tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post7344272950049036380..comments2024-03-10T10:40:32.319-07:00Comments on Pyromaniacs: On the Piper-Warren ConnectionPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger233125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-72490208740604285872011-08-18T14:41:16.994-07:002011-08-18T14:41:16.994-07:00The old Landmark practice of "Pulpit Affiliat...The old Landmark practice of "Pulpit Affiliation" was a means of avoiding this very thing but "Landmarkism" was labeled as fundamental fanaticism at it's worst and quickly burned at the stake.<br />I've never been accused of being politically correct or gentle in rebuke so I'll close with this thought: Why are you surprised that it bit you? That's what snakes do when you pick them up.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04115998327301053099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-63758476123170997912010-04-28T05:03:48.845-07:002010-04-28T05:03:48.845-07:00Phil
Wouldn't you say that it is true that Ri...Phil<br /><br />Wouldn't you say that it is true that Rick Warren teaches a different Gospel? He teaches the unsaved that God is happy with them if they are doing what he made them for. He aligns himself with unbelievers, even blatant God haters i.e. the muslim faith (one example among many) and he maintains that we worship the same God! He omits the truth from his teaching and twists words to his own convenience!(and you know that these examples are just the tip of the proverbial iceberg!) <br />How is this not a different Gospel Phil?<br />While I too am cautious to apply Galatians 1: 6-10 it certainly seems that Warren is the exact person that this would apply to since it says; <br /><br />'if ANY MAN (capitalization via me.) is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!<br /><br />New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (Ga 1:9). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.<br /><br />It does not delineate between the saved and unsaved, brothers or non brothers, it applies to 'ANY MAN'! So, what say you?gigantor1231https://www.blogger.com/profile/13329932791380481665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-86093194195909311342010-04-25T23:18:35.287-07:002010-04-25T23:18:35.287-07:00http://contrast2.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/warre...<a href="http://contrast2.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/warren_piper.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://contrast2.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/warren_piper.jpg</a><br /><br />taken from <a href="http://contrast2.wordpress.com/2010/04/24/rick-warren-the-chameleon/" rel="nofollow">http://contrast2.wordpress.com/2010/04/24/rick-warren-the-chameleon/</a>Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15693380017090778540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-19134863739331629972010-04-21T00:01:23.277-07:002010-04-21T00:01:23.277-07:00In new model theology God's primary attribute ...In new model theology God's primary attribute is benevolence, which overrides and supersedes His holiness, justice, wrath, and sovereignty. The new-model God is a judge only in the sense of being a “defender of His people.” His sole concern is” the freedom and peace of the people.” Moreover, the new-model church is not to confront the world, but to make known the love of God, to say, “your sins are forgiven”, as Jesus did, and to offer the resources of the Spirit to all who want to learn how to love and enjoy God and their neighbors”<br /> If ever there was a user-friendly theology, this is it. But it is not biblical, and there is nothing really new about it. It is simply retreaded liberalism. These are the same arguments and the same teachings that liberals have promoted for years – only now they are designated “evangelical”. Don't let the label fool you. Spurgeon wrote, “It is mere cant to cry, “we are evangelical; we are all evangelical,” and yet decline to say what evangelical means. “ You may believe anything, everything, or nothing and yet be enrolled in the “Evangelical” army – so they say. Will there arise no honest, outspoken evangelicals among Dissenters to expose and repudiate this latitudinarianism? Are all the watchmen asleep? Are all the churches indifferent? <br /><br />User-friendly churches....Their approach to ministry is so undoctrinal that they cannot educate their people against subtle errors. Their hatred of controversy puts them in a position where they cannot oppose false teaching that masquerades as evangelicalism. In fact, new -model theology seems ideally suited to the user friendly philosophy. Why would the user-friendly church oppose such doctrines? <br /><br /> But oppose them we must, if we are to remain true to God's Word and maintain a gospel witness. Pragmatism does not hold answers to the dangers confronting biblical Christianity. Pragmatism is carnal wisdom – spiritually bankrupt and contrary to the Word of God. <br /><br />...The only hope is a return to Scripture and sound doctrine. As Evangelicals we desperately need to recover our determination to be biblical, our refusal to comply with the world, our willingness to defend what we believe, and our courage to defy false teaching. Unless we collectively awaken to the current dangers that face our movement, the adversary will attack us from within, and we will not be able to withstand. History will repeat itself, and the same disaster that ravaged the church a hundred years ago will strike our generation. <br /><br />“Yet surely, there must be some who will fling aside the dastard love of peace, and speak out for our Lord, and His truth. A craven spirit is upon many, and their tongues are paralyzed. Oh, for an outburst of true faith and zeal! ( Charles Haddon Spurgeon. May 1889)<br /><br />as Quoted from John McArthurs's book "Ashamed of the Gospel" third edition, pages 202, 203, the chapter entitled "Interlude"James Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03269259046967205676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80969928219670311842010-04-19T06:28:36.710-07:002010-04-19T06:28:36.710-07:00Gentlemen, as a Calvinist I am a firm believer tha...Gentlemen, as a Calvinist I am a firm believer that God has ordained Rick Warren to come and speak at the conference. Let's see what comes of it!Brian and Inna Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16698066872424613169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-80723113971664940302010-04-19T06:27:00.397-07:002010-04-19T06:27:00.397-07:00As a Calvinist I am a firm believer that the Lord ...As a Calvinist I am a firm believer that the Lord has ordained Rick Warren to come and speak at John Piper's church!Brian and Inna Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16698066872424613169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-37355056584932201052010-04-18T04:28:15.014-07:002010-04-18T04:28:15.014-07:00i'm just glad we can talk about it...i'm just glad we can talk about it...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14564818088849931479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-54159434797264545812010-04-16T06:36:36.925-07:002010-04-16T06:36:36.925-07:00Phil: Well said. This post was long but worth the ...Phil: Well said. This post was long but worth the time to read. It's a model of how to faithfully and publicly contend for the truth. It calls John Piper out without a hint of compromise, but the tone is respectful and brotherly. It is also a grown up and direct assessment of the danger men like Rick Warren represent to the clarity of the Gospel message.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07017243800760035177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-35737043119891665242010-04-16T06:27:51.199-07:002010-04-16T06:27:51.199-07:00I have deep respect for John Piper. I have deep re...I have deep respect for John Piper. I have deep respect for Phil Johnson...i would like to believe that Rick Warren is like pragmatic Apollos who needed a wise couple (Priscilla and Aquila to take him aside in private and "explain to him the Way more adquately".To be honest i think Rick can explain the gospel theologically to the dot at any given conference when put to the spot...but he just chooses not to because it will cause offence and its just not like him to rightly divide the word of truth.Do people get saved because of the pragmatism he exudes...well God can save anybody despite the preaching they hear.If God can use a donkey...he can use anybody in a multi coloured summer shirt...but it behooves us to handle the gospel with respect and truthfully...and not as hirelings.Somebody take Rick aside and have a good old chin wag...yeah purpose driven chin wag about the gospel. Acidri's Blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-38481566363519733132010-04-15T04:00:25.099-07:002010-04-15T04:00:25.099-07:00Hi Phil,
I have always have appreciated your even...Hi Phil,<br /><br />I have always have appreciated your evenhanded approach to difficult questions, and your comments above are helpful and edifying as always.<br /><br />I'm posting only a thought: you mentioned Paul's rebuke of Peter for changing seats. It's important for us to remember that in doing so, Peter was giving the impression that those uncircumcised Gentiles were "lesser brothers" or not "fully justified." He was violating the truth of justification by faith through a shrinking of the circle, not through a widening of the circle. He was saying, "The boundary is no longer repentant trust in Christ, it's repentant faith plus x." Piper's invitation of Warren is an invitation to someone who affirms orthodox soteriology, as has been pointed out, but who does not properly teach other true doctrines. I worry that in this case, Piper is the Paul and those who call for separation are the Peters.<br /><br />I don't like the way Warren teaches, and I think his ministry philosophy hurts people, and I hope his friendship with Piper will change the way he does his ministry, but firmly placing him outside the boundary of those with whom we can fellowship is risking a subtle fall into a "judaizing legalism."<br /><br />Grace & Peace,<br />Dan JulianDan Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05297575758867275721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-50686722902220468492010-04-14T13:59:11.940-07:002010-04-14T13:59:11.940-07:00Great article, Phil, and interesting discussion --...Great article, Phil, and interesting discussion -- I learned a lot about both Piper and Warren.<br /><br />What about the opposite scenario, where a liberal, non-evangelical church invites a conservative speaker? Apparently John MacArthur stopped by Memphis earlier this week, just before that T4G conference. Three large, very liberal, non-evangelical churches -- which are so open-minded they stand for nothing; they have women preachers and other practices MacArthur is clearly against -- got together and invited him to speak, and he spoke at a large United Methodist church. (I would like very much to see MacArthur in person, but between recovering from surgery last week and that this event would be too crowded, I didn't go -- maybe I'll get to see MacArthur when he comes to Little Rock sometime.) <br /><br />I'm not sure what to make of it, though, as I wonder what MacArthur spoke about to such a group -- and I don't understand the liberal mindset enough to know why they would have invited MacArthur in the first place. Anyway, if Rick Warren has any ability to negatively influence the people at John Piper's conference, perhaps MacArthur had a positive influence on some of the liberal people coming to hear MacArthur. Or maybe they just see him as a celebrity and like to hear him talk since they've seen him on Larry King or whatever?Lynda Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01755739519555633760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-8146826925912561692010-04-13T09:09:11.312-07:002010-04-13T09:09:11.312-07:00Phil,
I have a tangential question about some some...Phil,<br />I have a tangential question about some something mentioned in your blog article. You said, "Consider, for example, his fascination with "holy laughter" at the height of the Toronto Blessing—and his persistent reluctance to condemn that movement despite the vast damage it was causing."<br /><br />I have never seen any documentation for Piper being at all enamored with the Toronto Blessing, although I have seen words to that effect several times, including at SharperIron.org. I have been a member of Piper's church for decades and have not been aware of Piper's positive interest in the Toronto Blessing. Whether he ever outright repudiated it I do not know. Perhaps this is something I just never caught going by.<br /><br />Would you, or anyone here, please give me a link to some sort of documentation of Piper's being fascinated by or approving of the Toronto blessing?<br /><br />If it is not true, it would be well for people to not keep saying it. If I am wrong, I apologize for not believing it.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03206801530223646739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-10535718250908627962010-04-13T07:00:17.202-07:002010-04-13T07:00:17.202-07:00So for now, I regard him a disobedient brother a l...<i>So for now, I regard him a disobedient brother a lá 2 Thessalonians 3:14.</i><br /><br />Phil,<br />Thanks for that very balanced and well written answer to Gabby. Both your post and your answers in the comboxes are grounded in the word and have the right balance of both apologia (apologetics, truth, doctrine, sound theology) and agape (love, gentleness, grace). I Peter 3:15; Jude 3, 21<br /><br />Ken Temple<br />fellow FIRE memberKenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-75031208557622777892010-04-13T00:48:47.208-07:002010-04-13T00:48:47.208-07:00At my blog, I have never, even once censored a com...At my blog, I have never, even once censored a comment. And even in the face of some of the vilest and most foul-mouthed retorts imaginable.<br /><br />I believe in two things: free speech, and enough rope.<br /><br />Maybe Piper is just giving the guy an opportunity to out himself so that we do not have to do it. Maybe he just believes in giving a guy a fair shake. Either way, while I'm not real pleased with the decision, I can't really find a lot of fault as I am in no way qualified to judge.<br /><br />This conference, I think it is safe to say, is attended to and by those who are likely mature enough to reason correctly and will be minimally impacted by Warren's bull, and may even have their faith strengthened through confirmation of long held suspicions - straight from the horse's mouth.<br /><br />As I say in my blog's "comments disclaimer", I think fools speak best when they speak for themselves. So sally forth, Warren. Break a leg... just make sure it's your own.Kirby L. Wallacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01825673333919420557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-58061477690645251122010-04-12T18:22:10.688-07:002010-04-12T18:22:10.688-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-90835998192545461922010-04-12T18:12:33.512-07:002010-04-12T18:12:33.512-07:00TUAD,
Yeah, the thread has probably dried up . . ...TUAD,<br /><br />Yeah, the thread has probably dried up . . . but what an amazing thread it was.<br /><br />I think there IS a possible win here. Rick Warren can stand up at the conference and REPENT PUBLICLY for distorting the Gospel. He can recant his wrongs and declare his intention to set out on a new, Biblical course - perhaps stepping down from his church for a season. Piper would then be vindicated entirely.<br /><br />Repentance is a always a win (at least for the repenter and all who cherish the Truth).<br /><br />Blessings,<br />DerekTHEOparadoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03214982083585956095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-84069290877883603092010-04-12T18:00:00.330-07:002010-04-12T18:00:00.330-07:00This thread is probably dead by now, but I just wa...This thread is probably dead by now, but I just wanted to write something that occurred to me.<br /><br />All this criticism of Piper and Warren have set up a can't win situation for Piper and Warren.<br /><br />Suppose Warren gives an eminently suitable sermon or message that meets or exceeds DG reform orthodoxy.<br /><br />The Warren critics will simply discount it by saying that Warren is just being his usual chameleon self with his file cabinet orthodoxy. Warren and Piper can't win.<br /><br />Suppose Warren gives a "lousy" message or sermon. Then the critics will say, "See, I told you that John Piper shouldn't have invited Rick Warren."<br /><br />So whether Rick Warren delivers a terrific message or a lousy message, he can't win, and neither can John Piper. It's not nice to be put in a can't-win situation.<br /><br />--------<br /><br />Another thought: Rick Warren could offer to decline the invitation after having accepted it. This takes John Piper off the hook, and stops all the hard-hitting and harsh criticism of Piper.<br /><br />And if you were Piper, would you accept Rick Warren's declination to speak at DG 2010?Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-53085980909586246632010-04-12T17:48:36.454-07:002010-04-12T17:48:36.454-07:00Nice balanced assessment. Thank you! May the Lord ...Nice balanced assessment. Thank you! May the Lord be glorified!Me :)https://www.blogger.com/profile/05526801998599807493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-7460243119205177412010-04-11T19:25:52.012-07:002010-04-11T19:25:52.012-07:00Phil:
Yesterday you posted a comment and from th...Phil: <br /><br />Yesterday you posted a comment and from the Bible, <b>2 Thess. 3:14</b> in particular made a somewhat personal application of that passage to what Piper did with the invite to Warren. This was the excerpt from your comment from <i><b><a href="http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2010/04/on-piper-warren-connection.html?showComment=1270935628644#c4195496717140296083" rel="nofollow">April 10 @ 2:40pm</a></b></i><br /><br />“<i>Yet, as noted above, I think Rick Warren’s ministry philosophy is deplorable, as is his willingness to tone down or avoid the hard truths of the gospel (which he nevertheless affirms as true). So for now, I regard him a disobedient brother a lá 2 Thessalonians 3:14</i>.”<br /><br />This morning I interacted with you on that Scriptural principle in a sincere and non-abrasive manner.<br /><br />But now either you or maybe one of your blog partners pulled my comment(s) that addressed the Scripture you brought to bear on what Piper has done with Warren. Why? Why is the Scriptural approach deemed unfit for this discussion? <br /><br />I’d appreciate some indication why you or a Pyro blog partner had these comments on <b>2 Thess. 3:14</b> expunged from the thread. Is a Scriptural application forbidden ground in this discussion? I know its not, but then why was ours deleted?<br /><br /><br />LM<br /><br />PS: My second comment with the link to my blog I did say that if you wanted to delete I’d understand that, but why does a frank discussion of what the Bible says, in my first, which you raised have to be removed from view along with yours?Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-44836680393949838592010-04-11T17:11:29.334-07:002010-04-11T17:11:29.334-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-48277604685756382492010-04-11T16:57:21.051-07:002010-04-11T16:57:21.051-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-66530429628402917022010-04-11T09:58:22.886-07:002010-04-11T09:58:22.886-07:00Hey don't be a Jonas Bros hater! Those guys lo...Hey don't be a Jonas Bros hater! Those guys love Jesus. Why can't a "love song" be sung to Jesus? I've heard Travis Cottrell sing John Denver's "You fill up my senses" to Jesus. If Warren wants to "headline" the Jonas Brothers, where is the sin in that?Yvonne Wilberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08927158133812130080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-87186050969209062002010-04-11T04:25:21.355-07:002010-04-11T04:25:21.355-07:00From all observations Rick Warren considers himsel...From all observations Rick Warren considers himself a bridge builder to lost people a la Billy Graham. That has led him to seriously compromise on many levels.<br /><br />John Piper seems to be very charitable, which can lead to some levels of compromise in practice as well. The entire thing is just another manifestation of the current Christian mess.Rick Fruehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-6341906227326922052010-04-11T03:10:04.621-07:002010-04-11T03:10:04.621-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21212024.post-16170685249243824692010-04-11T03:00:43.364-07:002010-04-11T03:00:43.364-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.com