NoLongerBlindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00442745304762344386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-6006438741600854992009-03-25T20:50:00.000-07:002009-03-25T20:50:00.000-07:00Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no flesh will be ...Rom 3:20<BR/><BR/> <I>For by works of the law no flesh will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.</I>Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63730497179640888552009-03-25T20:45:00.000-07:002009-03-25T20:45:00.000-07:00Chad V. — if the passage you quote and similar wor...Chad V. — if the passage you quote and similar words of Paul were all that there was in scripture on the topic, you might have a point. But they must be read in the light of such other passages as<BR/>Matthew 19:17 "If you would *enter* life, keep the commandments." Emphasis added<BR/><BR/>Matthew 25:34-43.<BR/><BR/>John 14:15 "If you love me you will keep my commandments."<BR/><BR/>John 15:10 "If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love."<BR/><BR/>1 John 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments."<BR/><BR/>and of course James 2:14-26<BR/><BR/>The point is you can't ignore the passages which speak of the necessity of works. It is the work of theologians to try to parse the subtleties of the relation between faith and works. What is clear from these passages, as well as the others where Jesus an Paul command certain behaviors is that faith and works must both be part of the life of the Christian. Any reading of scripture which ignores either the faith passages or the works passages will lead to a distorted theology. And again, the fine points of the precise wording that best expresses the elusive relationship are a matter for the trained theologians. Suffice it to recognize that the Christian needs both, and that the Catholic Church does not teach that works alone suffice for salvation. As I said to Sir Brass, The Catholic Church anathematizes both Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism.naturgesetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268507379933286863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-39313096800821597012009-03-25T20:19:00.000-07:002009-03-25T20:19:00.000-07:00Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are you saved, through fai...Eph 2:8-9 <BR/><BR/><I>For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift o God, not of works so that no one may boast.</I>Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-9833615549680315722009-03-25T20:16:00.000-07:002009-03-25T20:16:00.000-07:00Rom 3:28For we hold that one is justified by faith...Rom 3:28<BR/><I>For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.</I><BR/><BR/>The apostle Paul doesn't agree with you. You are in gross heresy.Chad V.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02478790778245966382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-42522224540686695952009-03-25T20:12:00.000-07:002009-03-25T20:12:00.000-07:00Sir Brass — We worship the consecrated Host becaus...Sir Brass — We worship the consecrated Host because Jesus told us it is himself in John 6 and his words at the Last Supper. You perhaps choose to interpret these passages other than literally. But I think it goes too far to accuse us of gross heresy when we believe, along with centuries of unanimity in Christendom, that the elements of the Lord's Supper are truly his Body and Blood.<BR/><BR/>You recognize that your accusation concerning Mary is your interpretation and contrary to our intent or our understanding of what we do. Again, I think it goes too far to accuse us of gross heresy if the worst you can say is that we are doing things which unbeknownst to us have a reality contrary to our intent.<BR/><BR/>And again, the wordsmithing of the relation between faith and works is a matter of such fine points that it hardly seems to me that anyone who understands that a Christian's life includes both can plausibly be accused of gross heresy. The Church anathematizes Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism. But you have to read Paul in the light of James and the parable of the judgment of the nations, and the many times Jesus says that one must keep the commandments if one is to inherit eternal life.<BR/><BR/>So while I can see how, for one reason or another, you may disagree with our doctrines or the phrasing used to express them, I cannot agree that we are in gross heresy. In fact, of course, I don't think we're in heresy at all.naturgesetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268507379933286863noreply@blogger.com